Legal or No: Multiple SFX on power, sans Linked

[CrosshairCollie]

Is it legal to have a power possess two (or more) special effects at the same time, without doing them as two linked powers (which, as such, would apply separately to defenses)?

 

For the curious, the example in question is modelling the Rainbow Blast spell from D&D's Spell Compendium, which deals 1d6 damage of each of the five energy types in the system (with increasing die types as your level goes up).

 

So, is something like 2d6 (Fire) + 2d6 (Acid) + 2d6 (Cold) + 2d6 (Electric) + 2d6 (Sonic), adding up to a single 10d6 EB rather than 5 wussy attacks, legal?

[McCoy]

Re: Legal or No: Multiple SFX on power, sans Linked

 

Humm, seems to me the SX is Magic. I would build this as a compound power, 1d6 NND + 1d6 NND (different defense) etc. Unless target has all 5 approperate defenses, or something like damage reduction vs. Magic, gets hit by an effective 5d6 NND. Even if has one or two of the approperate defenses, the rest get through.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Legal or No: Multiple SFX on power, sans Linked

 

Humm' date=' seems to me the SX is Magic. I would build this as a compound power, 1d6 NND + 1d6 NND (different defense) etc. Unless target has all 5 approperate defenses, or something like damage reduction vs. Magic, gets hit by an effective 5d6 NND. Even if has one or two of the approperate defenses, the rest get through.[/quote']

 

With a GM handwave for having five different NNDs, I assume.

 

Hmm.

Fire: LS Heat (duh)

Cold: LS Cold (duh II)

Acid: Hardened PD?

Electric: ED forcefield?

Sonic: Hearing Flash Def?

[Robyn]

Re: Legal or No: Multiple SFX on power, sans Linked

 

Is it legal to have a power possess two (or more) special effects at the same time, without doing them as two linked powers (which, as such, would apply separately to defenses)?

 

For the curious, the example in question is modelling the Rainbow Blast spell from D&D's Spell Compendium, which deals 1d6 damage of each of the five energy types in the system

 

D&D may have five energy types, and everything must fall within exactly one of them, but in HERO you can have, for example, a "steam" attack; both the "protection from heat" Forcefields and the "protection from water" Forcefields will block it. Just come up with a SFX that counts as all five (I'd say "Rainbow" would cover it) and you're set.

[McCoy]

Re: Legal or No: Multiple SFX on power, sans Linked

 

With a GM handwave for having five different NNDs, I assume.

 

Hmm.

Fire: LS Heat (duh)

Cold: LS Cold (duh II)

Acid: Hardened PD?

Electric: ED forcefield?

Sonic: Hearing Flash Def?

I model acid as drains, so I would say Power Defense vs acid.

 

I would grant the handwave on several 1d6 NND's even linked in some fashion.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Legal or No: Multiple SFX on power, sans Linked

 

D&D may have five energy types' date=' and everything must fall within exactly one of them, but in HERO you can have, for example, a "steam" attack; both the "protection from heat" Forcefields [b']and[/b] the "protection from water" Forcefields will block it. Just come up with a SFX that counts as all five (I'd say "Rainbow" would cover it) and you're set.

 

Yeah, but that's the price of trying to do a 'tight' translation. Sometimes, you wind up doing a little square-peg-round-holing.

[JohnTaber]

Re: Legal or No: Multiple SFX on power, sans Linked

 

My first reaction when I read this post was simply..."what cheesy player came up with that?!?" After thinking about it I guess I'm fine with it. If a villain hit one of the effects only the small dice of effect would apply. At least I would make that ruling.

 

I actually think the multi-NND attack is more questionable. Even if the special effect is good the attack would still be almost entirely useful. NND is all or nothing...not in this case.

 

Wow...never ceases to amaze me what folks do with Hero...I love it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Legal or No: Multiple SFX on power, sans Linked

 

I personally wouldn't have to much problem with multiple SFX on a power...

 

in the case of Rainbow Brite here... i would say they're all Magic SFX and equal proportion various Elemental SFX, and got with that.

 

Worst case scenario I would put a +1/4 Multiple SFX At Once Advantage on it.

[tesuji]

Re: Legal or No: Multiple SFX on power, sans Linked

 

for a normal supers game, i wouldn't have a problem with it. whenever someones vuln was triggered it would be for just the 2d6 level tho.

