Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

[azato]

If one were to run say a somewhat Gamma-Worldish campaign. How would one expain it?

 

It seems to me that, despite the severity of any event, civilization would reform within decades. While knowlege would be lost, it would not be back to day 1. It seems that it might hang on at the 19th and early 20th century for awhile.

 

The human race would have to be *almost* wiped out, and yet kept from cities. While the nuclear strikes would work to keep people out of cities, they would not destroy enough people, nor would it destory all important cities/refineries/etc.

 

Biological may take out enough of the population, it would leave most of the intellectual and technological infrastucture intact.

 

 

It also seems that wild mutations and new creatures with stable genes (as in new races)are contrary realities.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

If you want to add a few new creatures, you can say that they were created for some specific purpose through genetic manipulation. It won't explain why a 100 pound frog with armored skin can shoot lasers from its eyes, but it could explain a dog with ape-level intelligence and even more enhanced smell capabilities, for instance.

 

Knocking out enough of the population will have major effects on civilization. Even if the cities are safe to live in afterwards, there won't be much food after a while to support much more than a handful...people will have to move back into the country.

 

You could have enough nuclear strikes hitting enough cities and refineries (which would be a better target than your average city anyway) to set off a mild nuclear winter, which would have more wide-ranging effects on the population. If there's not enough light and warmth to grow food for everyone, and those who do survive have to spend all their time for years on end working at subsistence farming, a lot of knowledge will be lost.

 

Of course, if you want all that wild stuff that is normally associated with Gamma World, you'll have to throw logic out the window entirely. That's just fantasy with a thin veneer of science thrown on top anyway.

[azato]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

I don't disagree that taking people out of the cities would have a major effect on civilization but here is the quandry -- For the wild Post-Apoc stuff to happen you need a lot of time - say at least a hundred years. The GW setting is basically medieval society (some higher and some lower). But unless there is almost a complete loss of people society should be past that by then. ++AND++ in order for it to be populated by intresting people/mutants/beings there would need to be a fairly large population.

 

 

If enough people were wiped out in the cities there would be a lot of food to draw on - canned foods and such. There would be a large outbreak in rats. I imagine it would be easy to input a "de-evolution" of man. Radation doing bad things (real life radiation effects) - living off of refuse and bodies and canned food and rats.

 

You might be right about throwing out the logic, but it pains me to do so.

 

I have been out of Role Playing for years and have gotten some books and have been hacking away. It may just be an "acedemic" exercise. I went though the same thing with Fantasy Hero. I decided on Greyhawk because 1. I had the map and 2. Once I got the book the whole world seemed "logical" (the migrations and such). I would like to see a post-apocolypic world fleshed out as well.

 

I did think that something along the lines of War of the Worlds. The "bug-eyed-monsters" started anti-terraforming the earth and got stopped part way through. Perhaps they introduced some new species. Perhaps they introduced a smart "virus" that started attacking the genetic code of people/being infected. Perhaps they just experimented for the fun of it, like the bad boys in Ringworld.

[Yansuf]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

The old FGU game "Aftermath" had a nice section on different ways "the world" (or civilization) could end.

 

However, to get to a "Gamma World" status, you need centuries or even millenium after the fall if you are trying to be "realistic" or logical. The death rate would have to be so high that the survivors would not include enough people with technical skills and knowledge to restart civilization in the short term (a generation or three) and so the knowledge is lost. If you have read "Earth Abides" that is a reasonable scenario.

 

If the game is set 500 years or more after the fall, some "mutated" or genetically engineered critters could be there, but to get many varieties you either need a "someone was doing a massive genetic engineering project" that released its results just after the fall; or you have to ignore conventional reality and use comic book type logic.

 

BTW, the nuclear winter theory was totally false. They took two data points and put a non-linear curve through them to get their results.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

The world we knew is gone.

 

The natural laws we understood have changed.

 

The nuclear war killed billions, raidiation, and natural disasters killed millions. Famine and Plague claimed still more.

 

Those who survived did what they needed to survive. Time unmeasured passed until finally mankind clawed its way again toward Civilization. The Human race is adaptable given time and radiation, genetic engineering, and mother nature combined to bring forth new sub species of man.

 

More later

 

QM

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

Here's a pretty decent, logical post-apoc setting. No wild mutants and stuff, though. If you find a way to rationalize mutants and high-tech to your liking, this could be a decent skeleton to build on....

[Sketchpad]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

To explain the drop of technology there are a few things to think about/use ...

- After a nuclear war, perhaps the Earth is encompassed by a large EMP field that makes most electronics over-sized paper weights. This would cause mankind as a whole to begin using older methods to do various things. Skip ahead some generations and that wave of people may not even have the first inkling what a computer, car or even a machine is.

- Using genetic or biological warfare, there could be some successful sub-races created, especially if some of these "Altered" began mating and passing on their enhanced structure. Perhaps that's the true beauty of the DNA, perhaps it was designed as a mutagen that dominates normal DNA.

