Ruling on this situation...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

on a side note...

 

It might be easier to think of non-limited flight as an 'adder-like' power with regard to STR. This is essentially how non-limited (Spider-Man) Clinging works.

 

Rhino tries to pull Spider-Man away from the brick wall he's clinging to.

 

1. Rhino first must grab Spidey.

2. Assuming that he's able to lay a hand on him he now has to beat Spidey's 40-45 STR Clinging to the wall.

3. Can the wall take the load? Spidey can resist with 10 tons of force but the wall will probably crumble.

 

Big bulky massive bricks who affect flying characters or vehicles are usually able to do so because their own personal mass is higher than the STR of the character or vehicle they are grabbing. Any other reasoning in the source material (comics) is either a) introducing another power for the BBM brick or just another example of bad writing.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Absolutely right. But my point is that the sfx of strength and flight (the effects, as opposed to STR and Flight the Powers) are seperate far more often than not. Really, I'm having trouble coming up with a single example of where they WOULD be linked. Wings, jet-packs, gravity manipulation, being lighter-than-air, telekinesis, magic floating disks, poorly-defined energy trails coming out your backside... what do any of them have to do with the size of a character's biceps?

 

 

Sure. Except that it doesn't make sense to me as a game mechanic either. Linking STR to Flight makes no more sense (to me) than linking, say, PRE and Teleportation. Sure, I could probably come up with some sort of sfx where a character's ability to teleport is dependant on their PRE; but that would be the exception, not the rule.

 

Not trying to be argumentative; just genuinely don't get it.

 

here's a better way to think of it.

 

superheroes as a genre can trace a LOT of roots back to Superman. He is the most copied character EVER. from Iron-Man to Cyclops and the original X-Men (who all, except prof. x, essentialy posessed 1 of his powers). Superman CAN fly with whatever he is able to lift. Any other superhero who can't do the same is not able to because the writer/creator didn't want them to. Thor ( a 3rd generation copy imo: Superman -> Captain Marvel/Shazam -> Thor) can't carry as much while flying because that's the special effect chosen by the writers because they didn't want his hammer-born flight to be as good as Superman's.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Ok' date=' go sky dive with a falling locomotive. It is several times your mass. Whether or not you can lift it while on the ground makes little difference on how much velocity you can give it by 'throwing' during the fall. You will go flying for sure but like a bullet being fired from a gun at high speed the gun/train will get very little kick in return.[/quote']

Nor are we really talking about throwing something that is much much more massive than the character as far as I could recall.

nice change of tactics btw. if the physics argument fails use bad comic writing as a support.

The physics argument didn't fail in the slightest. You just decided to ignore it. You were the one bringing up comics in the argument, and constantly refering back to them while trying to argue more of an erroneous real world issue for not being able to throw while falling. That seemed a little ironic to me, so I pointed out not that comics are badly written, but that they are written more for drama (the particular drama of the situation, not consistency) than for realism. I said they do not constrain themselves based on the laws of physics. That is all I said.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Huh' date=' I guess I'd never even noticed that change. It doesn't make much sense to me; anyone have an idea [u']why[/u] it was changed?

 

It wasn't changed. At least it worked that way in 4th edition as well. As for why it works that way... it's a balance issue. How fair is it to have a character use extra STR (from an Aid, Growth/DI) that was paid for without Limitations but suffer a penalty to his Flight, also paid for without limitations?

 

Let me Defender as an example. The servos in his suit (STR aid) allow him to pick up 6400kg in his arms. But his flight comes from his boot jets (seperate power) which provide enough thrust to lift him off the ground and fly at a rate of 20". If he's trying to fly while carrying more than himself, the thrust the boot jets are putting out is going to have to overcome more resistance, resulting in a slower flying rate. What do his arm-servos have to do with the equation? If the idea is that he can divert power from the servos to his jets, it should probably have been built as a flexible-slot Multipower.

 

I used this specific example because it was easy to seperate the sfx and the powers. Flight and strength typically come from different effects, so it doesn't make sense (to me) to tie them together that way. Yes I know: I'm free to house-rule it or tack on a limitation. But I seek...understanding.

