Dr. MID-Nite Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Villain has grabbed hero. Hero has Flight. Hero says they'll simply fly up until they(the villains) either let go...or hero turns around and rams them into the ground. Hero tries this tactic every game and it turns into a verbal fight that I have little patience for. Rules don't say much on this subject. My take..is...you're grabbed. You can't do squat until you "break free". What's the general consensus....anyone? Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabluey Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... I would assume that, unless the Flight is defined as restrainable, he can use it - just like you can use any non-restrainable power when grabbed. Then it just becomes an issue of whether his STR is sufficient to lift the one grabbing him. And, of course, if he's ramming into the ground, then he takes the same damage as the villain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... Starting at the end of page 364 in 5ER there are some rules for how being Grabbed affects a character's movement and how a Grabber can halt a character's movement. Also there is this from the FAQ: Q: Can a character who has been Grabbed use his Flight to move about, taking the Grabber with him (assuming he has sufficient STR to carry his attacker)? A: That’s up to the GM based upon the special effects involved, the situation, game balance, dramatic sense, and other factors, but as a default, no. Even if the GM chooses to allow it (at least for some special effects), the flying character may be subject to Encumbrance rules for carrying so much weight. Even if the GM doesn’t allow the Grabbed character to try to “carry” his Grabber, he can still allow the Grabbed character to use his Flight to add to his STR as described on 5ER 364. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Johnston Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... Villain has grabbed hero. Hero has Flight. Hero says they'll simply fly up until they(the villains) either let go...or hero turns around and rams them into the ground. Hero tries this tactic every game and it turns into a verbal fight that I have little patience for. Rules don't say much on this subject. My take..is...you're grabbed. You can't do squat until you "break free". What's the general consensus....anyone? Rob A villain tries to grab the flying hero every game? If you look at the genre, yes, flying characters who don't have things like foulable wings do frequently take off while grabbed. And what Grab actually does is immobilise two limbs (or possibly more with a Sweep), cut DCV and OCV in half and encumber the character. While grabbled you can use any power that isn't dependant on Gestures, although you may have some difficulty aiming it, particularly at the person grabbing you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... If the FAQ ruling above isn't enough for you, have the villain who makes the Grab use one arm to hold on (-5 STR according to FRED p. 256/ 5ER p. 387), then use the other hand to hang onto something solid - if he's strong enough he can even dig his hand into the ground/pavement. The flyer will have to break out of the villain's Grab normally, or do enough STR damage to the Body of the object to break it.. or he ain't goin' nowhere. If the hero is known for this tactic, here's an alternative nasty surprise: as the hero powerdives with the villain, the latter (being prepared for this tactic) executes a STR and/or DEX roll to flip the hero under him just before impact, so that the hero takes the full force of it. Speaking as GM, though, I would say that the rulebook and the FAQ support you being well within your rights to say that this tactic won't work in this particular instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... If the hero is known for this tactic, here's an alternative nasty surprise: as the hero powerdives with the villain, the latter (being prepared for this tactic) executes a STR and/or DEX roll to flip the hero under him just before impact, so that the hero takes the full force of it. Assuming you allow the fly while grabbed thing, this is an excellent solution. There are rules for controlling a grabbed character (not specifically flying though) in UMA if you have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... I'd say it could work now and then as a surprise maneuver. If the grabber knows that the grabbed character can fly, however, I think it is fair to allow them to, for example, anchor themselves to any available terrain and have the Grab mechanic alone determine that the grabbed character cannot move, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Johnston Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... I'd say it could work now and then as a surprise maneuver. If the grabber knows that the grabbed character can fly' date=' however, I think it is fair to allow them to, for example, anchor themselves to any available terrain and have the Grab mechanic alone determine that the grabbed character cannot move, though.[/quote'] Yup. If the grabbler uses only one hand to grab and holds onto something with his other hand, or wraps his legs around something then the flier ain't going nowhere without breaking the anchor or the grip. What might be amusing since he likes the tactic so much is to have someone grab him on a sidewalk, then as he takes off, have the grabber make an acrobatics roll to reach out with his legs, wrap them around one of those convenient flagpoles swingers use, and slam flyboy into the wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Typist Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... Does the player deliberately create this situation so that he will get grabbed and can do this? Or are you just trying to get his character? If it's the former, well, he is essentially trying to get something for nothing (a power/attack), and you should listen to the above advice. If it's the latter, well, you need to just let the guy do his flying bit, because depending on the SFX, it makes sense to me, and it sounds like fun. Which is what this is all about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... So...I'm holding on to Freddy Flyboy, when he takes off. I'm not letting go now, since I'll fall. Freddy does a 180 and starts heading for the pavement. What a revolting development this is. Tell you what - I'll Reserve and hold on. When we're about 10" off the ground, I'll let go and jump free. Then I'll use my Leaping inches to