Ruling on this situation...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Eh? Equal and opposite reaction. The only real affect being in the air is going to have is halving the momentum of the thrown character (which probably shouldn't do much to the range of the Throw if it is straight down). Otherwise why should it be treated any differently from a Throw executed on the ground? I see no system reason. You normally cannot use Flight to counter a Throw; once you are thrown your movement is uncontrolled until you hit (or, I suppose, if you reach the max range of the Throw and don't hit anything provided you get a Phase before hitting the ground or Abort to hover; whatever).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

I think the player is within his rights to take off with a opponent. I think the rules state that a player can only use 2 points of STR per 1" of flight.

 

So a 10" flier with 40 STR can only use 20 STR to lift targets. But a 10" flier with 20 STR can use all of his strength, and a 15" flier with 20 STR can only use his 20 STR, not 30 STR.

 

Afraid not. Without a limitation on the Flight (or the Strength), you can lift everything while flying that you can while standing. So, if you got a 60 STR, you got access to all 60 STR while airborne.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Eh? Equal and opposite reaction. The only real affect being in the air is going to have is halving the momentum of the thrown character (which probably shouldn't do much to the range of the Throw if it is straight down). Otherwise why should it be treated any differently from a Throw executed on the ground? I see no system reason. You normally cannot use Flight to counter a Throw; once you are thrown your movement is uncontrolled until you hit (or' date=' I suppose, if you reach the max range of the Throw and don't hit anything provided you get a Phase before hitting the ground or Abort to hover; whatever).[/quote']

You are correct that Superman's/Hyperion's flight (assuming an altitude higher than 2") would not counter a throw made by a LEAPING Grundy/Hulk (edit: who grabs and throws on the same phase as the leap). That's a different situation because Grundy/Hulk is in control of his movement. I'm talking about Grundy/Hulk grabing Superman/Hyperion while he is on the ground. Superman/Hyperion then flies into the air with Grundy/Hulk hanging on to keep from falling.

 

Let's put it another way.

 

If Grundy/Hulk goes outside of a Blimp and 'grabs' the exterior can he now throw the blimp to the ground? Let's assume that the non-boyant mass of the blimp is within the lifting range of Grundy's/Hulk's STR.

 

Grundy/Hulk might go flying but that blimp isn't going to move more than a few feet at best.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Ever try throwing a ball while treading water? You get very little power because you can't brace against the ground and put all of your body's strength into the throw. It's like that for the guy without flight when trying to throw someone while falling through the air. Sure, stronger is better, but you still get only a fraction of your true strength.

 

Of course, that's totally not true for the guy who does have flight... he can brace himself against his own acceleration, and use his whole body in the throw.

 

It's strictly in house rules territory, but I'd put anyone who didn't have flight at 1/2 strength for any manuvers while flying/falling.

 

-Nate

[prestidigitator]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

 

Ever try throwing a ball while treading water? You get very little power because you can't brace against the ground and put all of your body's strength into the throw. It's like that for the guy without flight when trying to throw someone while falling through the air. Sure, stronger is better, but you still get only a fraction of your true strength.

 

Of course, that's totally not true for the guy who does have flight... he can brace himself against his own acceleration, and use his whole body in the throw.

 

It's strictly in house rules territory, but I'd put anyone who didn't have flight at 1/2 strength for any manuvers while flying/falling.

Sure. I've played plenty of water games. Actually the issue is that it is hard to maintain kicking and throw at the same time. You usually get the most from kicking very hard for a moment to get yourself as high as possible and the stop while you put everything into the throwing motion. So with analogy it should actually be harder to throw while you are flying than if you simply allow yourself to fall while throwing. Actually with many SFX of flight (wings, or thrusters used to levitate) a flying thrower would not realistically be able to brace himself for a throw; the mechanics would be the same, but after the throw the flyer could make up for the motion imparted to himself.