- Those humans that did survive with their brains and know-how intact may be Sleepers, cryogenically frozen and waiting for the signal to wake them up. Now, some years later after the EMP field has finally died down, they recived the signal and awaken to a world not their own.

- The invasion angle could be used in many ways. Perhaps the aliens are the ones that launched the EMP field and are using Earth as a new kind of petrie dish? Or maybe the war was fought against them and now, like the people of Earth, have learned to adapt and become the Orcs of this new world?

[keithcurtis]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

There could be forces actively working against the resumption of civilization.

 

In Lucifer's Hammer, the Cannibal Army came very close to preventing the resumption of order and respect for civilization.

 

In Isaac Asimov's Twilight, the artifacts and records of civilization are destroyed literally overnight in a desperate atempt to provide light. Also, much of the population goes mad, faced with its most primal fear.

 

In A Canticle for Leibowitz, there was a vast cultural movement condeming the academics and technologists that made WWIII possible. Book Learning and technology is frowned upon, burned, and actively persecuted. Being a "Good Simpleton" is a virtue.

 

In my own Savage Earth campaign, human civilzation is intentionally dismantled by what is presumed to be an outside force. Also, physical laws have been altered. The universe operates under a different set of axioms that disallows much of the previous technology. Gunpowder will not ignite, for instance.

 

A believable apocalypse (ie one that presents us with decent RPG opportunities) merely requires a carefully crafted set of axioms and assumptions.

 

Keith "As long as we can play mutated talking animals with laser swords, who cares?" Curtis

[Arac-4105]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

The second edition of Palladium's "After the Bomb" RPG came up with another explanation for walking, talking animals: genetic engineering brought to a home-user level, used to 'uplift' pets and make designer animals, gets used improperly by school kids and a virulent disease spreads across the world like wildfire.

Naturally, somebody in the military panics after 75% of the populace drops dead and the nukes fly...

 

(others should feel free to correct me on this, I haven't read the background in a long time)

[azato]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

Keith, I like the work you have done with your campaign world. I especially liked the black globes that randomly messed with people. You have some real creative stuff.

 

Here is what I was thinking about today.

 

Suppose an alien force came in and decided to use us like a corn or soybean test plot. The intent was to provided a "garden" of which to later harvest for repopulating other worlds.

 

1. They wiped out or captured most people but allowed some Pure Strain Humans to continue.

 

2. They created some Trans-humans that are "better" than PSH and are able to in-breed, to an extent, with other races.

 

3. The brought some other creatures from other planets.

 

4. The aliens combined some human traits with alien creatures (Arms on already sentient snakes)

 

5. Genentically modifed some humans.

 

 

The groups are tailored to maintain a edge in certain domains but have a saftey mechanism to keep them from becoming dominant (like fertility rates)

 

Perhaps the climate has been altered in a drastic way such as melting icecaps.

 

Pehaps each continent has it own unique configuration. Maybe the dinosaurs were an early programme and were removed. Now they can be repopulated.

 

The most adavanced people would be the PSH but their extreme xenophopia (they remember exactly what happened) and their attempt to "restore" areas in their domain keep them from gaining too much power. They have some high technology which they can repair but cannot replace.

 

The Trans-humans are not much differetn than PSH. They know they are not PSH which give them a more open attitude. They share the general human culture. As a group they have the most diverge range of habitats. They have some fairly decent cities - refining oil (to a point) and manufacturing (to a point) but something keeps them from dominating (I am not sure what - maybe the jungle/forest grows to aggressively to be tamed)

 

For modified humans - a Psi group with low ego workers. Very weak physically, and very low birth rates keep them in check. They beleive themeselve superior and most groups believe them to be a severe threat.

 

Ghouls - live in wrecked cites. Other than their eating habits, they are not bad people - just misunderstood. They have been modified to be night creatures and to digest nasty stuff. They savange technological stuff and are willing to trade. They war with the transhuman survivors who rule during the day.

 

Fish men - Since many of the cities are fully or partially underwater they would have access to soggy technology. They would be a possible threat to maritime activity.

 

Some of the races from Jourune would work very nicely especially since they were adapted to hero.

 

 

 

What happened to the Aliens? I don't know. They spent a few decades messing with the planet and collecting people. They spent a hundred years repopulating and policing it, of sorts, and then *disappeared*. Their ultimate plan was to use this planet as a hybrid test plot. The stuff that worked would be used in other planets and maybe for different applications. While the species were "balanced out", the suvival of the fittest would take hold and weed out the weaker ones. Not only did this planet provide a test plot - it also provided a storage container.

 

Thoughts???

[keithcurtis]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

That sounds like a decent rationale for a cool game world. It could justify any number of unusual critters besides just the intelligent ones, too.

Feed animals, beasts of burden, sporting beasts, population control predators, etc.

 

Keith "If it sounds good to you, develop it" Curtis

[Curufea]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

I suggest you read Wormwood by Terry Dowling. It deals with xenoforming the Earth.

[azato]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

Some Maps of a flooded world/US

[keithcurtis]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

Cool maps, especially the first. Source?

The last one didn't look particularly flooded, though.