Using Defender is a bad example. In his case, any GM is perfectly justified to say his extra STR doesn't add to his lifting ability during flight because his flight is bought through a Focus. The rest of the rules no longer have any bearing.

 

Another example:

 

Firefly, a flying superhero with 20 STR (no foci or any other Limitations on Flight, just pure mutant powers) can lift, stagger for a moment then drop 400kg. He can do this while standing or hovering. Doesn't matter. Now what if Gravity Lass shot Firefly with a Ranged STR Aid, increasing Firefly's STR by 15. Can he lift more while flying? Why or why not?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Just like nothing in grab says "you cannot fly with him" it also doesn't say "you cannot walk with him".

 

The rules also don't say "you can fly with him" or "you can walk with him". The only information about whether or not a character can move is in the FAQ and from Steve in the questions board.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

superheroes as a genre can trace a LOT of roots back to Superman...

...Superman CAN fly with whatever he is able to lift. Any other superhero who can't do the same is not able to because the writer/creator didn't want them to.

OK, so Supes' Flying is as high as his STR. I have no problem with that - his Flight is awfully high anyway you slice it. (In fact, I could swear I remember reading once that Supes could actually carry more weight while flying than on the ground, which makes sense if he's using his Flying to boost his STR.) I'm not saying one can't be just as strong or stronger than the other; I'm asking why is the one -- by default -- dependent on the other?

 

Also, while I know this thread started with a superhero question, a rule that only makes sense because "that's the way Superman does it" is a pretty flimsy foundation for a universal rules system. Even if it makes sense for superheroes (I'm not yet convinced, but say it does), does it make sense for other genres?

 

It wasn't changed. At least it worked that way in 4th edition as well.

Really? OK, my bad. (My pre-5ed books are packed away; I assumed gojira was reading from 4ed.) Wow, that's even more depressing to think I've been playing it "wrong" -- and not noticing -- since 1989!

 

As for why it works that way... it's a balance issue. How fair is it to have a character use extra STR (from an Aid' date=' Growth/DI) that was paid for without Limitations but suffer a penalty to his Flight, also paid for without limitations?[/quote']

Ironically, I agree that it's a balance issue, but I'm looking at it from the opposite direction. I see Strength and Flight as two separate Powers which are not related unless we choose to make them so. In that case, how "fair" is it for someone with a 60 STR to be able to buy enough Flight to lift 100 tons for the same price that someone with an average STR pays for enough Flight to lift 100 kg?

 

Using Defender is a bad example. In his case' date=' any GM is perfectly justified to say his extra STR doesn't add to his lifting ability during flight because his flight is bought through a Focus. The rest of the rules no longer have any bearing.[/quote']

But that's just the thing: if the strength of his suit's arms has no relationship to his boot-jets, why does the strength of his flesh-and-bone arms matter?

 

Let's take a different example, switching genres. Galtar the Great, an ancient and powerful wizard, gets tired of walking, so he magics up a Glowing Floaty Disk to carry him: built as 10" Flight. His young apprentice, Dirk the Dim decides to do the same thing - say he uses the exact same spell, which he cribbed from his master's spell book. Because Dirk has a 13 STR compared to Galtar's 8, can his disk carry twice as much weight as Galtar's? Why? (And yes, I suppose you could build it as a summoned vehicle or whatever; that's not the point.)

 

Or let's look at a different movement type: Mick is an average swimmer with a 15 STR; Mack is a strong swimmer with a 10 STR. Who's going to have an easier time carrying 50kg while swimming? As someone who's tried to swim with equipment (and %$#@-near drowned in the attempt! ), my money's on Mack.

 

Another example:

 

Firefly, a flying superhero with 20 STR (no foci or any other Limitations on Flight, just pure mutant powers) can lift, stagger for a moment then drop 400kg. He can do this while standing or hovering. Doesn't matter. Now what if Gravity Lass shot Firefly with a Ranged STR Aid, increasing Firefly's STR by 15. Can he lift more while flying? Why or why not?

Assuming that his 20 STR and his Flight are not overtly linked through a Power Framework or something? I would say no, STR Aid makes him stronger, it doesn't make his Flight stronger. :shrug: But I seem to be in the minority.