 

And from a physics standpoint, it isn't at all that you can only, "put all of your body's strength into the throw." The difference is that, while you accelerate something while standing you can use the force of friction to have the equal and opposite reaction affect the whole Earth along with you, so you don't move. While the final relative velocity you impart to the thrown object while flying is the same, you wind up moving backward some and so the absolute (well relative to the Earth as a reference point) velocity of the object will be less.

 

Imagine two balls of mass 'M' and 'm' with a compressed (but unconnected) massless spring between them in a horizontal orientation. We'll call the velocity imparted to mass 'm' if mass 'M' is anchored to a table 'v0'. Now let the masses free fall. What is the velocity 'v' of mass 'm' (the projectile) and 'V' of mass 'M'? Well, the relative velocity is going to be the same [(EDIT: I can go through that derivation for the spring example if you like, but perhaps you will take my word on at least that part for now)]:

 

 

v - V = v0

 

but now, rather than 'M' being stationary we have to use the conservation of linear momentum:

 

 

m v + M V = 0

 

 

 

m v + M (v - v0) = 0

 

(m + M) v - M v0 = 0

 

v = v0 M / (M + m) = v0 [1 - m / (M + m)]

 

So the more mass the thrower ('M') has compared to the throwee ('m'), the closer the absolute velocity 'v' of the throwee becomes to the velocity that would be imparted from a ground throw ('v0'). If the thrower and throwee are of equal mass, then:

 

 

v = v0 / 2

 

That's not the same as half Str; it is the same as half the extra Str that is used to determine throwing distance. A vertical throw would actually be no different except that both masses would also be accelerating downward throughout the process (but throws happen instantaneously in Hero, so we can neglect that anyway).

 

Now this is neglecting any resulting angular momentum, but any angular momentum imparted (say to the thrower) is going to depend on how the throw is executed. Throw like a baseball? You might wind up spinning afterward. Throw like a basketball? It's going to be minimal. Stand on top and leap upward? It's going to be negligible if your balance is decent.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

 

If Grundy/Hulk goes outside of a Blimp and 'grabs' the exterior can he now throw the blimp to the ground? Let's assume that the non-boyant mass of the blimp is within the lifting range of Grundy's/Hulk's STR.

 

Grundy/Hulk might go flying but that blimp isn't going to move more than a few feet at best.

See my above post and note that if a blimp is the projectile (and presuming Grundy/Hulk is a lot less massive than the blimp; an assumption that may or may not hold):

 

 

M << m

 

v = v0 M / (M + m) ~= 0

 

Also note that the air resistance for a blimp is enormous, so even if significant velocity were imparted initially, the blimp is going to decelerate to very little velocity almost immediately.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Wow....thanks for the response everyone. A perfect example of why I come to the boards for advice. Generally, I don't mind this tactic being used once in a while, but I found it a bit...silly...that Flight basically was used as a "immune to Grab" power, which I doubt was the intention. But, I think you all managed to cover most of the angles on the subject. Again, my thanks to all who answered.

 

Rob

[prestidigitator]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

 

Wow....thanks for the response everyone. A perfect example of why I come to the boards for advice. Generally' date=' I don't mind this tactic being used once in a while, but I found it a bit...silly...that Flight basically was used as a "immune to Grab" power, which I doubt was the intention. But, I think you all managed to cover most of the angles on the subject. Again, my thanks to all who answered.[/quote']

No problem. Now, if you'll excuse us we'll probably go on heatedly debating it for a while even if the original questions were addressed.

[gojira]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Afraid not. Without a limitation on the Flight (or the Strength)' date=' you can lift everything while flying that you can while standing. So, if you got a 60 STR, you got access to all 60 STR while airborne.[/quote']

 

Are you sure? I don't have FREd, but I know it's in the older rules, because I'm looking at it right now.

 

"A flying hero can't always use his full STR while flying. The amout of STR the hero can use is equal to the number of points of Flight the hero has."

 

It's in the section on movement and game scale, not in the power description itself. If this has been removed, I'm inclined to call it an editing mistake.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

5er definitely changed that rule. If you want to define your characters flight active points as the limit to what he can carry you now just take a limitation.

