Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

 

If a player was worried that a battle was taking too long' date=' and wished to conserve END, it's always an option to hold back Damage Classes. Late in a battle, this would certainly simulate decreasing damage due to exhaustion.[/quote']

That's true, `tho in my experience I have rarely seen players voluntarily pull their punches like that; they tend to go all-out until they drop. If they have to save END they might take an extra REC now and then, but voluntarily do less damage?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

 

These are (super-)heros' date=' man! The more tired they become, the harder they push themselves. That should be allowed. The character just won't last as long as if they cut back a little and spend less End. The choice is completely up to the player. I think the system does fine here without any modification at all. If you want to throw in some LTE use, it can help with some flavor. [/quote']

 

Well, as this is on the Hero System forum we're probably looking at approaches applicable to the more "realistic" genres. If you were actually running something like a prizefighting or pitfighting scenario, you'd expect effects of exhaustion to factor in. And for a couple of medieval types in full armor whacking each other with broadswords, it just stands to reason if the fight drags on.

 

Besides, you never know when you'll get a hankering to run "Normal Shmuck HERO."

[Mike W]

Re: Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

 

so, here we have the character. Say hes a brick or boxer, whatever you like. He's slugging away..and slugging, and slugging. He is out of END. He burns stun for end. He's almost about to drop, one more punch wll do that. He's tired beyond all belief. His opponent should be shruggign off hsi now feeble blows...

 

But his llast punch is just as powerful as his first!

 

If you wanted to simulate the power of a personal end using attack decresing due to exhaustion, how would you do it?

 

My thought: Ego rolls: you don't want to make reduction automatic, because that takes away the 'heroic burst of energy in the face of collapse' factor. But if one wants to put a bit more realism in, maybe an Ego roll works.

 

Down to last 1/4th end: Ego roll, +3. Going below 0 END: Normal Ego roll.

 

Below half stun: Ego roll -1; Single Digit Stun -3. Will go unconscious Ego Roll -5.

 

Maybe those last modifiers are too harsh--maybe just make it -2 below half stun.

 

Failing the ego roll means you drop 1 DC for every point you miss the ego roll, or a certain number of active points. (5?)

 

Thoughts? Alternatives? Hurled rotten fruit and vegetables?

 

Mechanically, this works pretty well I think, at least for Superheroes. I'd hate to see this on a "realistic" scale like Pulp or Fantasy HERO where a lot of people only have 12- EGO rolls and 5-6 DCs to begin with. Could get ugly fast.

 

I think the bigger question with such a mechanic is whether it fits the campaign tone. To me, it doesn't fit a Four Color campaign very well. Maybe a Dark Champions/Street Level game it would work though. I think that too often we are so caught up in the "realism" of a situation that we overlook the fantasy element. I mean, how much Comic Book Science really makes sense if you know much about the science it is supposedly based on. Probably not much, but then, the classic schtick of the Pulps(and old time comics were basically pulp serials, superheroes were a minor genre for a long time and borrowed some of the science as they grew) was that the science only had to "sound good". If it passed the basic sniff test of, "that sounds plausible" to a person with a high school education, it didn't matter if the science behind it was really a bunch of hooey. Of course, the fact that hardly any of the Comic Book Science can be found in the real world should be a hint as to how good the science really is.

[Mike W]

Re: Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

 

Well, as this is on the Hero System forum we're probably looking at approaches applicable to the more "realistic" genres. If you were actually running something like a prizefighting or pitfighting scenario, you'd expect effects of exhaustion to factor in. And for a couple of medieval types in full armor whacking each other with broadswords, it just stands to reason if the fight drags on.

 

Besides, you never know when you'll get a hankering to run "Normal Shmuck HERO."

That "Normal Shmuck HERO" comment reminded me of the Normals Unbound supplement from 4th edition. Great little book. I had a lot of fun with it last time I ran in the Champions Universe. I'm slowly rebuilding a version of that universe, going through old books and adding things, rearranging teams(because I find that on many of the villain teams I like about half the members and can't stand the other half), and adding in my own characters. Now if I could just figure out where I put Classic Enemies...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

 

If a player was worried that a battle was taking too long' date=' and wished to conserve END, it's always an option to hold back Damage Classes. Late in a battle, this would certainly simulate decreasing damage due to exhaustion.[/quote']

Exactly.