 

[Edit: Dang that was a long post - sorry! ]

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Really? OK, my bad. (My pre-5ed books are packed away; I assumed gojira was reading from 4ed.) Wow, that's even more depressing to think I've been playing it "wrong" -- and not noticing -- since 1989!

There have been a few for me as well. Or at the very least I've assumed a house rules I'd been using for years was a standard rule when in fact the rules had no official ruling on the subject. The funny thing is that 5th edition made official a number of house rules I had been using (and apparently quite a few others were using them too).

 

 

Ironically, I agree that it's a balance issue, but I'm looking at it from the opposite direction. I see Strength and Flight as two separate Powers which are not related unless we choose to make them so. In that case, how "fair" is it for someone with a 60 STR to be able to buy enough Flight to lift 100 tons for the same price that someone with an average STR pays for enough Flight to lift 100 kg?

Only you are not buying Flight to lift things. You are buying STR to lift things. If you buy more STR, you lift more. If you buy more Flight, you fly faster. The two are completely unrelated.

 

 

But that's just the thing: if the strength of his suit's arms has no relationship to his boot-jets, why does the strength of his flesh-and-bone arms matter?

It's not his STR at all that makes it a bad example. It's the Flight, bought as a Focus, that does. As far as I'm concerned, buying Flight through a Focus like that (essentially defining it as a separate object from the character, compltely self contained), that would prevent any additional STR from affecting how much can be lifted/carried while flying.

 

Let's take a different example, switching genres. Galtar the Great, an ancient and powerful wizard, gets tired of walking, so he magics up a Glowing Floaty Disk to carry him: built as 10" Flight. His young apprentice, Dirk the Dim decides to do the same thing - say he uses the exact same spell, which he cribbed from his master's spell book. Because Dirk has a 13 STR compared to Galtar's 8, can his disk carry twice as much weight as Galtar's? Why? (And yes, I suppose you could build it as a summoned vehicle or whatever; that's not the point.)

Why? Because it's magic! Why should magic make any logical sense?

Of course, if you specifically wanted it to have a particular weight limit, and the same limit for all characters, you'd have to define it as a Vehicle, or place a Limitation such as "character can only carry xlbs while flying".

 

Or let's look at a different movement type: Mick is an average swimmer with a 15 STR; Mack is a strong swimmer with a 10 STR. Who's going to have an easier time carrying 50kg while swimming? As someone who's tried to swim with equipment (and %$#@-near drowned in the attempt! ), my money's on Mack.

As someone who's swum competitively, you'll have to define "strong" and "average" swimmer for this to make any sense. Do you mean the strong swimmer is faster, more accurate, more endurant/can swim longer, than the average swimmer?

 

Also, while swimming, especially while carrying stuff, you have to take into account things like bouyancy and drag of the carried items. Shape is also an issue. It's actually harder to swim carrying a huge 10kg block of styrofoam than is it to swim while holding a 10kg lead weight in one hand.

 

And swimming is a bit unlike flight, in that while you are moving through water, there is effectively something there to help hold stuff for you (which can be bad or good, depending on the bouyancy of the object). There is rarely such an issue while flying in the air.

 

 

Assuming that his 20 STR and his Flight are not overtly linked through a Power Framework or something? I would say no, STR Aid makes him stronger, it doesn't make his Flight stronger. :shrug: But I seem to be in the minority.

 

[Edit: Dang that was a long post - sorry! ]

 

I think I see a disconnect here. Flight doesn't have a "strength". It's just a game mechanic that says whatever has the Flight Power is able to move so far during a single Phase (which is also variable depending on the whatever's SPD). Flight has nothing to do with STR, lifting or anything else (unless you're using the option rule in which Flight adds to STR, which doesn't seem to have any bearing on this discussion anyway).

[gojira]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Really? OK' date=' my bad. (My pre-5ed books are packed away; I assumed gojira was reading from 4ed.) Wow, that's even [u']more[/u] depressing to think I've been playing it "wrong" -- and not noticing -- since 1989!

 

Yeah, it was 3rd ed., printing date 1985. BTW, I agree with your examples BDH, which is why I'm going to house-rule this and make it like 3rd ed.