 

 

with regard to my earlier Grundy/Hulk vs. Superman/Hyperion example lets take it into space where gravity and air resitance are irrelevant.

 

astronauts on the 1st Hubble repair mission were only able to do their job because of the leverage they had by fixing their feet to the robot arm (anchored to the shuttle and telescope. they could move the massive parts into and out of the Hubble with ease because of this. they also trained months in underwater tanks.) A non-flyer trying to impart any controlled momentum to a grabbed object with its own source of flight that is strong enough to lift the non-flyer is almost pointless.

 

Hulk at his strongest (see Secret Wars 1: lifting a mountain!) is NOT going to do didly to the momentum of a Saturn V Rocket at takeoff while just holding on to it. He can smash the rocket for sure (having to hang on with one hand while banging away with the other) or he can hold on to something else anchored to the ground and the rocket too but even Hulk at his HIGHEST strength has no leverage if he is just holding on to the rocket in this situation. Superman HAS been shown to be able to affect something as large and as powerfull as a Saturn V. Ergo: Hulk grabs and squeezes Superman, Superman Flies. Hulk can squeeze or let go, period. He effectively has no other options.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

astronauts on the 1st Hubble repair mission were only able to do their job because of the leverage they had by fixing their feet to the robot arm (anchored to the shuttle and telescope. they could move the massive parts into and out of the Hubble with ease because of this. they also trained months in underwater tanks.)

Indeed. It is difficult to move things around in a careful and controlled fashion when moving them also tends to move you in the opposite direction. If we are simply shoving/throwing something in some direction we don't really care if we are moved in the opposite direction (actually it may be a good thing in this case).

A non-flyer trying to impart any controlled momentum to a grabbed object with its own source of flight that is strong enough to lift the non-flyer is almost pointless.

 

Hulk at his strongest (see Secret Wars 1: lifting a mountain!) is NOT going to do didly to the momentum of a Saturn V Rocket at takeoff while just holding on to it. He can smash the rocket for sure (having to hang on with one hand while banging away with the other) or he can hold on to something else anchored to the ground and the rocket too but even Hulk at his HIGHEST strength has no leverage if he is just holding on to the rocket in this situation. Superman HAS been shown to be able to affect something as large and as powerfull as a Saturn V. Ergo: Hulk grabs and squeezes Superman, Superman Flies. Hulk can squeeze or let go, period. He effectively has no other options.

I'm sorry, but comic book drama is rarely governed by the laws of physics. There is no, "leverage," required to shove something away from you, and if you can impart enough force (yes, a matter of mere strength alone, as unbelievable as you seem to find it) it is going to impart significant movement. Go skydiving and try it sometime.

[actingkeith]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

I found it a bit...silly...that Flight basically was used as a "immune to Grab" power

And I think that this is the root of your 'problem'

 

The player was not using Flight as an 'immune to Grab' power... rather he was using the non-limited power of Flight fully within the scope of the rules.

 

You as the GM made the error of reading into the rules of Grab that somehow Grabbed characters were held down...

 

...completely untrue. What they are is held. And that's all they are... the Grabber can do damage every phase, and restrains limbs. That's all.

 

HERO System rules are very well written, literarily speaking. They've evolved and been critically considered over the course of 25 years. The words tend to mean exactly what they say, nothing more, nothing less, and all the logical consequences that follow from their meaning tend to be reasonably intended.

 

Peace,

 

-keith

[gojira]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

5er definitely changed that rule. If you want to define your characters flight active points as the limit to what he can carry you now just take a limitation.

 

Something to add to the house rules then....

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

 

Indeed. It is difficult to move things around in a careful and controlled fashion when moving them also tends to move you in the opposite direction. If we are simply shoving/throwing something in some direction we don't really care if we are moved in the opposite direction (actually it may be a good thing in this case).