That's true' date=' `tho in my experience I have rarely seen players voluntarily pull their punches like that; they tend to go all-out until they drop. If they have to save END they might take an extra REC now and then, but voluntarily do less damage? [/quote']

Well, one would hope that players (and their characters) learn better tactics from such mistakes. Seriously, taking a Recovery is pretty risky unless you have some momentary safety. You can always play that up. You can also always give hints that hopefully the players will pick up on over time. This might be a good place to apply the Tactics skill, too.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

 

That "Normal Shmuck HERO" comment reminded me of the Normals Unbound supplement from 4th edition. Great little book. I had a lot of fun with it last time I ran in the Champions Universe. I'm slowly rebuilding a version of that universe' date=' going through old books and adding things, rearranging teams(because I find that on many of the villain teams I like about half the members and can't stand the other half), and adding in my own characters. Now if I could just figure out where I put Classic Enemies...[/quote']

Isn't that what the up and coming Everyman sourcebook is supposed to be about? I'll have to go back and read the description again.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

 

Well' date=' one would hope that players (and their characters) learn better tactics from such mistakes. [/quote']

[Wally Shawn voice] "You'd like to think that, wouldn't you?!" [/Wally Shawn voice]

 

Seriously' date=' taking a Recovery is pretty risky unless you have some momentary safety. You can always play that up. You can also always give hints that hopefully the players will pick up on over time. This might be a good place to apply the Tactics skill, too.[/quote']

All true. In my games, the more common solution tends to be reducing one's SPD to conserve END, under the theory that one full-strength attack is more likely to overcome the target's defenses than two 1/2-strength attacks. (Unless it's a mook-smackdown.)

 

Obviously I agree that this wouldn't be appropriate for all genres and all campaigns. But I think you could plausibly include it in a four-color bronze-age campaign. I can think of any number of Spider Man fights where Spidey's always complaining "I'm so tired, my arms are so heavy, I'm not even hurting him..." until he digs deep into his soul (ie - makes his EGO roll) and summons up One Last Big Punch. I don't think I'd invoke it until the character is below 0 END, tho.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

 

That's true' date=' `tho in my experience I have rarely seen players voluntarily pull their punches like that; they tend to go all-out until they drop. If they have to save END they might take an extra REC now and then, but voluntarily do less damage? [/quote']

I've occasionally had a character pull his attacks to save on END early on, then when the other guy stopps dodging and blocking because he thinks my attacks are whimpy, I break out the full power blast (possibly pushing) and take him out. That really doesn't have anything to do with getting tired though does it?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

 

Seriously' date=' taking a Recovery is pretty risky unless you have some momentary safety. [/quote']

 

It's not really risky, as it doesn't have any effect until the start of your next Phase, and at any point during that time you can abort the Recovery to defend yourself (instantly bringing you to full DCV plus the effects of whatever defensive maneuver you perform). All you lose is an opportunity to attack and increase the chances of a successful surprise attack against you.

[casualplayer]

Re: Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

 

Maybe once you are out of END it should require an EGO Roll to use anything more than Casual STR? Of course, then we would have to figure out what Casual EB is.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

 

I've occasionally had a character pull his attacks to save on END early on' date=' then when the other guy stopps dodging and blocking because he thinks my attacks are whimpy, I break out the full power blast (possibly pushing) and take him out. That really doesn't have anything to do with getting tired though does it?[/quote']

Not a bad tactic, tho.

 

Of course' date=' then we would have to figure out what Casual EB is.[/quote']

Well, if casual STR is 1/2 your full STR, it seems logical that Casual (Power) is 1/2 the full power. Hmm...seems "Casual Power" could have plenty of implications outside of fatigue...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

 

Well, if casual STR is 1/2 your full STR, it seems logical that Casual (Power) is 1/2 the full power. Hmm...seems "Casual Power" could have plenty of implications outside of fatigue...

 

I think "Casual Power" should be made into an official rule. Sweep was extended from just with STR to with any maneuver (though it's called Rapid Fire for ranged attacks) and even Haymaker is applicable to anything. Why not extend Casual STR to everything else as well?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

 

Remember that there is always Haymaker, which can be a little more difficult to pull off if the combatants are still being tricky, and can leave you vulnerable, but can be really nice as it doesn't cost extra End. So you scale back the number of DCs and/or Str a bit to reduce the End Cost but use a Haymaker to make up for the lack of damage. I've done that once or twice on the very rare occasions that End has become precious.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

 

Its really not that difficult to accomplish. You define a house rule that a character must make a CON or EGO Roll (their choice) to burn STUN for END.

 

If they can't make the roll, they can't burn the STUN and thus can only use as many points of STR as they have END to pay for at the time.