 

Edit: I had to add this

[garou]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Absolutely right. But my point is that the sfx of strength and flight (the effects, as opposed to STR and Flight the Powers) are seperate far more often than not. Really, I'm having trouble coming up with a single example of where they WOULD be linked. Wings, jet-packs, gravity manipulation, being lighter-than-air, telekinesis, magic floating disks, poorly-defined energy trails coming out your backside... what do any of them have to do with the size of a character's biceps?

Short answer: It's easier that way.

 

Long answer: Because STR is not just a function of the size of a character's biceps. One of the oddities of the cyberpunk genre (which is rarely explored) is that, if someone suddenly were to exchange your arms with cyberarms capable of crushing bricks into powder, and which had, in laboratory conditions, bench pressed a Honda, you still would not be able to walk out into the street and pick up a car. You could try it, and then feel the pain as your new cyberarms are ripped from their sockets. Lifting is a function of the arms, but also the backs and legs - and most people can carry much more if it is placed on their backs/shoulders than if they try to hold it in their arms.

 

So, we have to imagine STR is a function of overall bodily strength. For flight powers which are musclar, and inherent to the character (eg, wings), then flying while carrying an encumbering load makes perfect sense - there is no reason why the wings should be less strong than anything else. (I mean, we've already accepted the impossible fact of a winged human flying, really. . .)

 

Likewise, for any mechanical device, we may presume that the inventor of said device said (again, eg) "The Ubersuit can lift 10 tons. I'd better make sure that the flight boots/jetpack/gravity nullifier can handle that load as well as the load of the suit and the operator."

 

Telekinesis & magic - no problem. If someone is using teke-based flight (and has teke-based lifting abilities), or a magical equivalent, then, again, the spell or powers were designed, or operates, with those limitations in mind.

 

Again, everying eventually boils down to my short answer: it's easier.

[DEFCON Clown]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Nerd fights are funny. You all do realize you are arguing over how a supervillian can or can not throw a superhero in flight while because the villian doesn't have flight? I mean by all means continue your argument, I just want confirmation that everyone realizes this is not a real world situation.

[KA.]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Nerd fights are funny. You all do realize you are arguing over how a supervillian can or can not throw a superhero in flight while because the villian doesn't have flight? I mean by all means continue your argument' date=' I just want confirmation that everyone realizes this is not a real world situation.[/quote']

 

I have another theoretical question for you:

 

What is the weight of a PLONK?

 

Since this is a bulletin board owned by a company that publishes an RPG,

and one of the genres covered by that RPG is Superheroes,

and this is the area of that board designated for discussion of those rules,

what did you expect to find here, sushi recipes?

 

I don't mean to be offensive, but your comment is somewhere between ill-informed and downright trollish.

 

Do you go to NASCAR discussion boards and ask if they realize they are talking about a bunch of guys who just drive in a circle all day?

 

Of course they realize that. That is why they are on the NASCAR boards!

 

KA.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Remember that Encumberance penalties to movement apply to Flight as well as Running (and while it is suggested that the DCV penalties not be used in superheroic games, the same is not true of the movement penalties).

[radioKAOS]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Remember that Encumberance penalties to movement apply to Flight as well as Running (and while it is suggested that the DCV penalties not be used in superheroic games' date=' the same is not true of the movement penalties).[/quote']

 

I do believe we've just hit the nail on the head folks.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Nerd fights are funny. You all do realize you are arguing over how a supervillian can or can not throw a superhero in flight while because the villian doesn't have flight? I mean by all means continue your argument' date=' I just want confirmation that everyone realizes this is not a real world situation.[/quote']

If you mean this is a superhero situation, I would say it can also factor in in more realistic/heroic games. If you mean we are trying to apply real-world principles to a game, well then you are right: it's funny, and we are geeks.

[tesuji]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

The rules also don't say "you can fly with him" or "you can walk with him".

 

Sorry but this doesn't fly.

 

the flight power and running power tell me the character can move, just like the force field power says he can put up a force field and gain protection and the n ray vision power tells me he can see thru stuff.

 

None of these also say "and under X conditions he can still do those" for every conceivable X condition imaginable.

 

I don't assume that because n-ray vision doesn't mention grabs that being grabbed kills my n-ray vision.

