Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Hmm... you're right. Then again' date=' they should be redone anyways. Requiring someone to have 17 STR to wield a two-handed sword - a fairly common weapon in the real world - is ridiculous. There's no way that every other Scotsman had 17+ STR.[/quote']

 

I was in a museum in Scotland a few years ago, and my wife and I were looking at a Claymore (2 handed or hand + 1/2, depends on who you ask). The museum guide noted that this was virtually never used as an HTH weapon. You needed to be mounted to make effective use of it. You held the reins and guided the horse with one hand and held the sword at the pommel with the other. You didn't swing it, just arced it down and used the momentum of the horse to provide the real "swing"

 

If you had to use it on foot, it was unweildy, so unless you were extremely strong and large, like William Wallace ("Braveheart") using it on foot wasn't a viable option. With this bit of history in mind, a high STR minimum may seem more reasonable, remembering that being below that minimum doesn't mean you can't use the weapon, only that penalties apply to its use.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Instead of thinking of Martial Arts as "limited STR" try thinking of them as "Limited Hand Attack."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary observes that we're just throwing out a suggestion.

 

Interesting, because Phil indicated that he feels (and I agree) that Martial Arts extra Damage Classes are actually ADVANTAGED Strength. (I tend to agree with that.)

 

On the Martial Maneuvers that add damage, I'm inclined to think that they should START at 5 points per DC added... then modify from that based on OCV/DCV mods and effects.

 

I actually would not change the STR mins in most cases... as I think Heroic games should have reasons whya 16 STR isn't as effective as a 17 STR for use of weapons and such.

 

I'd also change the penalties some. If STR is really "doubled" for every 5 points, then a weapon with STR min 5 or higher should be flat out unusable... and if you are 1-4 points below... you are equal that in minuses to your base CV. A weapon that is so heavy it should take two of you to weild is a pretty hefty weapon.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Its when I have to think about things like this that I get to thinking how much I actually dislike characteristics and figured characteristics in particular.

 

If half of my utility in STR is figured characteristics then why should the affect the solid world be applied to the whole cost of my STR - surely it should only be tjhe lifting capacity more than the damage causing aspect.

 

How do we work out those numbers? Not possible really - a black box in a game that aspires to be a toolbox.

 

Anyway - to answer the question - I would think carefully about Desolid and the affects the solid world advantage...

 

 

Doc

[RDU Neil]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Its when I have to think about things like this that I get to thinking how much I actually dislike characteristics and figured characteristics in particular.

 

If half of my utility in STR is figured characteristics then why should the affect the solid world be applied to the whole cost of my STR - surely it should only be tjhe lifting capacity more than the damage causing aspect.

 

How do we work out those numbers? Not possible really - a black box in a game that aspires to be a toolbox.

 

Anyway - to answer the question - I would think carefully about Desolid and the affects the solid world advantage...

 

 

Doc

 

I agree on the Figured Characteristics bit. My big desire for 6th Edition is to do away with them completely... and then define specific/unique game effects to each characteristic without overlap where possible. Then cost each characteristic appropriately in comparative utility. (Of course, comparitive utility requires a design intent, which seems to be what is missing in Hero.)

 

As it is, I'm not about to do a full rewrite myself... so I was looking at a smaller, manageable change... primarily 2 for 1 cost for STR and then recosting Martial Arts... primarily designed for Low Level, non-supers style games.

 

That I think I can handle.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

I agree on the Figured Characteristics bit. My big desire for 6th Edition is to do away with them completely... and then define specific/unique game effects to each characteristic without overlap where possible. Then cost each characteristic appropriately in comparative utility. (Of course, comparitive utility requires a design intent, which seems to be what is missing in Hero.)

 

As it is, I'm not about to do a full rewrite myself... so I was looking at a smaller, manageable change... primarily 2 for 1 cost for STR and then recosting Martial Arts... primarily designed for Low Level, non-supers style games.

 

That I think I can handle.