 

In a more tightly themed game, where say "War of the ELEMENTALS storyline meant he hit varying types of elementals a LOT, Their writeup would determine the result.

 

If they typically have a vuln that would be hit but no special defenses, so that the net effect was a 11-13 dice attack in essense, then require +1/4 for SFX.

 

If they have bonus defenses, so that the net result is something like "the cold 2d6 gets x2 but the fire 2d6 is eliminated by the extra fire resistance" then its again a wash and no modifier needed.

 

Net result...

 

1. if you don't charge him nonus for it, then you need to not let it be worth that much in play, so pick your storyline and design your adversaries apprtopriately to make this true. Every once in a while, he gets an extra dice or two effect and every once in a while he loses similar effect.

 

2. If you charge him +1/4, make sure he sees benefit often, small benefits mostly, like 1-3 extra dice of effect. Choose your storylines and design your adversaries so that he seees reasonable benefits from his 12 cp spent on it often enough.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Legal or No: Multiple SFX on power, sans Linked

 

If you treat it as a +1/4 Power Advantage,here's how I would write it up in Hero System terms:

Multiple SFX:This Attack powers is considered to have multiple different special effects simultaneously.In game terms,a target struck by this attack must use the LOWER of its PD or ED to determine the damage it takes.

[Ndreare]

Re: Legal or No: Multiple SFX on power, sans Linked

 

I would build the power with the idea that the varying effects weeken the target. i.e. penetrating. and the Multi FX would equate to the same thing as a variable frequensy laser in Rifts.

 

37 Multi Blast: EB 5d6 (vs. ED), Penetrating (+1/2) (37 Active Points) 4

 

Then tack on what ever is needed to make it a spell in your game. Of course as D&D has a little differnt scale than HERO you may need to adjust the dice.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Legal or No: Multiple SFX on power, sans Linked

 

While I'm not familiar with the Ranbow Blast spell, I am familiar with the game mechanics of D&D. One major problem converting something (particularly a spell) from D&D to Hero is the differences in how mechanics interact. In this case, it's how attacks and damage intereact with defenses and armor. In Hero, the success or failure of the attack roll is influenced by the relative agility/dexterity of the attacker and target, plus modifiers for range and size. In D&D, the roll is also influenced by how much armor (for the purpose of this post, armor is anything that stops, absorps, turns or otherwise prevents a "hit" from doing damage to the target) the target has. In Hero, such armor is handled separately, directly reducing damage done rather than making the damage all or nothing. It's this element that makes converting something Rainbow Blast into Hero.

 

I'd suggest starting from scratch, and then using Hero System mechanics to capture the original feel of what the Rainbow Blast spell really is. Is it several different attacks all rolled into one? Is it a single attack that simply has all the SFX advantages and SFX drawbacks of several types of SFX? Would/should the target's defenses be considered at all in whether or not any part of the attack does damage? Since I don't know the spell, and these are a lot of questions, I won't make any assumptions or suggestions on where to go from here. I can think of too many ways this spell can possibly be written up for me to list them all at the moment.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Legal or No: Multiple SFX on power, sans Linked

 

While I'm not familiar with the Ranbow Blast spell' date=' I am familiar with the game mechanics of D&D. One major problem converting something (particularly a spell) from D&D to Hero is the differences in how mechanics interact. In this case, it's how attacks and damage intereact with defenses and armor. In Hero, the success or failure of the attack roll is influenced by the relative agility/dexterity of the attacker and target, plus modifiers for range and size. In D&D, the roll is also influenced by how much armor (for the purpose of this post, armor is anything that stops, absorps, turns or otherwise prevents a "hit" from doing damage to the target) the target has. In Hero, such armor is handled separately, directly reducing damage done rather than making the damage all or nothing. It's this element that makes converting something [i']Rainbow Blast[/i] into Hero.

 

I'd suggest starting from scratch, and then using Hero System mechanics to capture the original feel of what the Rainbow Blast spell really is. Is it several different attacks all rolled into one? Is it a single attack that simply has all the SFX advantages and SFX drawbacks of several types of SFX? Would/should the target's defenses be considered at all in whether or not any part of the attack does damage? Since I don't know the spell, and these are a lot of questions, I won't make any assumptions or suggestions on where to go from here. I can think of too many ways this spell can possibly be written up for me to list them all at the moment.