 

I do assume that if a given condition counters the power, renders it inoperable, then that condition will mention it. grab doesn't.

 

I don't assume that because force field doen't mention keeping it up when grabbed that i cannot force field when grabbed.

 

There are rules for moving while laden, and no mention of them being different when the laden is a kid hanging onto my back or a dumpster or a backpack loaded with sharp pointy things.

 

shrugs.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

I have another theoretical question for you:

 

What is the weight of a PLONK?

 

Since this is a bulletin board owned by a company that publishes an RPG,

and one of the genres covered by that RPG is Superheroes,

and this is the area of that board designated for discussion of those rules,

what did you expect to find here, sushi recipes?

 

I don't mean to be offensive, but your comment is somewhere between ill-informed and downright trollish.

 

Do you go to NASCAR discussion boards and ask if they realize they are talking about a bunch of guys who just drive in a circle all day?

 

Of course they realize that. That is why they are on the NASCAR boards!

 

KA.

 

I don't think the hostility here is warrented. Mr. Clown seems to be doing nothing more than remining us that people flying (in the ways discussed) is not a real world event, and so real world physics are already tossed out as not applicable.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

Sorry but this doesn't fly.

No pun intended I'm sure.

 

the flight power and running power tell me the character can move, just like the force field power says he can put up a force field and gain protection and the n ray vision power tells me he can see thru stuff.

 

None of these also say "and under X conditions he can still do those" for every conceivable X condition imaginable.

 

I don't assume that because n-ray vision doesn't mention grabs that being grabbed kills my n-ray vision.

 

I do assume that if a given condition counters the power, renders it inoperable, then that condition will mention it. grab doesn't.

 

I don't assume that because force field doen't mention keeping it up when grabbed that i cannot force field when grabbed.

 

There are rules for moving while laden, and no mention of them being different when the laden is a kid hanging onto my back or a dumpster or a backpack loaded with sharp pointy things.

 

shrugs.

I was just pointing out that the rules for Grab say nothing about how it affects the movement powers of the target, one way or the other. Any assumption that is does or doesn't is just that, an assumption. Only the FAQ has rules for this.

[tesuji]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

No pun intended I'm sure.

 

 

I was just pointing out that the rules for Grab say nothing about how it affects the movement powers of the target, one way or the other. Any assumption that is does or doesn't is just that, an assumption. Only the FAQ has rules for this.

 

So, just how many postings to the official qna section along the lines of "under fore field, it doesn't explicitly state i can use it when grabbed, so can I?" do you expect it would take to get the thing clarified for every other power which also doesn't clarify in its description whether it stops working when grabbed?

1?

2?

37?

[David Johnston]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

No pun intended I'm sure.

 

 

I was just pointing out that the rules for Grab say nothing about how it affects the movement powers of the target, one way or the other.

 

That is sufficient reason to conclude that it doesn't affect the movement powers or any other powers of the target except insofar as it interferes with limb movement and focus use, both of which are mentioned. Particularly since we know perfectly well that comic book characters can and do fly with people holding on to them.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

OK, I know I’m getting dangerously close to here; sorry.

Remember that Encumberance penalties to movement apply to Flight as well as Running

Absolutely. The question (at least in my mind) is what the Encumbrance level should be based off of: physical STR or the strength of the Flight power.

 

Only you are not buying Flight to lift things. You are buying STR to lift things. If you buy more STR' date=' you lift more. If you buy more Flight, you fly faster. The two are completely unrelated. [/quote']

But Flight contains the ability to lift at least yourself off the ground, or it wouldn’t be of much use. The question is how much additional weight you can take with you. While in the abstract your statement is correct, it doesn’t work in practice (for me) because it makes an assumption that two separate, unrelated effects -- muscular strength and flying -- can lift the same weight.

 

As far as I'm concerned' date=' buying Flight through a Focus like that (essentially defining it as a separate object from the character, compltely self contained), that would prevent any additional STR from affecting how much can be lifted/carried while flying.[/quote']

I completely agree. And yet the lifting power of his Flight is still based on his muscular 15 STR. What if Defender starts spending more time in the gym with Ironclad and sweats his way up to an 18 STR? Should that – by default – increase how much thrust his boot jets put out? For that matter if we’re going to say that taking a Focus on Flight changes how much weight you can carry, doesn’t that affect how much the limitation should be worth? Would it change things (in your opinion) if Defender’s suit had been built as OIHID instead of Focus, as discussed in various power-armor threads?