 

I'm sorry, but comic book drama is rarely governed by the laws of physics. There is no, "leverage," required to shove something away from you, and if you can impart enough force (yes, a matter of mere strength alone, as unbelievable as you seem to find it) it is going to impart significant movement. Go skydiving and try it sometime.

 

1/2 of his Grundy/Hulk's normal standing throw velocity is the maximum potential of any throw he could peform while currently holding on to an otherwise stationary but flying Superman/Hyperion. That potential could only be reached if he can manuever his body with the skill of a trained astronaut (Spider-Man might have the raw DEX to do it) Grundy/Hulk as shown in the comic books is not that coordinated.

 

Ok, go sky dive with a falling locomotive. It is several times your mass. Whether or not you can lift it while on the ground makes little difference on how much velocity you can give it by 'throwing' during the fall. You will go flying for sure but like a bullet being fired from a gun at high speed the gun/train will get very little kick in return.

 

nice change of tactics btw. if the physics argument fails use bad comic writing as a support.

[Silbeg]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

 

And I think that this is the root of your 'problem'

 

The player was not using Flight as an 'immune to Grab' power... rather he was using the non-limited power of Flight fully within the scope of the rules.

 

You as the GM made the error of reading into the rules of Grab that somehow Grabbed characters were held down...

 

...completely untrue. What they are is held. And that's all they are... the Grabber can do damage every phase, and restrains limbs. That's all.

 

Now, a grabber with Clinging could be a different story...

Say a 60 STR Brick, grabs the flyer while Clinging to the ground? The Flyer would now need to exceed 60 STR to fly (I'd probably make it an opposed STR roll, much like a grab escape attempt).

 

Also, since Fly-boy is pounding himself into the ground (assuming the ground ain't gonna give), he, and his grabber, should take full damage.

 

Is that what was happening?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

 

Ok' date=' go sky dive with a falling locomotive. It is several times your mass. Whether or not you can lift it while on the ground makes little difference on how much velocity you can give it by 'throwing' during the fall. You will go flying for sure but like a bullet being fired from a gun at high speed the gun/train will get very little kick in return.[/quote']

Not quite, Hyper-Man. The energy you impart will be divided between you and the locomotive. The same force that sends you flying will only nudge the locomotive. That's because the locomotive has so much more mass than you.

 

The Hulk trying to "throw" a Saturn V while said rocket is lifting off isn't necessarily incapable of doing so...but the amount of force he needs to impart to throw the rocket should also send him over the horizon. (Plus the path the rocket actually follows is going to be a vector sum of the impulse the Hulk imparts to it and its own thrust.) Is the Hulk strong enough to significantly alter the course of the Saturn V, even at the cost of tossing himself over the horizon? I don't know.

 

The crux of the matter, though, is it's NOT impossible, but because the energy in the "throw" is divided equally between the two interacting objects, and it takes a hellacious amount of energy to nudge a rising Saturn V off course, you'd have to have a very strong character to do it.

 

(The point of training in a water tank for conditions during a spacewalk has also been brought up, because in many ways it mirrors what you'd encounter duirng a space walk. The water alone, for example, won't provide enough resistance on your body if you're trying to turn a stiff bolt -- you'll turn yourself instead unless you're anchored somehow. Now, in that context, if you want to insist that a small, powerful object can't possible move a larger one when they're both in "free fall" [or floating free in this case] you should immediately head towards the largest seaport you can find and start explaining to the tug boats why they can't possibly be moving those cruise ships and oil tankers around, since the big ships are so much more massive than the tugs.)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Dr. A,

I agree with you. I said 'very little' in my example. You explained the point I was trying to make in that regard far better.

 

The tugboat analogy doesn't really have any bearing on the current discussion. The tugboat still has it's own source of movement (swiming, only on surface in HERO terms) in the same medium (water).

 

Give Hulk a large enough set of external wings to flap and he now has a medium (air) to push against. without something like that he is the proverbial fish out of water while hanging on to a flyer since his primary movement abilities are running and leaping which both require the use of some ground-like surface to push off from to use.