 

The original spell deals 1 die of damage of each of the five mentioned energy types (It's an AE Line, so Reflex Half, but that's not relevant at the moment). Each die would be counted individually against a creature's Vulnerabilities or Resistances. So, a Fire-subtype creature (Fire Giant, say) would ignore the die rolled for Fire damage, but take 150% of the Cold die (and normal damage from Acid, Electric, and Sonic).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Legal or No: Multiple SFX on power, sans Linked

 

The original spell deals 1 die of damage of each of the five mentioned energy types (It's an AE Line' date=' so Reflex Half, but that's not relevant at the moment). Each die would be counted individually against a creature's Vulnerabilities or Resistances. So, a Fire-subtype creature (Fire Giant, say) would ignore the die rolled for Fire damage, but take 150% of the Cold die (and normal damage from Acid, Electric, and Sonic).[/quote']

From that description I would say you are looking at a series of Linked individual attacks. Assuming you want to bring over the "defend against each type seperately" aspect.

 

Though in Hero the difference in the way armor works may make that impractical.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Legal or No: Multiple SFX on power, sans Linked

 

The original spell deals 1 die of damage of each of the five mentioned energy types (It's an AE Line' date=' so Reflex Half, but that's not relevant at the moment). Each die would be counted individually against a creature's Vulnerabilities or Resistances. So, a Fire-subtype creature (Fire Giant, say) would ignore the die rolled for Fire damage, but take 150% of the Cold die (and normal damage from Acid, Electric, and Sonic).[/quote']

 

Based on that description, it looks like armor type defense isn't involved. Reflex save could equate to a normal attack roll in Hero System, so it might a series of separate Linked NND attacks, each with AoE: Line, Non selective.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Legal or No: Multiple SFX on power, sans Linked

 

I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around an attack that does both heat and cold damage to the same point on the victim's body simultaneously. If the different 'rainbow colors' hit even a little apart (so it can fry one bit of flesh while freeezing another bit), I'd make each part reduced by armor (ie, linked seperate attacks). But then, I've always hated the way D&D 3.0/3.5 does elemental stuff, and I'd never try porting that spell over.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Legal or No: Multiple SFX on power, sans Linked

 

So' date=' is something like 2d6 (Fire) + 2d6 (Acid) + 2d6 (Cold) + 2d6 (Electric) + 2d6 (Sonic), adding up to a single 10d6 EB rather than 5 wussy attacks, legal?[/quote']Looks legal to me. It might be a bit time-consuming to work out the effects of someone with multiple Vulnerabilities and limited Defenses.... lessee....

 

10d6 EB with the 5@2d6 SFX types hits the target for 35 STUN, 10 BODY.

 

Target has 20 rED, x2 Vulnerability to Cold, and a 10 ED force field only vs. Fire

 

Normal defenses subtract against the STUN, except that the 2d6 Cold is doubled, and the 2d6 Fire would be taken care of (up to ten points) by the force field.

 

You'd have to keep track of which dice represent which SFX (maybe five pairs of different-colored dice?). Say each 2d6 hit for 7 points of STUN.

 

Then the Fire STUN doesn't get through, and the Cold STUN goes to 14 points.

 

35 - 7 (force field) + 7 (Vulnerability) = 35 - 20 ED = 15 points of STUN damage.

 

[repeat analysis for BODY]

 

I like it! the only time it gets hairy is if the target has multiple Vulnerabilities, Susceptibilities, and/or limited Defenses.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Legal or No: Multiple SFX on power, sans Linked

 

I think SCUBA had a pretty good idea of how this might be handled given the possibility of targets having funky defenses/vulnerabilities. If the multiple SFX on certain DCs thing can work, it must work fairly with all possibilities. So far, having each set of SFX rolled separately seem to be an excellent start, that way you know how much of the total damage comes from which SFX.

 

Let's assume that 10d6ness, which is 2d6 each of Electrical, Fire, Acid, Sonic and Cold. The dice are rolled and we get totals of 7 STUN/2 BODY of Electrical, 9/2 Fire, 9/2 Acid, 4/1 Sonic and 9/3 Cold, and a grand total of 38 STUN/10 BODY.