I think those affects are pretty much already there if you consider the kinds of things for which you make various Characteristic rolls (and other effects, such as when you are stunned and how much you can lift). I also tend to use all kinds of Characteristic Rolls in my games, so their value stays pretty apparent. I came up with a structure quite a while ago. Not only were Figured Characteristics not (with the usual, "all start at the figured values as if the Primaries were at 10"), but I separated all the other things we usually record as traits:

Char     Start    Cost    NCM    Effects
----     -----    ----    ---    -------
Str       10       1      20     Lifting/Throwing; Grabs and some Entangles
Dex       10       1      20     DfC; Agil Skills
Con       10       1      20     Stunning; Men Att Based on Con
Body      10       2      20
Int       10       1      20     Memory; Int Skills
Ego       10       1      20     Psych Lims; Men Att (threshold)
Pre       10       1      20     Soc Skills
Com       10       1/2    20

PD         2       1       8
ED         2       1       8
Speed      2      10       4
Rec        4       2      10
End       20       1/2    50
Stun      20       1      50

Leap       2"      1       5"
HTH Dam   10       1      20     1 DC/5 points; Costs End
OCV        3       5       7
DCV        3       5       7
OECV       3       5       7
DECV       3       5       7
Per       10       1      20
Pre Dam   10       1      20     Pre Att: 1d6/5 points

The trick is in a few of the Str details, like when Str vs. HTH Dam should be used to break out of Grabs/Entangles (or to hold a Grab) or resist Disarms, and what to do with Str Mins. I figured it would probably be appropriate to have Str work for Grabs, either work for Entangles (the highest, or possibly depends on Entangle SFX), and Str work vs. Disarms. As for Str Mins, I'm not sure. Probably I'd restructure things a bit: the Str Min would be calculated based on Str, but all HTH Dam would add to the damage of HTH weapons (penalized as usual if the Str Min isn't met).

[Lucius]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Interesting, because Phil indicated that he feels (and I agree) that Martial Arts extra Damage Classes are actually ADVANTAGED Strength. (I tend to agree with that.)

 

I'm afraid I don't understand. Please elaborate.

 

 

Of course, I've NEVER used the extra Damage Class rule. When I design martial arts and martial artists, also, I usually don't go for maximizing damge; I just don't see that as being what martial arts is about. They're mostly for accessing abilities you can't easily get otherwise.

 

Like Throw. Like adding velocity damage without taking any yourself. Like having manuevers you can use in conjunction with a full move.

 

Now, a lot of manuevers use added STR only for some specific purpose - which sounds like LIMITED STR to me, I admit. But the idea behind increasing the cost of STR is that ALL the aspects of STR are undercosted at 1 pt per. I don't quite think it follows that these specific limited aspects of STR were underpriced.

 

While I can see some point in the idea that martial arts are underpriced (not sure I agree, just see the point) I think that's a seperate issue from the costing of STR.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary adds that we really can't see extra damage classes as ADVANTAGED STR.....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Interesting' date=' because Phil indicated that he feels (and I agree) that Martial Arts extra Damage Classes are actually ADVANTAGED Strength. (I tend to agree with that.)[/quote']

 

I think they do a few things basic STR does not. They increase the damage of a maneuver that does killing or NND damage. That's all I can think of, however.

 

The bonuses an extra DC provides for a Grab, Escape, Throw, Shove or Strike would also be granted by additional strength. Block and Dodge are unaffected by extra damage classes.

 

However, a martial damage class doesn't add to non-martial damage (can you get Martial Strike bonuses against an Entangle?), increase lifting capacity, add leaping inches or add figured characteristics.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

I'm undecided on TK ... not sure if needs adjusting or not.

 

here's my thoughts:

 

4pts STR gives +2 STR.

3pts TK gives you +2 STR.

 

Why did TK suddenly become cheaper? Sure you don't get the Figured Characteristics, but you do get Range and Limited Indirect...

 

hrmm.. I dunno. Nothing coherent comes to mind.