possibly cushion my fall a bit (hey, if I Grabbed, I likely have a decent STR), and let Freddy do a faceplant on the asphalt at full speed. He has a Turn Mode, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Desmarais Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... Villain has grabbed hero. Hero has Flight. Hero says they'll simply fly up until they(the villains) either let go...or hero turns around and rams them into the ground. Hero tries this tactic every game and it turns into a verbal fight that I have little patience for. Rules don't say much on this subject. My take..is...you're grabbed. You can't do squat until you "break free". What's the general consensus....anyone? Rob Depending on the SFX of the flight, and whether or not the flier is strong enough, I would probably allow it. Now, your message implies this is happening often. My suggestion - stop grabbing him (or, on the phase the flier takes off, have the grabber abort to the defensive manuever "let go"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Souljourner Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... Honestly, if the flight isn't restrainable or using gestures, and he can lift the weight of the grabber, then he can indeed fly off. I don't see what the problem is. Now, flying up and back down to smack into the earth is an odd tactic, since he'll take as much as the grabber, but ok, fine. I would allow the grabber to abort to some kind of manuver to only take normal falling damage, though (basically, letting go before the guy gets too much downward velocity). And yeah, grabbing the character with one arm and something else with the other isn't a bad idea either. I honestly don't know why the answer to the FAQ is "no, he can't fly". There's no rules to support that, and it doesn't fit with common sense either. -Nate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tesuji Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... unless the flight is bought restrainable, it would seem that flying around should be OK, by anyor most reasonable SFX of flight. Let me ask another question, if I grab you, we both have normal mass, and you have say reasonable super-strength like maybe 30 vs my 45, can you not move? Can't you walk away from me, dragging me or lifting me? By the rules, there is literally no mention of grabbed characters veing unable to move. Certainly a choke hold or arm lock on iron man isn't gonna stop him from boot jetting up and away. Matter of fact, they even mention using movement powers to help escape the grab. All in all, a flier taking advantage of a grabby non-flier by zipping up and saying "now what?" doesn't sound to me like something i would want to rule out in games i run. It would seem the error was in the tactics of the grabber, who ought not to grab people who can fly if he cannot. other than the possibly goofy ruling, i don't see the problem. As for the dive bomb game of chicken... again... whats the problem. If a swimming character dove under water with his arms pinned and started sinking, presenting his air breathing grabber with "let go or drown" would tyhat be something needing a new rule to prevent? A teleporter can poof out of the grab. A flier can whoosh you to heights. A swimmer can drag you under. heck, depending on SFX a tunneler might be able to drop you both thru the floor and close it in behind you with a "KO me or kill me and you have literally dug your own grave." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... Yeah, I have to wonder why people keep grabbing a flier if it's obvious he has enough STR to carry them off. At a minimum, I would think most grabbers would "abort to let go" as soon as he took off. OTOH, some strong bricks might not be too worried about the falling damage and would rather keep sqeazing, head-butting, etc. And unless the flier's PD is really absurd, I would think the ram-them-into-the-ground tactic would be of limited use. Also, does the PC have code vs killing? if so, dropping people from high-altitude would seem to be a big no-no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... Quick question about the flier... What's his STR. Unless it's enough to lift twice the mass of the grabber, he'll be encumbered while in flight (or attempting any other movement). If his STR is just enough to lift the grabber (a 10 STR flier and a 100kg grabber), he won't be able to move at all (possibly hover, but not get anywehre). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... Here's another idea. As long as the grabber can make the attack roll, he can always Throw the grabbed character. How about throwing the grabbed character straight down? The grabbed character might then have to face a substantial amount of damage, and the grabber may just give himself some upward momentum to counter the fall/dive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KA. Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... A couple of things: 1) People who can't fly often grab fliers. It may be the only way to have a fight with them. Otherwise they can just fly around and throw things at you, fly around and blast you, etc. So grabbing them may be the best you can do. Spiderman does it all the time. 2) I don't know why this guy keeps getting grabbed, unless he is using the above tactics, and that is the only way for his opponents to have a shot at him. Some nasty things you can do if he never seems to take any damage in combat: a) Give him an opponent with Mental Illusions/Mind Control: 'The ground is still thirty feet away.' and 'I can handle a powerdive into the ground, and it will fix this wimp once and for all.' can be very dangerous things to think when you are flying full speed at the ground. Give him an opponent with Density Increase. Not so that he can't lift them. Activate it when he is near the end of his powerdive maneuver. Player: "Oh, crap! I can't pull up! We won't survive an impact at this speed!" Density Guy "Speak for yourself, my body is as hard as a diamond right now." c) What happens if he gets Stunned, or KO'd, while powerdiving? d) What if he is put into a Darkness field that affects his sense of orientation while powerdiving? "Oh, crap! Which way is the ground?" CRUNCH! "Oh. There it is . . ." I am not saying that the player deserves any of the above just for doing something 'smart', but if he is combining this with sniping tactics so that villains never, ever, get to attack him at all, I can understand your frustration. KA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBikle Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... Isn't