 

This forces the player to start husbanding their END and not throw everything they've got into every swing, trying to save up enough spare END for a big salvo.

 

You see boxers do this all the time, jab a little and stall to get their wind back.

 

Of course this is a perfect example of where realism and excitement diverge. If you are looking for a gritty, realistic game it works, but if you are looking for a fun, fast paced, cinematic game it doesn't.

 

You also have to consider the people angle. Nobody likes to see a fight come down to a decision based on points -- everybody wants to see a knockout.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

 

Remember that there is always Haymaker' date=' which can be a little more difficult to pull off if the combatants are still being tricky, and can leave you vulnerable, but can be really nice as it doesn't cost extra End. So you scale back the number of DCs and/or Str a bit to reduce the End Cost but use a Haymaker to make up for the lack of damage. I've done that once or twice on the very rare occasions that End has become precious.[/quote']

Hmm... Not sure I'd allow this as a GM. No offense, but it sounds kinda munchkiney to me. While there may be nothing specifically in the rules to prevent it, I think going for The Big Swing (Haymaker) while simultaneously Holding Back (lowering DCs) fails the common sense check. YMMV.

 

Its really not that difficult to accomplish. You define a house rule that a character must make a CON or EGO Roll (their choice) to burn STUN for END.

I'd say EGO roll - higher CON is already reflected in the higher STUN rating. But then I tend to prefer having more than one stat come into play; tends to encourage better-rounded characters IMO.

 

If they can't make the roll' date=' they can't burn the STUN and thus can only use as many points of STR as they have END to pay for at the time.[/quote']

So if someone is below 0 END, they either make the roll or can't attack at all? I dunno, that's a little too severe for my taste. I like the idea of allowing reduced-power attacks if they fail the roll.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

 

Hmm... Not sure I'd allow this as a GM. No offense' date=' but it sounds kinda munchkiney to me. While there may be nothing specifically in the rules to prevent it, I think going for The Big Swing (Haymaker) while simultaneously Holding Back (lowering DCs) fails the common sense check. YMMV.[/quote']

As you will, but I think it simulates the situation quite nicely. You're too tired to put much real muscle behind the swing, so you have to haul back and build as much momentum for your punch as you can, leaving yourself a bit open in the process.

[Mister E]

Re: Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

 

Passing out from exhaustion is so romantic...

[Mike W]

Re: Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

 

Isn't that what the up and coming Everyman sourcebook is supposed to be about? I'll have to go back and read the description again.

 

I think Everyman is a bit of an expansion on the concept, but I'm not sure. Normals Unbound was basically a character book like any other(e.g. - Classic Enemies, Allies, etc) except that all of the characters were "normals" few had any real powers. They were almost all "regular" folks, or at least people who could pass for "regular" folks. They had full stats, bios, and in some cases, campaign use ideas. I appropriated several for one of my campaigns back in college.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

 

As you will' date=' but I think it simulates the situation quite nicely. You're too tired to put much real muscle behind the swing, so you have to haul back and build as much momentum for your punch as you can, leaving yourself a bit open in the process. [/quote']

You know, the more I think about this the more I think you may be right. I tend to think of Haymaker as The Big Punch, but it's really about The Big Windup. When you're too tired to throw a normal punch you're forced to use the windup, which has it's own downsides.

 

OK, I withdraw the objection. Not like you were waiting on my permission.

[Mister E]

Re: Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

 

As you will' date=' but I think it simulates the situation quite nicely. You're too tired to put much real muscle behind the swing, so you have to haul back and build as much momentum for your punch as you can, leaving yourself a bit open in the process. [/quote']This works for me, too.

[Talon]

Re: Simulating decreasing damage due to exhaustion:

 

I used an Exhaustion rule in a Fantasy Hero game that was very successful (as in, the players praised it even though it often hosed them). I don't have the full rule handy, but it went like this:

 

1) You get penalties (OCV, DCV, Skill/Characteristic Rolls) for being below 3/4, 1/2, and 1/4 END (-1, -2, -4 respectively).

 

2) You can ignore the penalties by spending more END (2x END to ignore one level, 3x END for two, etc.)

 

3) Maintaining full DCV costs 1 END (which counts as using STR, so if you make a STR-based attack this is a wash)

 

4) No Recovery after the initial Segment 12 of a fight.

 

The results felt very realistic: people would get tired, "fresh" reinforcements entering a fight had a big advantage, and PCs would often use less than full STR in order to conserve END.