The 4 pts of STR gives you 2.2 points of figureds. That's over half the cost you're paying. Range is only a +1/2 advantage. It then comes down to how much "Limited Indirect" gives you. IMO, Indirect is overpriced to begin with, but that's a separate issue. I tend to keep a tight rein on the indirect aspects of TK. If you let players get huge advantages* from the indirect aspect, then perhaps TK's price should be increased as well.

 

*Like say: bypassing Ironman's armor and squeezing his head with "indirect" TK. Or other uses that turn out similar to the "mentalist sniper" effect.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

I think they do a few things basic STR does not. They increase the damage of a maneuver that does killing or NND damage. That's all I can think of, however.

 

The bonuses an extra DC provides for a Grab, Escape, Throw, Shove or Strike would also be granted by additional strength. Block and Dodge are unaffected by extra damage classes.

 

However, a martial damage class doesn't add to non-martial damage (can you get Martial Strike bonuses against an Entangle?), increase lifting capacity, add leaping inches or add figured characteristics.

That's a good point. That's why I said I wasn't quite sure about it. Let's see now:

 

An extra DC costs:

10 from STR - which lets you grab, throw, etc. and gives figured chars, and lifting capacity

5 from HA - which gives you HTH damage only, that adds to your STR

? from MA extra DC's - extra DC's with whatever MA maneuvers you have, including Grabs, throws, KAs, etc., adds to STR + maneuver bonus + HA or HKA weapon DCs.

 

It seems to me that the MA DC's give you more than HA DC's, and therefore should cost more. That's why I proposed 6 points.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

It then comes down to how much "Limited Indirect" gives you. IMO' date=' Indirect is overpriced to begin with, but that's a separate issue. I tend to keep a tight rein on the indirect aspects of TK. If you let players get huge advantages* from the indirect aspect, then perhaps TK's price should be increased as well.[/quote']

 

I've never seen anything indicating that Indirect for TK is any more limited than Indirect for any other power for which the +3/4 advantage is paid. That doesn't let you bypass personal defenses, of course, but if Iron Man built his armor as a vehicle, he may be in for a surprise!

[OddHat]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Get rid of figured characteristics and you don't need to re-cost anything except CON (which can drop to 1 point per point). Then start characters with X Points more to buy up their figureds.

 

Yes, that's not what the thread's about. Just sayin.

[gojira]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

I hope figured characteristics never go away. Every system needs it's kinks and twists to make it interesting. Sure, you could remove them and just buy up everything, but if you really regularize everything, you'd have.... FUZION!

 

*runs off screaming*

[Rkane_1]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Strength = 2pts per +1

TK = 3 pts per +1

HA = 5pts per +1DC

MA DC's= 8 pts per +DC (Becasue they add to the NND's, & what not too)

 

Sound reasonable?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

I was in a museum in Scotland a few years ago, and my wife and I were looking at a Claymore (2 handed or hand + 1/2, depends on who you ask). The museum guide noted that this was virtually never used as an HTH weapon. You needed to be mounted to make effective use of it. You held the reins and guided the horse with one hand and held the sword at the pommel with the other. You didn't swing it, just arced it down and used the momentum of the horse to provide the real "swing"

 

If you had to use it on foot, it was unweildy, so unless you were extremely strong and large, like William Wallace ("Braveheart") using it on foot wasn't a viable option. With this bit of history in mind, a high STR minimum may seem more reasonable, remembering that being below that minimum doesn't mean you can't use the weapon, only that penalties apply to its use.

Hint:

Docents aren't always as right as they think.

The whole set of greatsword myths have been pretty well debunked by the growing redactive/experiential archeology martial arts researcher crowd (which is getting pretty huge these days).

 

I have fought with a variety of claymores and other greatswords on foot. They are quite agile and dangerous weilded properly.

 

The str mins are a bit silly, but I tend to go with a "Weapons Training" Str only for Str Minstalent in various package deals... kind of like a proficincy... If you aren't trained and conditioned to weild weapons they're harder to use.

[Lucius]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Hint:

Docents aren't always as right as they think.

