Help with spell construction

[Doc Democracy]

I am trying to construct a spell but need some ideas from the boards.

 

The spell, when successfully cast, demoralises the opponent. This is an old RuneQuest spell and the effects there were that it made the victim reluctant to act in a postive fashion. The victim could attack but at half effectiveness but could defend at full value.

 

My head is stuck on a PRE suppress/drain etc.

 

Any bright ideas out there?

 

 

Doc

[L. Marcus]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

. . . My first thought was a PRE Drain, myself . . . Or maybe a Mind Control? "Only to make subject hesitate," or "Only to make subject act defensively," putting all (if any) CSLs on Defence . . .

[schir1964]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

I am trying to construct a spell but need some ideas from the boards.

 

The spell, when successfully cast, demoralises the opponent. This is an old RuneQuest spell and the effects there were that it made the victim reluctant to act in a postive fashion. The victim could attack but at half effectiveness but could defend at full value.

 

My head is stuck on a PRE suppress/drain etc.

 

Any bright ideas out there?

 

Doc

Seems like this would oddly enough be PRE purchased as power that costs END to use against an opponent as independent PRE attack.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

Seems like this would oddly enough be PRE purchased as power that costs END to use against an opponent as independent PRE attack.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

 

Ooh! I like this, it would probably work the right way as well....

 

 

Doc

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

Seems like this would oddly enough be PRE purchased as power that costs END to use against an opponent as independent PRE attack.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

My first thought was also Presence Attack. Probably Limited so that a character only suffers combat-related penalties (i.e. no commands). Alternatively you could alter the result of a successful Presence Attack to cause only the specific combat penalties you want, as a -0 Limitation.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

My only problem with the PRE attack idea would be that the spell is supposed to last for five mnutes and PRE attacks have an inbuilt decreasing effectiveness.

 

The spell should last for 5 minutes - any ideas on longevity? Or are we back to the PRE drain/suppress to ensure the attack remains potent?

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

Having never played Runequest I am not familiar with this spell, but from your description, while it sounds like a PRE attack, mechanically it really is a more like a Drain vs. DEX or something similar.

 

Mind Control might do nicely too (one command, "Defend only or attack at half OCV", which I would probably give a limitation of -1 since you can get a -½ for "stand perfectly still"). This keeps it a mental power which is in keeping with the sfx.

 

Another possibility would be Darkness, 1 hex, Contining charges lasts 5 minutes, does not affect PER only CV (-½). Since it doesn't affect PER, we assume you always make a PER roll, which puts your DCV at full and OCV at half. The only problem here is that you would have to cover all targeting senses (maybe you could skip mental ones since this has a mental sfx).

 

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"I didn't forget; I just wasn't paying attention." - R.C.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

...mechanically it really is a more like a Drain vs. DEX or something similar.

 

But only for offensive actions? never thought of limiting drains like that before!

 

However the dex drain would not engender the reluctance to act positively.

 

Mind Control might do nicely too (one command' date=' "Defend only or attack at half OCV", which I would probably give a limitation of -1 since you can get a -½ for "stand perfectly still"). This keeps it a mental power which is in keeping with the sfx.[/quote']

 

This is a possibility though I've always hated Mind Control for some irrational reason...

 

Another possibility would be Darkness' date=' 1 hex, Contining charges lasts 5 minutes, does not affect PER only CV (-½). Since it doesn't affect PER, we assume you always make a PER roll, which puts your DCV at full and OCV at half. The only problem here is that you would have to cover all targeting senses (maybe you could skip mental ones since this has a mental sfx).[/quote']

 

And there is another off the wall approach which is why I love the boards - they make you break out of the comfort zone interpretation of the rules. Again perhaps this doesn't tackle the reluctance to act positively but it does provide another option.

 

Thank you.

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

Negative OCV levels. Fits the bill: lowered offensive capability, and you'll be inclined to go defensive because attacks will be pointless.

 

Won't substantially effect AoE attacks though.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

I am trying to construct a spell but need some ideas from the boards.

 

The spell, when successfully cast, demoralises the opponent. This is an old RuneQuest spell and the effects there were that it made the victim reluctant to act in a postive fashion. The victim could attack but at half effectiveness but could defend at full value.

 

My head is stuck on a PRE suppress/drain etc.

 

Any bright ideas out there?

 

 

Doc

 

Define "half effectiveness"? Half their OCV? Half the damage? Half the chances to hit? Forced to make an 10- Activation Roll to attack? What?