Before I decided to turn the earth sideways for Savage Earth, I briefly considered flooding it. I decided not to, when I realized how much Cool Stuff would be inaccesible to the players.

 

 

Keith "Posting from the San Joaquin Sea" Curtis

[azato]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

http://www.zetatalk.com/poleshft/p30.htm

 

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/topo/state.html'>http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/topo/state.html

 

The flooded topo is somewhere in here

 

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/

[azato]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

I think that that the gaining of manufacturing resources would largely be through recycling. I believe that most of the mining done today is not of rich veins, but rather the extraction of element from the ore. Often the ratio is very small. A large volume of ore in needed to extract a small amount of copper. In the post Apocolyptic world they would get most of their stuff from reclaiming the material from cities. Rebar and iron from buildings and roads. Copper from wires. etc. Thus for the frontier economy may be about bringing back such materials to the living cities. Those who control the 'dead' cities have the rescources but those who own the 'living' cities have the means of manufacture and limited technology.

 

Amphibious/fish people would have a great amount of material to barter with - at least the stuff that is not destoyed by salt water. They lack the means of producing anything signifcant themselvels - since they cannot work or smelt metal by heating it.

 

 

My thoughts for the day.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

Amphibious/fish people would have a great amount of material to barter with - at least the stuff that is not destoyed by salt water. They lack the means of producing anything signifcant themselvels - since they cannot work or smelt metal by heating it.

Seafloor volcanic vents? They'd probably have to pump a stream of cooler water on the blacksmith, but it might be possible. The problem would be keeping metal implements usable in seawaater, given pre-industrial technology.

 

This brings up something I've run into a couple of times when thinking about aquatic races for the Savage Earth. They would love to have a regular supply of metal implements to replace deteriorating ones (perhaps made of gold?). What other things might they trade for? And what might they have to trade in return?

 

Also, it seems that surface sailors would pretty much be at the mercy of an aquatic race. Assuming they can get the metal, what's to stop them from swimming under ships with a brace and auger and sending them to Davy Jones? Any seafaring race would probably need to pay tribute to the underwater folk.

 

Anyon who has ideas on this matter, please feel free to share. I'd be happy to steal-- eh borrow-- eh, be inspired by anything the brilliant minds here come up with.

 

Keith "Submarine thinking" Curtis

[Curufea]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

Shaped coral immediately springs to mind. High protein foods/seaweeds/fish.

Raw materials near said volcanic vents.

[azato]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

Seafloor volcanic vents? They'd probably have to pump a stream of cooler water on the blacksmith, but it might be possible. The problem would be keeping metal implements usable in seawaater, given pre-industrial technology.

 

This brings up something I've run into a couple of times when thinking about aquatic races for the Savage Earth. They would love to have a regular supply of metal implements to replace deteriorating ones (perhaps made of gold?). What other things might they trade for? And what might they have to trade in return?

 

Also, it seems that surface sailors would pretty much be at the mercy of an aquatic race. Assuming they can get the metal, what's to stop them from swimming under ships with a brace and auger and sending them to Davy Jones? Any seafaring race would probably need to pay tribute to the underwater folk.

 

Plastic would probably be the best material for an aquatic race. Today carbon-fiber provides the rigidity of steel but not the durablity. Perhaps they may have devopled plastics that are more durable than they currently are (plas-steel)? Ceramics - perhaps.

 

The aquatic race would have the resouces of a thousand sunken cities to draw upon. The artifiacts and the metals (both precious and non-precious) would prove valuable for trade. I see that they would need the surface worlders to fabricate to their specific needs. Working machinery is hard to imagine under water. While working metal around vents may be possible, I think that it would prove more difficult than a simple trade. (50lbs of steel for 5 harpoons)

 

Yes, I do agree that an intellgent aquatic race would rule the seas AND be a treat against low defense shore communities.

[Curufea]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

On a side note, the latest version of Cyberpunk devotes a quarter of the character classes to sea-based/living cultures.

[azato]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

On a side note' date=' the latest version of Cyberpunk devotes a quarter of the character classes to sea-based/living cultures.[/quote']

 

I will have to check it out. It will go on my list.

 

 

On gunpowder - saltpeter, carbon and sulphur. Carbon is easy to get. Other than Yellowstone, where would a person find naturally occuring sulphur? Where do you get/manufacture saltpeter - at least in a pre-industrial aged civilization?

[JDHMorgan2003]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

sulphur is found in hot springs, saltpeter is found under dung piles

[JDHMorgan2003]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

oh, and for carbon, you would need charcoal-burners...a whole new profession that hasn't existed in about 200 years

[keithcurtis]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

Lesson here:

Don't pile your dung and old charcoal briquets onto Old Faithful.

 

BOOM!

 

Keith "Now if only I could find some bamboo and diamonds" Curtis

[azato]

Re: Making a Post-Apoc "logical"

 

I got this picture from WIKIPEDIA. At a quick read (on lunch break here) it did not appear that all springs are sulphur springs. Indeed I am not sure which ones are. Is the sulphur geographical? Is it kinda random? Looks like the west holds the key to gunpowder production.