The whole set of greatsword myths have been pretty well debunked by the growing redactive/experiential archeology martial arts researcher crowd (which is getting pretty huge these days).

 

Oh, you mean the SCA?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that Lucius couldn't resist that.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

If STR was 2 points...

 

I would leave everything else as is (except Aid and Drain):

TK is cheaper, but in our campaign we use STR plus Stretching with Does Not Cross... why? Because STR is so much cheaper.

 

HA, it's okay as long as there are limits placed on how many dice. Usually our group goes with HKA anyway.

 

Leave the NCM for STR at 20. Yes, having a natural 22 STR costs 8 points over having a natural 20 STR. (In heroic campaigns)

 

Now, things like Growth with 0 END, Persistant, Always On become worthwhile to get that extra die of damage and increased STR.

 

In Heroic, things that Heal, Aid or Drain STR still count STR as 1 for 1. This makes Boosting or Draining STR still worth while. However, such effects should be given a way to reverse themselves if they last for more a few minutes. Boosting above 20, however, is halved.

 

Of course, our group is much more likely to buy STR with lots of limitations. (Only to increase carrying/lifting capacity is a standard one for us.)

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Oh, you mean the SCA?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that Lucius couldn't resist that.

 

 

Yeah, the SCA is part of it, but they aren't really who I was thinking of.

Most of the serious push to rediscover how the rennaissance era martial arts came from European Re-enactors who ususally also work at the various armory meuseums like the Tower of London and the Gratz armory collection. DOJ has even reflected this shift in knowledge by including some of them in UMA. I have an old friend (and former fight partner)who runs a school that participates in symposiums worldwide.

He can now hand me my butt on a platter.

 

It is to the average SCA fighter as Advanced Squad Leader is to, say, Risk.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

There have been lots of threads in the past on the merits of whether STR should cost 2 points instead of 1 for 1.

 

Are you talking for heroic games only or across the board? (I haven't read the whole thread yet; wanted to respond to this one without getting caught up in any discussion that comes later.)

 

1) Hand Attacks... should become 5 points, without any limitation... just the HtH version of EB. Easy.

 

2) Martial Arts: All these maneuvers are essentially "Limited STR" of a sort. Has anyone ever calculated how much the maneuvers would cost at 2 for 1 STR? Is there some formula out there that can be applied?

 

Agree on Hand Attacks. I wouldn't worry too much about Martial Arts.

 

3) Anything else?

 

I can't think of anything.

 

If STR is 2 for 1... does this remove any real need for Normal Characteristic Maxima increased costs? My intuitive sense tells me that NCM costs were created to keep every Fantasy Hero character from running around with a 25 plus STR because it would be so cheap an effective. The other stats figured into NCM were an after thought for the most part. With STR properly costed at 2 for 1, it ain't so cheap to ramp up your built in damage... making NCM superfluous (sp?) at best.

 

Thanks for any feedback.

 

I did read a bit further down, and I'd tend to agree with the poster who said 20 should be a beginning limit and you can go further with experience. I'd be willing to go maybe as high as 25 at the beginning with appropriate concept and perhaps some related Disadvantages (Rep: Freakishly Strong, Hunted: Young Turks Who Want To Knock You Off, DF: Freakish Musculature, Unearthly Beauty, etc.), and perhaps as long as that's the only stat over 20. In other words, a heroic level character with a 25 STR is going to be known across the land for his high STR; I believe first edition Fantasy Hero advised that "songs are sung and tales are told of the warrior with STR 25 or the maiden with COM 24."

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

I was in a museum in Scotland a few years ago' date=' and my wife and I were looking at a Claymore (2 handed or hand + 1/2, depends on who you ask). The museum guide noted that this was virtually never used as an HTH weapon. You needed to be mounted to make effective use of it. You held the reins and guided the horse with one hand and held the sword at the pommel with the other. You didn't swing it, just arced it down and used the momentum of the horse to provide the real "swing"[/quote']

 

I wish I could find the site, but several months ago I ran across a page that talked about this. Written by a master armorer and swordsman, aimed primarily at fantasy novelists, it basically busted the myth that old swords were heavy, usually promulgated by people who had never even as much as seen in person a real sword of the period. This guy was apparently in a position (through contacts in museums and universities) to have access to swords made 200+ years ago, to pick them up and wield them.

