How far have you gone?

[Dust Raven]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

To me that is less toolkitting than changing a cost to enforce a game genre. It doesn't fit the genre to have many people with hugely divergent speeds' date=' the easiest way to do that in HERO is to change the cost of SPD - cost benefit changes away from SPD to other things. [/quote']

 

Actually, the easiest way would be to set character creation guidelines that simply state what range of SPD (or any other characteristic/power/etc) is allowed.

 

I might have missunderstood, but it seemed that Phil said he pretty much used the rules to modify existing characteristics to arrive at his costs, which I assume means he rolled some extra stuff in with SPD to make it cost more then normal.

 

I'm gonna drop the rest of the arguement in favor of Von D-man's explination.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

Perhaps the question we should be asking is: how modular is hero? And how many core components do you have to have to still call it hero?

 

Er...six?

[Vanguard00]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

I have a whole chest of tools at home, but I haven't built anything from scratch, nor taken things apart to put them back together in completely different ways. I tinker and repair, or sometimes just tighten things up a bit as needed.

 

That's pretty much how I view the 'toolkit' aspect of Hero.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

Er...six?

Nah. Fourty-two.

[Dust Raven]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

Er...six?

 

times nine?

 

 

EDIT:

Nah. Fourty-two.

 

Um... nevermind.

[Susano]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

Seventeen!!!

[Dust Raven]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

The clouds never expect it when it rains

But the sea changes colours

But the sea does not change

And so with the slow graceful flow of age

I went forth with an age old desire to please

On the edge of...

 

Seventeen!!!

[Mister E]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

Comliness is a Talent.

Comliness would make a sweet Talent. How did you build this?

[Susano]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

Comliness would make a sweet Talent. How did you build this?

 

If I made it into a Talent, I'd buy it as levels with certain Interactive skills and/or PRE; "Only To Impress/Dazzle".

 

Which would make it more expensive than COM, but then, you'd be buy it in lots, not 1 point at a time.

 

Hmm.... borrow an idea from GURPS and have 3 levels or so -- Attractive, Beautiful, Drop Dead Gorgeous (or something like that).

[SuperKlaus]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

I have erased COM and let players who seriously want being attractive (beyond even what's expected in a hero) to be an asset to their character buy it as a Reputation Perk. 2 pts per level for "big potentially affected group," that being "all members of the opposite sex and homosexuals of your sex," 14- to be recognized (I think of the randomness factor as allowing for differences in taste; a character might conceivably buy lower if he or she wanted to be attractive in some kind of funny way), and then the usual +1 to Interaction Skills and +1d6 to appropriate PRE Attacks per level bought!

 

I think it's quite elegant and offers concrete benefits compared to silly old COM. You guys?

[Susano]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

I think it's quite elegant and offers concrete benefits compared to silly old COM. You guys?

 

I think it would have been nice for 5th Edition to specifically allow COM to affect Interaction Skill and PRE attacks instead of making it an optional suggestion.

 

OTOH, your method works well.

[RDU Neil]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

Absolutely. I agree. However, I think that the marketing highlights one of the major advantages that HERO has over other systems in its ability to be manipulated at a fundamental level to achieve what the GM wants in his game.

 

Doc

 

 

And maybe this is the real point of Hero...

 

It is not a toolkit.

 

It is not a system... (though one has been created and labeled as Hero)

 

 

Hero is a conceptual framework.

 

I was going to call it a methodology... but that implies specific steps of moving through the framework, and cataloguing that process has been officially frowned upon. (I think some of us want that Methodology to be explicit... I do for one... when we talk about "What is Hero.")

 

The Conceptual Framework involves all the things we've talked about in many threads...

- the base human template, thus the need for charcteristic-like building blocks to exist

- the "more points mean more power" and the converse, defenses subtract damage and more points mean more defense"

- and a million other concepts

 

 

An example of this would be something like "SPEED is a characteristic which is used to determine how often the human template character can make a meaningful game action"

 

Thus, using SPD to determine which Phase you go on the Speed Chart is legitimate...

 

... but so is using SPD in conjunction with an initiative roll to determine when a character "goes" is legitimate Hero.

 

Hero does define many (not all) of what is possible to "do" in a meaningful game action (call it a phase or whatever) and sets the framework for how various actions and character interactions take place in a mechanical way.

 

That conceptual framework involves the use of a bell curve probability for performing an action.

 

Etc.

 

So... IMO only of course... while I use the system built and published with Hero in most ways, what I find most core about Hero is the conceptual framework and the implied methodology for creating entirely new "game elements" or reinterpreting game elements... so they provide the play I want.

[Mister E]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

If I made it into a Talent, I'd buy it as levels with certain Interactive skills and/or PRE; "Only To Impress/Dazzle".

 

Which would make it more expensive than COM, but then, you'd be buy it in lots, not 1 point at a time.

 

Hmm.... borrow an idea from GURPS and have 3 levels or so -- Attractive, Beautiful, Drop Dead Gorgeous (or something like that).

Looks good.

 

I think I'm more into the randomness of how it works as an Attribute right now, being a Complimentary Skill. It seems to really capture the spark of attraction that is connected with the way people look, and the reaction of the people who are looking at them. Not everyone is attracted to the same things, after all.

 

Julia Roberts, for instance, doesn't really do it for me; though I would give her a chance to impress me in other ways.

