What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

[nexus]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

I'm partial to Autumn Sunset.

[Lucius]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Aren't there legal problems with using the title "Super Hero?"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Hero

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Aren't there legal problems with using the title "Super Hero?"

 

Yes. Marvel and DC have a joint trademark on the word, so any publication using that term in the title will likely be sued. If Marvel and DC don't sue, they risk losing trademark protection.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Aren't there legal problems with using the title "Super Hero?"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Hero

 

Yes, as Andrew as pointed out. That still doesn't change what the genre should be called.

 

Now that I think of it, I believe Marvel and DC only own the rights to "superhero" not super hero (difference between one word or two). I think they also own superpower, but I'm not entirely sure. Regardless, these terms have been used throughout the Champions books in the body text.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

While I disagree with you on some of the specifics' date=' I can get behind what seems to be the overall point. Dark Champions, IMO, should have been more about Street Level Superheroes.[/quote']

 

What's a "street level superhero?" Are we talking something like Batman, or something like Riggs and Murtah (sp?) from Lethal Weapon? From what I understand from reading the back cover and first few pages of Dark Champions, the genre is about Lethal Weapon type characters, or maybe James Bond, or something along those lines. The Punisher would also quallify. Any kind of "superhero" though, street level or not, is a part of the superhero genre by definition, and thus represented Champions/the superheroic genre book.

[nexus]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

What's a "street level superhero?" Are we talking something like Batman' date=' or something like Riggs and Murtah (sp?) from Lethal Weapon? From what I understand from reading the back cover and first few pages of Dark Champions, the genre is about Lethal Weapon type characters, or maybe James Bond, or something along those lines. The Punisher would also quallify. Any kind of "superhero" though, street level or not, is a part of the superhero genre by definition, and thus represented Champions/the superheroic genre book.[/quote']

 

IMO, Street Level superheroes are characters like Daredevil, Moon Knight, Batman (In some forms), Vigilante etc.They work on a level that is closer to "realistic" than full blown superheroes, their opposistion tends to more "regular" type of crime than Dr Destroyer types trying to blow up the world, but some of the trappings of comics are there (costumes, code names, etc). Fourth Edition Dark Champions seemed to focus more of this type of superhero: gritter, lower power levels, more fantastic, sometimees less black and white, fewer "inborn" powers over all more focus on training and equipment and general "bad***ness. Different enough that I could see it having its own sourcebook. I think "Dark Champions" would fit as a title for that. Modern Day action/adventure heroic campaigns would warrant another book.

 

I'm not going to get into what the Punisher is, that's a matter of opinion. I though I was agreeing with you, Dust Raven but maybe I missed your point? If so I apologize.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

IMO, Street Level superheroes are characters like Daredevil, Moon Knight, Batman (In some forms), Vigilante etc.They work on a level that is closer to "realistic" than full blown superheroes, their opposistion tends to more "regular" type of crime than Dr Destroyer types trying to blow up the world, but some of the trappings of comics are there (costumes, code names, etc). Fourth Edition Dark Champions seemed to focus more of this type of superhero: gritter, lower power levels, more fantastic, sometimees less black and white, fewer "inborn" powers over all more focus on training and equipment and general "bad***ness. Different enough that I could see it having its own sourcebook. I think "Dark Champions" would fit as a title for that. Modern Day action/adventure heroic campaigns would warrant another book.

 

I'm not going to get into what the Punisher is, that's a matter of opinion. I though I was agreeing with you, Dust Raven but maybe I missed your point? If so I apologize.

 

Oh no, I don't think we disagree on the definition of what a any kind of superhero is. If we disagree on anything, it's about what Dark Champions, as a genre for the Hero System, is supposed to simulate. From what I've read of the book, it's not at all about streel level superheroes, or any kind of superhero, it's about heroic adventure in a non-superpowered normalish modern world. Street level superheroes is an element of the Champions genre, just like Galactic Champions and Teen Champions are. Dark Champions seems like a massive example of a book that was given the wrong name. If Dark Champions was just a subgenre of Champions (like those other two), I wouldn't have any problems with it (other than Champions not being named [something] Hero).

[nexus]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Oh no' date=' I don't think we disagree on the definition of what a any kind of superhero is. If we disagree on anything, it's about what Dark Champions, as a genre for the Hero System, is supposed to simulate. From what I've read of the book, it's not at all about streel level superheroes, or any kind of superhero, it's about heroic adventure in a non-superpowered normalish modern world. Street level superheroes is an element of the Champions genre, just like Galactic Champions and Teen Champions are. Dark Champions seems like a massive example of a book that was given the wrong name. If Dark Champions was just a subgenre of Champions (like those other two), I wouldn't have any problems with it (other than Champions not being named [something'] Hero).