 

Apparently modern (i.e. recently made) swords aren't lighter because of modern manufacturing techniques, but because people just overestimate the weights of the old ones. And apparently most people who write books about swords are armchair historians and paper experts, the sort of geek who thinks he's an expert on everything.

 

Edit: I think this is the page I was looking at, and this and this at the same site also talk about it.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Hint:

Docents aren't always as right as they think.

The whole set of greatsword myths have been pretty well debunked by the growing redactive/experiential archeology martial arts researcher crowd (which is getting pretty huge these days).

 

I have fought with a variety of claymores and other greatswords on foot. They are quite agile and dangerous weilded properly.

 

The str mins are a bit silly, but I tend to go with a "Weapons Training" Str only for Str Minstalent in various package deals... kind of like a proficincy... If you aren't trained and conditioned to weild weapons they're harder to use.

 

Late to the party again. Now I wish I'd read the whole thread before posting. Oh well..

[Markdoc]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Well once you change the STR cost' date=' out goes the 5 pt/die balance, so EB should likely cost around 7 per dice, and KA (ranged or HtH) should be the same per DC. TK would have to be readjusted as well.[/quote']

 

No, the balance is *already* shot. STR at 2 points per gives you the following price breakdown:

 

STR - 1d6 attack (5 points worth) plus extra stats, plus extra lift, plus extra jumping (for another 5 points, 10 in total).

 

HA (that's STR with a -1 limit, "for attacks only")

 

STR, no figured CHA falls in between those two: you don't get figured CHA but you still get extra lift and jumping for 7 points in total.

 

EB is costed as STR for "attacks only", with the extra advantage "usable at range" and the limitation "own STR does not add" which balance out so 5 points per d6. That's essentially the same way as RKA and HKA work now.

 

TK is actually more useful than EB, so the current price works fine - you can hit *or* grab with it and you can lift things, but you don't get figured CHA or jumping, so it's more like EB with continous or a custom adder.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

On the topic of costs, my 2% of a dollar:

 

HA - 5 points, obviously.

 

TK and EB stay the same, as indicated above.

 

Growth/Density increase stay the same - there's no figured and the END costs on the power, plus the END cost on the STR, plus the limitation on being really big or really heavy, keep it from being abusive.

 

Which is one point not mentioned above - the END cost on STR becomes the same as every other Hero power - 1 point of END per 10 points of STR or 1 per d6.

 

Martial arts: A DC is merely limited STR, like an HA. It's less limited than a HA in that it can add to a range of attacks, but it's less useful than STR, no figured CHA, which also adds to most attacks, so I'd call that a -3/4 and round it off to 6 points per DC. Martial attacks that give extra damage should probably start with an extra +1 on the cost: attacks that give more d6 to some extent are already compensated for in the building maneuvers rules, so adding a higher cost for more d6 of damage seems unbalanced. Those that give extra STR (for escapes, binds, etc) already have the "only for attack" limitation like HA, so I'd leave their cost alone.

 

I'd leave NCM alone: it's already an optional rule and my experience in heroic games where it is enforced, is that it doesn't stop people buying STR over 20. In my current FH game we already have one character with a STR 23 and we started players on 100 points! In fact, I don't think I've ever run a FH game where we didn't get at least one character over 20 STR with both NCM and STR at 2 points per.

 

Last of all, I've refigured STR mins on weapons for my game (see http://www.rpglibrary.org/settings/gothick_empires/ under "equipment"), but in general I don't have a big problem with them. Being under the STR min does not mean you can't use a weapon: it merely means you can't use it - to start with - as efficiently as a big muscular guy. A little training (ie: either limited STR or CSLs) can redress the OCV and damage penalties, just like in real life. Hint: look at armour or clothes from medieval warriors - their upper body proportions are big for a reason!