the flying guy taking damage from the grabber ? My take is that the flier should be able to fly unless the grabber's weight exceeds the flier's strength and movement used for strength. Even then, flying straight up halves movement. Doesn't seem to me that the flier would be moving all that quick unless that's his main thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radioKAOS Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... Sounds like you, as the GM, need to switch up your tactics. If you want to neutralize his flight, hit him with an entangle him instead of grabbing him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... Here's another idea. As long as the grabber can make the attack roll' date=' he can always Throw the grabbed character. How about throwing the grabbed character straight down? The grabbed character might then have to face a substantial amount of damage, and the grabber may just give himself some upward momentum to counter the fall/dive. [/quote'] one of the recent Justice League Unlimited animated episodes had a scene where a 'Intelligent Hulk-ish" type character (U.S. General who just took a WWII Nazi super-soldier serum) who is grabbed by character with Telekinesis (Star Girl) with a similar special effect to that of Green Lantern. Star girl paused in mid flight and the General (who had NO flying ability) somehow managed to find leverage in mid-air to pull and throw Star Girl to the ground via her energy lasso (TK). The HERO in me screamed "What are the writers & animators thinking?! TK is not reactive! He can't fly! Where is he getting leverage from?" I think it was just a case of lazy writers since the point of the story was to have the recently super-powered villain face off against a group of non-powered JL members. I wonder how many other fans of the show that weren't necessarily gamer's were bothered by that gaff? Anyone from the here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... So...I'm holding on to Freddy Flyboy, when he takes off. I'm not letting go now, since I'll fall. Freddy does a 180 and starts heading for the pavement. What a revolting development this is. Tell you what - I'll Reserve and hold on. When we're about 10" off the ground, I'll let go and jump free. Then I'll use my Leaping inches to possibly cushion my fall a bit (hey, if I Grabbed, I likely have a decent STR), and let Freddy do a faceplant on the asphalt at full speed. He has a Turn Mode, right? Actually, if you're the one holding onto Freddy Flyboy ... when you get close to the ground, throw him straight down (for STR damage into pavement) then LAND on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... Actually' date=' if you're the one holding onto Freddy Flyboy ... when you get close to the ground, throw him straight down (for STR damage into pavement) then LAND on him. [/quote'] How does a character without Flying or Gliding find any leverage to make a throw? Especially to the source of his movement (the grabbed flyer)? It's not that different than the first astronauts to attempt spacewalks during the Gemini program. From a HERO mechanics standpoint they might be able to get 1/2 of their normal standing throwing distance at best with little to no control over the direction of the throw if the mass is any significant amount higher than their own personal mass (not STR). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... I think the player is within his rights to take off with a opponent. I think the rules state that a player can only use 2 points of STR per 1" of flight. So a 10" flier with 40 STR can only use 20 STR to lift targets. But a 10" flier with 20 STR can use all of his strength, and a 15" flier with 20 STR can only use his 20 STR, not 30 STR. But basically, yeah, you need to let the player take off with people, redifine his power as restrainable somehow, or use different attacks. I'd suggest high knockback attacks. Fliers hate knockback. Get a strong brick to throw big rocks at him, see how he likes it. Entangle are a good idea, just plain mental attack is good, high density folks (that brick again), agents with flying jet packs, agents with ranged attacks, agents with high knockback ranged attacks (concussion gernade launchers), etc. You could also define fighting styles that would help defeat this guy. Grab + choke hold. A martial artist that can grab an opponent and still kick with his feet, a martial artist that can grab an opponent with his legs in a "scissor lock" and still fight with his hands, a martial artist who can Acrobat his way away from an opponent who is barreling downwards, etc. I think some creativity is required here, not rules badgering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... How does a character without Flying or Gliding find any leverage to make a throw? Especially to the source of his movement (the grabbed flyer)? Leverage? Err...just consider it a monumental chin-up. Seriously, even though the grabber doesn't have a toe hold, (s)he still has muscles and inertia. When you're falling, you can still take a ball and throw it any direction you wish. Not being anchored doesn't keep your muscles from working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Re: Ruling on this situation... Leverage? Err...just consider it a monumental chin-up. Seriously, even though the grabber doesn't have a toe hold, (s)he still has muscles and inertia. When you're falling, you can still take a ball and throw it any direction you wish. Not being anchored doesn't keep your muscles from working. Ok, let's give examples that have appeared in the source material. Solomon Grundy Grabs Superman. Superman flies into the air. (or... Hulk grabs Hyperion for you Marvel fans.) If Superman/Hyperion does nothing but use his flight to remain airborn what can Solomon Grundy/Hulk do? squeeze for damage (simple) let go (simple) throw (how far?) What happens to Grundy/Hulk? Assuming that Grundy/Hulk might have somewhere around 10-30 times as much MASS as Superman/Hyperion. Grundy/Hulk would then be the center of mass when throwing/pushing-off from Superman/Hyperion. That would be the maximum extent of any leverage he has. Superman/Hyperion could probably use his flight to just hold position and Grundy/Hulk would just go flying off in the opposite direction that he tried to throw Superman/Hyperion. If everything else is close to even, Flying Brick beats Non-Flying brick every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.