 

I know we’re just quibbling over a mechanic, and all mechanics are abstractions. I just feel that this mechanic makes a bad abstraction for no good reason (that I can see).

 

Why? Because it's magic! Why should magic make any logical sense?

Sorry, but I think that’s a total cop-out. As with any genre, it should make as much or as little sense as the GM and players want it to; isn’t that the whole point of a universal system? But either way, when the default case doesn’t make logical sense, I call that a bad mechanic.

 

I think I see a disconnect here. Flight doesn't have a "strength".

It doesn’t have Strength as a characteristic, no. But it does have a lifting capacity (or whatever you want to call it) inherent to the power. The question is what should that lifting capacity be based off of, the muscular strength of the character, or how many points you’ve put into Flight? To me, the latter more accurately models more situations.

 

Short answer: It's easier that way.

Fair `nuff. And if I thought it was significantly easier, I would accept that argument. But “carrying power limited by points of Flight†doesn’t seem terribly complicated to me. 20 Active Points in Flight => 400 kilos; how hard is that?

 

Long answer: Because STR is not just a function of the size of a character's biceps.

Absolutely right, of course. I was (over?)simplifying.

 

So' date=' we have to imagine STR is a function of overall bodily strength. For flight powers which are musclar, and inherent to the character (eg, wings), then flying while carrying an encumbering load makes perfect sense - there is no reason why the wings should be less strong than anything else. [/quote']

Good point. After all, we don’t differentiate between a character’s arm strength vs leg strength. OK, I can see the case for wings. But while wings are not exactly uncommon, they’re still a relatively small percentage of cases of Flight. It seems to me that the majority of Flight powers are not muscular-based, so cases where they are should therefore be the exception rather than the rule.

 

Speaking of simplicity, if I switch to the official rule I would have to go back and retrofit probably 90% of my Flight builds with either a limitation “not based on STR†or buy “+/- STR only while flying†to be accurate. Much easier IMO to make that the default and buy advantages for the other 10% where it is based on STR.

 

Likewise' date=' for any mechanical device, we may presume that the inventor of said device said (again, eg) "The Ubersuit can lift 10 tons. I'd better make sure that the flight boots/jetpack/gravity nullifier can handle that load as well as the load of the suit and the operator." [/quote']

I’m not sure I agree with that assumption, as it presumes that the inventor can put as much power into the jets as he wants, thus the only limited is the structural lifting strength of the suit. I would think the default would be to make sure the Flight can move the Ubersuit itself; anything else is an adder, and can be bought up appropriately.

 

Let’s say our inventor is instead designing boot jets for VIPER agents. Is he going to design different strength jets for each agent? Or is he going to build one design that puts out a set amount of thrust, perhaps designed to “just barely lift†an average-size agent plus, say, 100 kg?

 

Telekinesis & magic - no problem. If someone is using teke-based flight (and has teke-based lifting abilities)' date=' or a magical equivalent, then, again, the spell or powers were designed, or operates, with those limitations in mind. [/quote']

Telekinesis raises an interesting point. Say Super-TK-Guy has 3 powers: TK, Entangle and Flight, all using telekinetic as the sfx. The STR of his TK is not tied to his physical STR, or even his INT or EGO. Neither is the DEF/BOD of the Entangle. Why is his Flight?

 

Nerd fights are funny. You all do realize you are arguing over how a supervillian can or can not throw a superhero in flight while because the villian doesn't have flight?

Nerds pretending not to be nerds are funny. You do realize you’re on a gaming forum?

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

I don't think the hostility here is warrented. Mr. Clown seems to be doing nothing more than remining us that people flying (in the ways discussed) is not a real world event' date=' and so real world physics are already tossed out as not applicable.[/quote']

I think maybe this is where you and I disagree. I prefer my gaming worlds to make sense within the limits of the genre and setting, in other words: "What would the world be like if people could fly?" I don't want to throw out all the rest of the laws of physics as a result.