 

Regarding the Fifth Edition Dark Champions I agree entirely. It's a wonderful sourcebook (one of the better ones, IMO) but it wasn't quite what I was expecting.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Regarding the Fifth Edition Dark Champions I agree entirely. It's a wonderful sourcebook (one of the better ones' date=' IMO) but it wasn't quite what I was expecting.[/quote']

 

Yeah. I'm currently running a more gritty, "street level"ish Champions game, and thought picking up Dark Champions would give me some ideas on how to more accurately run the genre, only to discover it's full of super spies and cop drama. I don't want cop drama. I want gritty, rusted, iron-age superheroes. On top of this, my mind is still in limbo about what Dark Champions: The Animated Series is for...

[Rkane_1]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Yeah. I'm currently running a more gritty' date=' "street level"ish Champions game, and thought picking up Dark Champions would give me some ideas on how to more accurately run the genre, only to discover it's full of super spies and cop drama. I don't want cop drama. I want gritty, rusted, iron-age superheroes. On top of this, my mind is still in limbo about what Dark Champions: The Animated Series is for...[/quote']

 

Four color, street level? Umm....yeah. I guess it would be fun but not the reason I normally play a "street level" game.

[Lucius]

Still More Reason to Dump the Normal Characteristic Maxima Rule

 

I thought of this tricky problem. Let's say Benjamin Dover makes a character for a Heroic campaign called Clumsy Lightning. He does things in this order:

1. At character creation he sells DEX down to 5. His figured SPD is now 1.5.

2. He then buys SPD up to 4 by spending 25 points still during chargen.

3. Later on he figures out that he can't hit the side of a barn while barns hit him every time and decides to buy up his DEX. Over time, he accrues +10 DEX up to 15 DEX.

 

At this point, what's his SPD? Is it 5 or 4.5? Should he be spending 4 points per DEX since his figured SPD is being pushed over the NCM? Should he go home in shame for being such a munchkin?

 

[quote=Steve Long

HERO System Line Developer]Once a character hits the NCM breakpoint, he has to start paying double to buy up a Characteristic, be it Primary or Figured. Characters can't be allowed to buy down Primary Characteristics, buy Figured Characteristics up to the NCM breakpoint, and then go beyond the breakpoint for no extra cost by later buying up the Primaries; that would be a ridiculous loophole. In this situation, when the character buys up his Primary, you have to recalculate the cost of the Figured to take NCM into account. If he has points left over, he can spend them on something else.

 

For example, suppose a character sells back his DEX to 5. That gives him SPD 1, though with “5 points†toward buying SPD 2. He spends 25 points to get SPD 4, the maximum he can have without the NCM doubling coming into effect. Later in the campaign, he spends 30 points to buy his DEX up to 15. In a campaign that doesn’t use the NCM rules, that would give him SPD 5. But in an NCM campaign, he can’t have SPD 5 without the doubling rule being invoked, so you have to recalculate things — give him the 25 points he spent on SPD back and let him spend them again. He spends 15 points to maintain his SPD 4, leaving him 10 points remaining. He can combine those 10 points with another 10 points (if he has them) to spend 20 points to buy his SPD, if that’s what he wants, or he can save them, or he can spend them on something else.

 

And of course the GM’s always free to restrict or guide this process as he sees fit.

__________________

Steve Long

HERO System Line Developer

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary fondly remembers the robots with Normal Characteristic Maxima

[nexus]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

If we're still talking about fundamental changes. I'd make attributes more expensive or some how much difficult to increase at least. Right now they're more cost effective than skills and skill levels (particuilarly in combat) and that doesn't fit my own, personal SOD.

[CBikle]

Re: [Thread FlashbacRe: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

 

 

 

Maybe one day when I'm interested in what this rambling is in relation to, I'll ask about it...but til then, do keep it to yourself.

 

The Spider-Man vs. Firelord transcripts have been compiled for easy reference and makes a great stocking-stuffer !!!

[Dust Raven]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

I thought of this tricky problem. Let's say Benjamin Dover makes a character for a Heroic campaign called Clumsy Lightning. He does things in this order:

1. At character creation he sells DEX down to 5. His figured SPD is now 1.5.

2. He then buys SPD up to 4 by spending 25 points still during chargen.

3. Later on he figures out that he can't hit the side of a barn while barns hit him every time and decides to buy up his DEX. Over time, he accrues +10 DEX up to 15 DEX.