 

My first impression was a PRE Drain/Suppress, but that would just make the character susceptible to anyone's PRE Attacks, which wouldn't make sense. A demoralized character isn't made more easily pliable, just anti-enthusiastic about getting the job done.

 

I also thought about a powerful PRE Attack, but as you mentioned, the results are usually temporary and extremely limited (unless the effect is completely outrageous, the target might lose a Phase and nothing more).

 

I think Sean has it with something Negative Skill Levels, but without knowing exactly what half effectiveness means, it's hard to suggest what exactly would be affected.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

Define "half effectiveness"? Half their OCV? Half the damage? Half the chances to hit? Forced to make an 10- Activation Roll to attack? What?

 

Here's what the text of the Runequest rulebook says:

 

The victim loses faith in the ability of himself and his party to win the fight' date=' find the treasure, rescue the princess, or whatever. He can still defend at full but attacks at half value. The victim will not use offensive magic. The advantage of the spell is that you can attack a demoralised foe without affecting the spell. Essentially it softens an enemy up for the kill. If it takes place before combat a demoralised foe will not attack unless ordered to. If faced with a superior force, he will probably run or surrender. [/quote']

 

Doc

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

You are welcome for the input. I love the give and take on the boards, and quite frankly had you not asked the question, I would not have thought of the build, which I think I will now have to use for my own campaign...

 

Now having read the Runequest text, how about a Change Environment "demoralizing zone" which would require an EGO check to attack at "full strength", however you want to define that. For a single target it would look like

 

Change Environment, 1 hex, demoralizing zone, EGO roll at -4 to attack at full strength, 4 charges last 5 minutes each, cost 17pts

 

This makes high EGO people more resistant, which seems to be in the flavor of the spell to me. And although it doesn't work absolutely, it will put most victims at an EGO of 7- which is fairly effective. Given the nature of it, you might want to make PRE a complimentary roll.

 

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"No comment." - anonymous

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

Cool.

 

First off although the spell mentions suddenly not being interested in rescuing the princess, the main descriptive emphasis is on combat effect.

 

OK.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if a Change Environment might not be appropriate here? You could manage some penalties and define it as either a field of gloom or single target.

 

It's an idea.

 

To actually make someone not want to go on a quest, find the treasure etc you will probably need a mind control or transform.

 

To make someone just a bit rubbish in combat, negative skill levels, dex drain (limit: only for offensive actions -1), or better yet.....

 

If you drain INT below 0 then the character has to make an INT roll to decide to do something different...a limited INT drain (only counts for non-defensive actions) might fit the bill. Similarly you could do a limtied EGO drain (low ego means you can't be bothered. You could have a multiple characteristic drain (DEX, INT and EGO) which would make you listless and rubbish at attacking things. Limit the total drain from DEX to half the characteristic.

 

How's that?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

My only problem with the PRE attack idea would be that the spell is supposed to last for five mnutes and PRE attacks have an inbuilt decreasing effectiveness.

 

The spell should last for 5 minutes - any ideas on longevity? Or are we back to the PRE drain/suppress to ensure the attack remains potent?

 

Well, by the description of Presence Attacks in the book there really isn't an "inbuilt decreasing effectiveness" other than for repeated Presence Attacks. There's only a time limit of one Turn given to the extra resistance against contrary Presence Attacks, but nothing about the duration of any other effects. In fact I once asked Steve Long about lingering effects of Presence Attacks on the Rules Questions forum, and his answer seems to me to give you lots of leeway to make the effect last your desired five minutes:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11574

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

Drain 1d6 10 points

 

INT, EGO and DEX simultanously (+3/4)

 

Continuous, uncontrolled, 1/2 END (+1 3/4)

 

Fade rate 5/5 minutes (+1/2)

 

40 points (2 END)

 

Limited efffect -1/2: Drain ONLY takes effect to prevent the character taking 'positive' or offensive actions

 

Final cost 27 points

 

OK you cast the spell, which involves investing 2 END per phase of drain you want to take place and let it go; it leeches away the will and ability to take actions of a 'positive' nature, but allows the target to defend themselves normally. Obviously normal 'spell' limitations will make this much cheaper in practice.

 

So, say you put in 12 END, you get 6 phases of drain. This means that over the next 6 phases the target loses (on average) 7 DEX, 10 EGO and 21 INT, as far as any 'positive' or attacking action is concerned. If the INT/EGO goes below 0 they have to make rolls to take intitiaive or new actions of a positive nature at all. The drain also affects the ability to cast offensive spells.

[David Johnston]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

 

However the dex drain would not engender the reluctance to act positively.