[Black Rose]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

I have erased COM and let players who seriously want being attractive (beyond even what's expected in a hero) to be an asset to their character buy it as a Reputation Perk. 2 pts per level for "big potentially affected group," that being "all members of the opposite sex and homosexuals of your sex," 14- to be recognized (I think of the randomness factor as allowing for differences in taste; a character might conceivably buy lower if he or she wanted to be attractive in some kind of funny way), and then the usual +1 to Interaction Skills and +1d6 to appropriate PRE Attacks per level bought!

 

I think it's quite elegant and offers concrete benefits compared to silly old COM. You guys?

I like this a lot. As you said, it offers a concrete benefit, which is what makes COM-as-is so friggin' useless. It costs about what "+5 Com" would cost, and the 14-/11-/8- setup allows for someone being appealing in a non-universal way (short, curvy redhead, forex). I like this, and feel it should

1. be included as an "official option" in 6th Ed, or
   
2. be the new standard.
   

[Dust Raven]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

I think it would have been nice for 5th Edition to specifically allow COM to affect Interaction Skill and PRE attacks instead of making it an optional suggestion.

 

OTOH, your method works well.

 

As a matter of fact, Steve Long thought it would have been nice as well. As a rule, you may make COM rolls as a complimentary skill to some uses Interaction Skills.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

As a matter of fact' date=' Steve Long thought it would have been nice as well. As a rule, you may make COM rolls as a complimentary skill to some uses Interaction Skills.[/quote']

Yeah, I kinda assumed everyone handled it that way. If not, then yes COM would be useless from a mechnics standpoint.

OTOH, a player in my last group has never run a character with PRE or COM above 10 because he considers them both to be "useless stats."

[ghost-angel]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

PRE useless.... I can break that syntax error in four phases or less.

 

As for COM as a Talent... I'd build it along the lines of Reputation.

 

The better the COM/Rep roll the more people find you inherently attractive and give bonuses to skills used against/with them.

 

Along those lines...

[Susano]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

OTOH, a player in my last group has never run a character with PRE or COM above 10 because he considers them both to be "useless stats.":nonp:

 

Heh... from a RP standpoint, his COM 10 guy might be the last to be noticed by the ladies, which might put a damper on his fun in social settings.

 

As for never buying PRE above 10, I can see him missing a lot of Phases when the villains show as well as not being able to convince even "normals" to do what he needs.

[Vondy]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

Comliness would make a sweet Talent. How did you build this?

 

I have erased COM and let players who seriously want being attractive (beyond even what's expected in a hero) to be an asset to their character buy it as a Reputation Perk. 2 pts per level for "big potentially affected group," that being "all members of the opposite sex and homosexuals of your sex," 14- to be recognized (I think of the randomness factor as allowing for differences in taste; a character might conceivably buy lower if he or she wanted to be attractive in some kind of funny way), and then the usual +1 to Interaction Skills and +1d6 to appropriate PRE Attacks per level bought!

 

I think it's quite elegant and offers concrete benefits compared to silly old COM. You guys?

 

Well, its not as original as I thought it was... I used this method, though susano's would work well too.

[SuperKlaus]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

Well' date=' its not as original as I thought it was... I used this method, though susano's would work well too.[/quote']

 

Conclusion: we're all awesome!

[bigdamnhero]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

Heh... from a RP standpoint, his COM 10 guy might be the last to be noticed by the ladies, which might put a damper on his fun in social settings.

 

As for never buying PRE above 10, I can see him missing a lot of Phases when the villains show as well as not being able to convince even "normals" to do what he needs.

Yeah, the player (good friend tho he is) has fairly marginal social skills himself (yeah, a gamer with low social skills, I know you're all shocked) so I don't think he has the slightest idea how to use COM and PRE in a character. I once ran a Cassanova-type character whose whole schtick was absurdely-high PRE and COM, just to disabuse him of the notion; the character wound up unbalancing the campaign so badly that we had to retire him prematurely, and my friend still couldn't see any use for PRE or COM. What're ya gonna do?

 

[Edit: Oh, I should point out that the GM allowed you to use either EGO or PRE to resist PRE Attacks, so he didn't need the PRE for defensive reasons.]

[Zeropoint]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

Sit him down with a few volumes of the "Oh! My Goddess!" manga. After he's read them and asks you what the big deal is, point out the effects of Belldandy's +40 PRE, Only for "Nice" Purposes.

 

Nausicaa from "Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind" is also a good example of what a high PRE can do for you.

 

Get enough PRE, and it's almost like having a low-level, non-hostile, no-negative-side-effects mind control.

[Susano]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

Sit him down with a few volumes of the "Oh! My Goddess!" manga. After he's read them and asks you what the big deal is' date=' point out the effects of Belldandy's +40 PRE, Only for "Nice" Purposes.[/quote']

 

Belldandy also has the power of "make her cry and the universe will come get you"

 

OHM also has high-COM (24-28+) and high-PRE (20, easy) Urd, who can give everyone fits once she turns the sex appeal on. Keichii's able to resist only because he's gotten used to it and seen the end result of most of her schemes.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How far have you gone?

 

Get enough PRE' date=' and it's almost like having a low-level, non-hostile, no-negative-side-effects mind control.[/quote']

I wouldn't say, "no-negative-side-effects." A creative GM can come up with plenty of side effects and collateral, "damage," for a powerful Pre Attack.