 

All game systems are a trade-off between accurate simulation and playability; I love Hero partly because it strikes a good balance between those two absolutes. So I get frustrated when I find a mechanic that decreases "realism" without adding any playability. All IMO, as always.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

It sounds like a lot of the argument at this point is over what constitues the 'default rules' for flight.

 

This has been a common theme of late as there was a recent thread that mentioned 2 different ways of handling a Cleric's ability to Turn Undead.

 

method 1: buy extra PRE only vs. Undead.

method 2: give all undead a disadvantage vulnerability vs. PRE from Clerics

 

either method is fine but the 2nd one is a simpler default to impliment.

 

Clinging is very similar and related to the flight dilema. As a 'default' it gives access to a characters FULL Str to adhere to objects. It can be limited to not do this. This could just as easily been flipped to where 10 pts of Clinging gives you 10 pts of Clinging STR regardless of what the character's actual STR is. It's a matter of convienience.

 

Some rules in HERO boil down to this. get used to it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

So, just how many postings to the official qna section along the lines of "under fore field, it doesn't explicitly state i can use it when grabbed, so can I?" do you expect it would take to get the thing clarified for every other power which also doesn't clarify in its description whether it stops working when grabbed?

1?

2?

37?

 

I think you lost me on something here. What's your point?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

I think maybe this is where you and I disagree. I prefer my gaming worlds to make sense within the limits of the genre and setting' date=' in other words: "What would the world be like if people [u']could[/u] fly?" I don't want to throw out all the rest of the laws of physics as a result.

 

The question you must first ask would be WHY can they fly? If they fly because they have hollow bones and broad wings, the physics of birds must apply.

 

The Human Torch becomes lighter than air. The physics behind his flight are questionable at best, so how would they interact with real world physics?

 

Thor flies by throwing his hammer and grabbing on. HUH? How does he change directions in mid-air (which he is capable of doing)?

 

Superman flies...well, because he flies - there's no real explanation. What are the physics behind that?

 

Green Lantern flies via willpower.

 

Graviton flies via controlled gravity manipulation.

 

Silver Surfer rides a Cosmic Surfboard.

 

Storm manipulates the wind.

 

Banshee and Siryn hold themselves aloft with screams, and Sunfire with flames.

 

Dr. Strange's magic cloak levitates him.

 

Starfire flies through photonic energy.

 

Booster Gold has a flight ring.

 

That's a small smattering of the special effects for "people who fly" in the comics. How will you get consistent physics for use of STR when flying when there are no consistent physics for the flying itself?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Ruling on this situation...

 

But Flight contains the ability to lift at least yourself off the ground, or it wouldn’t be of much use. The question is how much additional weight you can take with you. While in the abstract your statement is correct, it doesn’t work in practice (for me) because it makes an assumption that two separate, unrelated effects -- muscular strength and flying -- can lift the same weight.

Well, all the game mechanics are is "in the abstract". Also, I think you are reading too much (or not enough) into the STR Characteristic. "Muscular strenth" is different than STR. It might just be semantics so forgive me if I'm overcomplicating things.

 

 

Sorry, but I think that’s a total cop-out. As with any genre, it should make as much or as little sense as the GM and players want it to; isn’t that the whole point of a universal system? But either way, when the default case doesn’t make logical sense, I call that a bad mechanic.

As far as I'm concerned, "magic" it a total cop-out. Magic is an alternative system of physics, different physical laws that apply in a fictional universe. The word is just used because those physical laws break our physical laws. My point here is that with differing physical laws, the physical laws in reality need not apply. Attempting to apply the physical laws of reality is futile at best.

 

It doesn’t have Strength as a characteristic, no. But it does have a lifting capacity (or whatever you want to call it) inherent to the power. The question is what should that lifting capacity be based off of, the muscular strength of the character, or how many points you’ve put into Flight? To me, the latter more accurately models more situations.

I disagree. Flight has absolutely no lifting capacity. If it has one at all, it's only to lift the character's weight (whatever weight that happens to be) and nothing more. Should the character's weight change, it makes no difference; Flight still moves the character that purchased distance each Phase.