 

 

 

This is a possibility though I've always hated Mind Control for some irrational reason...

 

 

Well like it or not, Mind Control is one of the better ways to control someone's mind. But there is an alternative. You could go with a Mental Transform: Into a Coward. That will ensure that the character will put all of their skill levels into defense, and will choose manuevers focussed more on staying unhurt than on dealing out damage, and will try to get away from the fighting if they can. Then just set the heal rate so you can count on them retaining their Psych Lim: Coward for a few minutes.

[Black Rose]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

OK you cast the spell' date=' which involves investing 2 END per phase of drain you want to take place and let it go... So, say you put in 12 END, you get 6 phases of drain. [/quote']

Is this how END spending is supposed to work? I was under the impression you paid out each Phase.

 

If it works like this, a lot of my spell/technique writeups can be changed to reflect a lower cost....

[Zeropoint]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

What that spell describes is pretty much the effects of depression.

 

It's hopeless.

You can't win.

Give up.

Cut your losses.

Quit before you harm yourself further.

 

I'd go with either mind control, or a Transform to temporarily give the target a new Psych Lim. A Suppress PRE might work, too.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

Here's what the text of the Runequest rulebook says:

 

 

 

That doesn't help much with the exact effect. I'm not familiar with Runequest so I don't know how attacks are handled or what the text means by "attacks at half value" means. Is it referring to damage, hit probability or the number of attacks the character makes? Perhaps something else?

[David Johnston]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

That doesn't help much with the exact effect. I'm not familiar with Runequest so I don't know how attacks are handled or what the text means by "attacks at half value" means. Is it referring to damage' date=' hit probability or the number of attacks the character makes? Perhaps something else?[/quote']

 

In Runequest you attacked by making a percentage die roll. The spell would reduce your percentage chance to hit from, say, 60% to 30% because you can only attack tentatively.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

Is this how END spending is supposed to work? I was under the impression you paid out each Phase.

 

If it works like this, a lot of my spell/technique writeups can be changed to reflect a lower cost....

 

 

It was made uncontrolled, so once cast you need have nothing further to do with it. At casting you feed END into the power to create a pool to 'fuel' it. That's all you have to do - the power then consumes the END you fed into it until it is all gone, which is why 0 END is often frowned on for uncontrolled powers.

 

The idea of this spell is NOT that you get stupid, weak willed and shaky, but that you simply can't use your natural abilities effectively to take 'positive' or offensive action and have no inclination to do so - check out the effects of negative characteristics.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

The other problem is 'half value attacks' are meaningless in Hero as we have a bell curve. Assuming that you had an 10- chance of hitting originally then you halve your chance of hitting with a -2!

 

On a 12- you need -3 to halve your chance to hit. On anything higher you'll need a -4.

 

You can't therefore exactly emulate the spell, but the best combat emulation would be (say) 3 negative levels for 15 points. You'll need a seperate mechanic for the 'can't be bothered' bit though, and if you want it to be instant the only real option is mind control: transform would have to be huge to accomplish it in one pop. Even MC is problematic - it will have to be quite big and if you manage to do ANYTHING positive, it breaks the control.

 

How long does this spell last?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

How long does this spell last?

 

Haven't you been paying attention? 5 minutes.

 

In RuneQuest any battle magic spell that wasn't instant had a 5 minute duration.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

As a long time Runequest player, I'm familiar with the demoralize spell. I'm kinda going back and forth on what would be the best effect to simulate it. I'm leaning towards a weird change environment myself (Can you make CE Accurate?), perhaps with a linked PRE boost. Second choice would probably be Seans negative CSL's, linked with some Offensive PRE and perhaps a PRE drain.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help with spell construction

 

That doesn't help much with the exact effect. I'm not familiar with Runequest so I don't know how attacks are handled or what the text means by "attacks at half value" means. Is it referring to damage' date=' hit probability or the number of attacks the character makes? Perhaps something else?[/quote']

 

Well. I suppose in the spirit of translation, I'm not looking for an exact match in mechanics (often not possible) but one in spirit.

 

This is a short duration softening up attack, often used by cavalry troops on formations they are about to charge.

 

If you weren't thinking RuneQuest and one of your players in a Fantasy Hero came to you with that text idea for a spell, what would you suggest.

 

As you say, half effectiveness in Hero is likely to mean much more than half effectiveness in other systems. Sean noted that it wouldn't be practical to do the half attack percentage that RuneQuest uses.

 

In Runequest it effectively reduced your chance to hit while making you much less likely to take part in any aggressive actions (pretty much under GM fiat).

 

 

Doc