[David Johnston]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

1/2 of his Grundy/Hulk's normal standing throw velocity is the maximum potential of any throw he could peform while currently holding on to an otherwise stationary but flying Superman/Hyperion. That potential could only be reached if he can manuever his body with the skill of a trained astronaut (Spider-Man might have the raw DEX to do it) Grundy/Hulk as shown in the comic books is not that coordinated.

 

Ok, go sky dive with a falling locomotive. It is several times your mass. Whether or not you can lift it while on the ground makes little difference on how much velocity you can give it by 'throwing' during the fall. You will go flying for sure but like a bullet being fired from a gun at high speed the gun/train will get very little kick in return.

 

nice change of tactics btw. if the physics argument fails use bad comic writing as a support.

 

Well first of all, the flying character being discussed isn't stationary. He's diving toward the ground. The damage he'll take if this idea works isn't determined by how far his opponent can throw him. It's determined by the move-through he'll be doing on the ground. The extra movement he gets from being "thrown" is probably inconsequential by comparison except insofar as it may keep him from pulling out in time. He is also not many times the mass of the person holding him. He's about the same mass or less. Possibly much less.

 

And of course we are speaking of a genre where lasers do knockback.

[actingkeith]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Now' date=' a grabber with Clinging could be a different story...[/quote']It's a completely different story under the rules... so why try to inject it into the discussion??

 

The guy is trying to come to grips with a single, narrow bit of rules interpretation. Let him get it, practice it, and become comfortable with it before you go throwing exceptions at him...

 

-k

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

"A flying hero can't always use his full STR while flying. The amout of STR the hero can use is equal to the number of points of Flight the hero has."

5er definitely changed that rule. If you want to define your characters flight active points as the limit to what he can carry you now just take a limitation.

Huh, I guess I'd never even noticed that change. It doesn't make much sense to me; anyone have an idea why it was changed?

Let me Defender as an example. The servos in his suit (STR aid) allow him to pick up 6400kg in his arms. But his flight comes from his boot jets (seperate power) which provide enough thrust to lift him off the ground and fly at a rate of 20". If he's trying to fly while carrying more than himself, the thrust the boot jets are putting out is going to have to overcome more resistance, resulting in a slower flying rate. What do his arm-servos have to do with the equation? If the idea is that he can divert power from the servos to his jets, it should probably have been built as a flexible-slot Multipower.

 

I used this specific example because it was easy to seperate the sfx and the powers. Flight and strength typically come from different effects, so it doesn't make sense (to me) to tie them together that way. Yes I know: I'm free to house-rule it or tack on a limitation. But I seek...understanding.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Huh' date=' I guess I'd never even noticed that change. It doesn't make much sense to me; anyone have an idea [u']why[/u] it was changed?

Let me Defender as an example. The servos in his suit (STR aid) allow him to pick up 6400kg in his arms. But his flight comes from his boot jets (seperate power) which provide enough thrust to lift him off the ground and fly at a rate of 20". If he's trying to fly while carrying more than himself, the thrust the boot jets are putting out is going to have to overcome more resistance, resulting in a slower flying rate. What do his arm-servos have to do with the equation? If the idea is that he can divert power from the servos to his jets, it should probably have been built as a flexible-slot Multipower.

 

I used this specific example because it was easy to seperate the sfx and the powers. Flight and strength typically come from different effects, so it doesn't make sense (to me) to tie them together that way. Yes I know: I'm free to house-rule it or tack on a limitation. But I seek...understanding.

you just said yourself that the sfx is defining the limitation and sfx can be used to explain nearly anything.

 

the powers themselves do not have this built in by default. let's create a hero with native flight like superman. give him density/gravity control powers. he also has flight. there is nothing in the HERO rules that say his Flight is reduced when using Density Increase although the player could take that as a limitation if he wanted to. Special Effect is player/gm choice. the rules are fairly neutral sfx. some abilities showing the superhero orgin of the game (the word 'powers' for example). Kitty Pryde and Vision from Marvel comics both have Desolidification based flight whose sfx is essentially them becoming lighter than air. The would definitely take a heavy limitation on their flight. Iron-Man probably has the boot jets calibrated to handle anything he can lift off the ground but they might use more fuel under heavy load (extra end).