 

At this point, what's his SPD? Is it 5 or 4.5? Should he be spending 4 points per DEX since his figured SPD is being pushed over the NCM? Should he go home in shame for being such a munchkin?

 

 

Was this from the Rules Questions board? Anyway, Steve is mostly right and even more overcomplicated in his response. The completely correct and even shorter answer is that the character buys his DEX up to 15, but only pays 20 points to do so (actually paying 30 points, but the increase in DEX causes his SPD to cost 10 points less). So he spends 20 points and now has a DEX of 15 and a SPD of 4.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

And speaking about Steve Long and fundimental changes... I believe Mr. Long can get a bit too wordy in some of his responses to rules questions, such as in the example above, while not being wordy enough is many others (such as those in which he responds "See 5ER page XX" or "with GM's permission, yes"). Personally, 90% or more of all rules question can be answered with either of those short responses, but all others should take at least a day or two, possibly a week or more, before a well thought out answer can be given. Granted, Mr. Long wrote the rules and no one can possibly know them better than he, but when there's a question not covered by the rules, it's by definition outside the realm of what they govern. I don't expect him to know the answer instantly just because he's the author. This is something he didn't think of originally and needs to think of now, and in my opinion that thinking should take some time. Slow down Mr. Long! If it wasn't already in the book you took years to write and publish, we can wait another seven days.

 

Um... well... I guess that was a bit ranty...

[Robyn]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Granted' date=' Mr. Long wrote the rules and no one can possibly know them better than he,[/quote']

 

That's what I thought, but recently I got all confused and began to wonder. In this post, was he waiting for the page reference only, or did he not know what was in the book?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Was this from the Rules Questions board? Anyway' date=' Steve is mostly right and even more overcomplicated in his response. The completely correct and even shorter answer is that the character buys his DEX up to 15, but only pays 20 points to do so (actually paying 30 points, but the increase in DEX causes his SPD to cost 10 points less). So he spends 20 points and now has a DEX of 15 and a SPD of 4.[/quote']

Quite correct. In HERO, you pay for what you have, not for how you got it. The character in the example is functionally no different from a character that bought 15 DEX and 4 SPD to begin with. Therefore, they cost the same.

 

Unlike in that other game system we all know, where a character that whose first level is Rogue and second level is Wizard automatically gets a lot more skills for no cost than a character who takes Wizard first and Rogue second.

 

HERO wins again!

[Robyn]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

If we all lived in Disneyland' date=' it would probably be multiples of four. I like it when the fundamental unit is 1.[/quote']

 

Just something I've been wondering about for a while now . . .

 

By a fundamental unit of 1, do you mean base-1 math?

 

And, if so, how exactly does that work?

[ghost-angel]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

That's what I thought' date=' but recently I got all confused and began to wonder. In this post, was he waiting for the page reference only, or did he not know what was in the book?

He's waiting for the page reference only as he does not like to post complete rules from the books. He also writes them for people to buy them and referencing a rule to a book and page encourages this.

 

He has the full transcripts on his computer after all (though not in the fully layed out version sent to the printers) and could easily just look up the ruling - but the page reference allows others to find the ruling as well.

[Lxndr]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Here's a bit of horror for you all. A long, long time ago, in a galaxy far away, on the old hero boards back in 2001 or so, there were a series of posts about the idea of making Size and Density primary characteristics. I got involved in it, and provided what I feel to be the definitive use of Size and Density in that manner.

 

Of course, to do that properly, Strength and Body (which are affected by Growth and Density Increase in the base rules) had to become figured characteristics. Since Body and Str figure into quite a few other, there was a sort of domino effect. KB Resistance also becomes a standard figured attribute.

 

There's a few other tweaks in here:

 

* Int now figures into SPD (mental reflexes; cost increased appropriately)

* Ego now figures into endurance and recovery (force of will)

 

-----

 

Primary Characteristics:

 

Siz: 10 (2/pt) - Size

Den: 10 (2/pt) - Density

Con: 10 (2/pt) - Constitution

Dex: 10 (3/pt) - Dexterity

Int: 10 (2/pt) - Intelligence

Ego: 10 (2/pt) - Ego

Pre: 10 (1/pt) - Presence

Com: 10 (1/2pt) - Comeliness

 

-----

 

Figured Characteristics:

 

PD: Den/5 (1/pt)

ED: Den/5 (1/pt)

 