 

If a target has no special defenses or vulnerabilities, the total is applied to his defenses nornally and everything works.

 

If the target has a Vulnerability to any of these SFX, the damage rolled for that effect is multiplies and modified total is applied to defenses and everything works.

 

If the target has some defenses bought Only Versus [sFX], those defenses are applied to the attack first, and only versus the labled SFX, with the remaining total being appled to the characters normal defenses. Everything works.

 

If the target has some defense bought Not Versus [sFX], treat it as defenses bought "only versus" the other SFX and apply it first, with the remaining damage applied to the target's other defenses. Everything is still working.

 

If the target has Damage Reduction, Only Versus [sFX], and doesn't have any regular defenses that would have blocked a specific SFX first, that SFX is applied to defenses last, then remaining damage, limited to the effect roll on those dice, are modified by DR. Everything still working.

 

If the target has DR, Not Versus [sFX], apply in a similar manner as you would normal defenses, treating the DR as Only Vs the other SFX.

 

If the target has Missile Deflection, Only Vs [sFX], a successful roll with only negate the DCs of that SFX, with the attacker making a to hit roll and potentialy damaging the target with the remaining dice. Same thing if the Not Vs.. Still working!

 

If the target has Absorption Only Vs/Not Vs [sFX]... this is getting obvious at this point.

 

If the target has DCV levels with Only/Not Vs [sFX], it applies to the entire attack.

 

If the target has Desol that is affected by one or more of the attack's SFX, the damage from those SFX affect him normally and are applied to his defenses (as listed above).

 

The only bit of confusion at this point is whether this attack is applied wholly against PD or ED. There is no real way to split it up using the above methods, it has to be applied all to one or the other. Electricity and Fire would normally be against ED, while Sonic and Cold against PD (in my opinion), and Acid would flip back and forth depending on the type of acid it's supposed to be, but I'd suggest ED because it's magical. With the majority of the SFX against ED, ED would seem to be most appropriate, though any defense (PD or ED) that has an "only/not" Limitation would automatically apply as above.

 

Does this sound reasonable to anyone?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Legal or No: Multiple SFX on power, sans Linked

 

Is it legal to have a power possess two (or more) special effects at the same time, without doing them as two linked powers (which, as such, would apply separately to defenses)?

 

For the curious, the example in question is modelling the Rainbow Blast spell from D&D's Spell Compendium, which deals 1d6 damage of each of the five energy types in the system (with increasing die types as your level goes up).

 

So, is something like 2d6 (Fire) + 2d6 (Acid) + 2d6 (Cold) + 2d6 (Electric) + 2d6 (Sonic), adding up to a single 10d6 EB rather than 5 wussy attacks, legal?

I've just skimmed everything but the initial post, so forgive me if I am repeating anything, but what you are trying to create is not a spell with two or more Special Effects. Special Effects are not categorizable or countable like that. The SFX of the power are simply the discription of how the power works. So the Special Effects of your power are that it simultaneously blasts the target with bits of fire, cold, electricity, and sound (or however you actually want to describe the details).

 

How and if your power interacts with another power that has SFX-limiting Limitations or inherent restrictions (such as Intense Heat Safe Environment Life Support or a power with something like, "Only vs. Fire (-1/2)") are going to be up to the common and dramatic sense of the GM as always. Legal? Certainly! It's what our favorite system is all about!

 

EDIT: Now if you are talking about applying the attack against different defenses in some way, such as the lower/higher/average of the target's PD and ED, I think it is going to take AVLD or some custom Modifier. That is a mechanics thing, not a Special Effects thing.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Legal or No: Multiple SFX on power, sans Linked

 

I like it! the only time it gets hairy is if the target has multiple Vulnerabilities' date=' Susceptibilities, and/or limited Defenses.[/quote']

 

And, seriously ... how often does that happen? Vulnerabilities and Susceptibilities are far more common than Limited Defenses, at least in my personal experience. Most fire-tossers I see take a Vulnerability to cold, Life Support: Heat, then call it a day.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Legal or No: Multiple SFX on power, sans Linked

 

Does this sound reasonable to anyone?

Yes, a good expansion on my more limited analysis.

 

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Edit: "You must spread some Reputation around, yadda yadda..."