[actingkeith]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Huh' date=' I guess I'd never even noticed that change. It doesn't make much sense to me; anyone have an idea [u']why[/u] it was changed?

I have no idea what the rationale was, sorry.

 

Let me user Defender as an example...

Real Life and Real Physics have nothing to do with the game mechanics. The rules say that you can fly, carrying up to your STR, period. Stop thinking about it.

 

How that Flight works with your character (or in your game world) is completely up to you (and/or your GM). Maybe Defender's Boot Jets have a Force Governor on them that keeps velocity to an arbitrarily safe speed, so that they put out more force when the mass they need to lift is greater...

 

The SFX and the Mechanics are completely separate.

 

Peace,

 

-k

[tesuji]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Ok let me jump in with DEVIL's ADVOCATE stance here and invoke comic book physics.

 

Superman steps in front of speeding bus and stops it.

OK supes can fly so... thing does it.

Thing grabs helocopter and pulls it down to the ground, with both hands.

etc

etc

etc

 

Hulk and thing are fighting and thing tries to walk away and hulk brabs him and normal in comics is or the thing to need to break the grip before walking away... he doesn't just shrug, start walking with the grabby hulk being carries along squeezing away.

 

Sure, ir defies physics that IF the thing can pick up a truck and walk with it that the 100 lb maybe hulk grabbing on does anything to prevent thing from just walking away with a living breathing hulk carried along like a back pack.

 

Just like nothing in grab says "you cannot fly with him" it also doesn't say "you cannot walk with him".

 

Would you be proud or embarrassed to describe hulk-grab-thing followed by thing-walk-calmly-away-with-hulk-riding-piggyback in your games?

 

Some would be proud and cite real physics, others would think it silly and counter genre.

 

six million dollar man pulls down choppers before breakfast with his one bionic arm.

 

So as a part of genre, should "grab-halts-movement" or counters movement be considered? Maybe a strength vs movement power thing?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Thing stopping a truck on the ground is fine. Thing grabbing the Hulk can be used to keep Hulk from walking away if Thing just lifts Hulk off of his feet. (this is all moot once Hulk gets angry of course.)

 

Thing keeping a helicopter from taking off is actually 2 contests in one.

1. Can he hang on? That is can he lift his own mass with one or two hands? (easy, yes!)

 

2. Can the helicopter lift the extra mass of the Thing? (Depends on the helicopter. some can lift light tanks.).

**note**

In neither case does Things maximum STR come in to play. The only way for that to occur is for him to simultaneously grab an anchoring object on the ground so that he becomes the 'chain' linking the anchor to the helicopter. The Helicopter's lifting maximum is still the overall governing factor since Thing could try holding on to a street lamp that the helicopter might be powerfull enough to uproot.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

you just said yourself that the sfx is defining the limitation and sfx can be used to explain nearly anything.

Absolutely right. But my point is that the sfx of strength and flight (the effects, as opposed to STR and Flight the Powers) are seperate far more often than not. Really, I'm having trouble coming up with a single example of where they WOULD be linked. Wings, jet-packs, gravity manipulation, being lighter-than-air, telekinesis, magic floating disks, poorly-defined energy trails coming out your backside... what do any of them have to do with the size of a character's biceps?

 

Real Life and Real Physics have nothing to do with the game mechanics. The rules say that you can fly' date=' carrying up to your STR, period. Stop thinking about it.[/quote']

Sure. Except that it doesn't make sense to me as a game mechanic either. Linking STR to Flight makes no more sense (to me) than linking, say, PRE and Teleportation. Sure, I could probably come up with some sort of sfx where a character's ability to teleport is dependant on their PRE; but that would be the exception, not the rule.

 

Not trying to be argumentative; just genuinely don't get it.