End: Con + Ego (1/2pt)

Stun: Siz + Den/2 + Con/2 (1/pt)

Rec: Con/5 + Ego/5 (1/pt)

 

SPD: (Int+Dex)/10 (10/pt)

 

*Str: (Siz + Den) - 10 (1/pt)

*Body: Con/2 + Siz/3 + Den/5 (1/pt)

*KB Res: [(Siz/5) + (Den/5) - 4] (2/pt)

 

Running: 1 + Siz/2 inches (2/pt)

Leaping: Siz/5 (1/pt)

Swimming: 3 - Den/10 (1/pt)

 

Height: 1m x 2^(size/10)

Mass: 6.25kg x 2^(size/5+density/5)

 

So size 10, density 10 = 2m tall, 100kg

 

-----

 

So the equivalent of 1 level of density increase (5 points of density) works out to be 10 character points. The equivalent of 3 levels of growth (a doubling in size and a tripling in mass - so 10 extra points of size, and 5 extra points of density) is 30 points.

 

Of course, we would need to give them Costs Endurance (probably at the 1/2 level) - that brings the cost of Density down to 6.66, and the cost of 3 levels of growth down to 20 points.

 

Compared to 5 points (DI) and 15 points (growth) under the current system, that's a little bit higher. However, let's look at the figured characteristics that come with it:

 

• Old DI: +5 str, +1 PD/ED, +1" KBR
  
• New DI: +5 str, +1 PD/ED, +1" KBR, +1 Body, + 2.5 Stun, -1" Swimming
  

 

• Old Growth (3 levels): +15 Str, +3 Body, +3 Stun, +3" KBR
  
• New Growth (equivalent): +15 Str, +4 Body, +12 Stun, +3" KBR, +1 PD/ED, +2" Leap, -1" Swimming, +5" Running
  

 

The differences in cost are easily accounted for by these additional, mostly advantageous, extra benefits.

 

A bit more complex is Shrinking. The equivalent of 1 level of Shrinking is built as follows: -20 points to buy size down to 0, -10 points to buy density down to 5, +15 points to buy STR back up, +4 points to buy body back up, +2 to restore PD and ED, +12 to restore STUN, +10 to buy running back up, and +2 to buy leaping back up. This works out to 15 points. Buy it with 'costs end' and it's 10 exactly. Nice and clean.

 

We even have an easy formula for figuring out size-based OCV penalties, by the by:

 

Take your size, subtract your opponent's size, and divide by 5. That's your OCV/PER penalty to hit/see them, and their OCV/PER bonus to hit/see you.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Nice reasoning but it appears to limit the SFX for a high STR to size and density which is not necessarily the case for ALL bricks.

[Publius]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

But Strength can be bought up just like other secondary stats (still 1 per I notice). So having a low Size and even Density character does not mean your strength MUST be low.

 

I like this concept personally but some people think the existing system is too much math and this is a lot more to my (admittedly untrained) eye. It is not head explode bad, but if too much math is the major complaint of folks now... whoa.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

my bad, I hadn't read the entire post.

[Lxndr]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

Well, since the STR no longer figures into figured characteristics, it seemed silly to raise its cost on top of everything else. 1:1 seemed fair in this instance. I'd probably also put Hand Attack to a plain ordinary 5.

 

If I were going to continue along that path, Comeliness would likely become figured (5+PRE/2 seems a fair number), and I'd also figure out some way to cost both PRE and DEX at 2, so that all 'standard' characteristics would have the same cost, since Com, Dex, and Pre are the 3 oddballs out.

 

I don't like the idea of splitting splitting DEX into two attributes worth 2 points each, one for OCV and one for DCV (it doesn't seem entirely out of the question, but its impact on figuring SPD is something I find less than savory). Instead, consider this alternative:

 

Reduce the cost of DEX to 2/pt, and then make OCV and DCV based on DEX/5 instead of DEX/3.

 

One objection here could be that it reduces the number of useful break points in that particular attribute. On the other hand, since DEX and EGO are the only ones that benefit from the 3 division, it's not a huge loss, and seems to shift more importance to combat skill values. In this situation we would probably would do the same thing to EGO's combat values (the justification there being that EGO is now adding to figured attributes it didn't add to before).

 

On the other hand, raising PRE's cost and providing benefits, this I'm not totally sure about. Sure, if I set it up so it figures into Comeliness, then that's something, but that's not a lot. These are things to think about, but right now I need sleep.

[Egyptoid]

Re: What fundamental thing would you change about the Hero system?

 

number of female players.