 

cheers, Mark

[RDU Neil]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

On the topic of costs, my 2% of a dollar:

 

HA - 5 points, obviously.

 

TK and EB stay the same, as indicated above.

 

Growth/Density increase stay the same - there's no figured and the END costs on the power, plus the END cost on the STR, plus the limitation on being really big or really heavy, keep it from being abusive.

 

Which is one point not mentioned above - the END cost on STR becomes the same as every other Hero power - 1 point of END per 10 points of STR or 1 per d6.

 

Martial arts: A DC is merely limited STR, like an HA. It's less limited than a HA in that it can add to a range of attacks, but it's less useful than STR, no figured CHA, which also adds to most attacks, so I'd call that a -3/4 and round it off to 6 points per DC. Martial attacks that give extra damage should probably start with an extra +1 on the cost: attacks that give more d6 to some extent are already compensated for in the building maneuvers rules, so adding a higher cost for more d6 of damage seems unbalanced. Those that give extra STR (for escapes, binds, etc) already have the "only for attack" limitation like HA, so I'd leave their cost alone.

 

I'd leave NCM alone: it's already an optional rule and my experience in heroic games where it is enforced, is that it doesn't stop people buying STR over 20. In my current FH game we already have one character with a STR 23 and we started players on 100 points! In fact, I don't think I've ever run a FH game where we didn't get at least one character over 20 STR with both NCM and STR at 2 points per.

 

Last of all, I've refigured STR mins on weapons for my game (see http://www.rpglibrary.org/settings/gothick_empires/ under "equipment"), but in general I don't have a big problem with them. Being under the STR min does not mean you can't use a weapon: it merely means you can't use it - to start with - as efficiently as a big muscular guy. A little training (ie: either limited STR or CSLs) can redress the OCV and damage penalties, just like in real life. Hint: look at armour or clothes from medieval warriors - their upper body proportions are big for a reason!

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

Thank you. This is exactly the kind of breakdown I was looking for. Basically, trying to see if there were any glaring costing changes that would suddenly be unbalanced in a 2 for 1 Str game. As I already lower the DC added by Martial Arts in my campaign (the superhero style +2 DC or +4 DC ramp martial arts into unrealistic levels of damage way to quickly at lower levels) I'm comfortable leaving the costs as they are... meaning that the only real adjustment I'd have to make would be to change STR costs... and increase extra DC for martial arts (already limited to one, max) by 2 points.

 

That works for me. Minimal change to reinforce genre... and a step in the right direction for all my Hero based games.

 

Thanks to everyone. (You may now continue your SCA tangent at your leisure.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

No, the balance is *already* shot. STR at 2 points per gives you the following price breakdown:

 

STR - 1d6 attack (5 points worth)

 

I find it hard to credit the assertion that 1d6 STR damage = 1d6 EB damage. The EB is ranged (+1/2 advantage) and can be Spread to enhance OCV or strike more targets, at the cost of losing some damage capacity, essentially making an EB a Multipower of three slots, added damage, added OCV and OCV limited to offsetting penalties for a Rapid Attack. If I were to accept the premise that 1d6 HTH damage = 1d6 EB, I would have to conclude that both the Ranged advantage and the ability to spread an attack should be repriced at -0.

 

plus extra stats' date=' plus extra lift, plus extra jumping (for another 5 points, 10 in total).[/quote']

 

The value of these is somewhat quantifiable - 10 STR provides +2 PD, +2 REC and +5 STUN, value 11 points (13 if we tack on +2" leap). However, if we're going to reprice STR to incorporate the true cost of those figured characteristics, CON also needs to be repriced - every 10 CON provides provides +2 ED, +2 REC, +20 END and +5 STUN, value 21 points. As such, a repricing of STR probably also mandates adjusting the price of CON, if you believe the need to reprice STR arises in part from the figured stats it provides. Maybe CON needs to be 2.5 points per, so every 10 points of CON gathers 21 figured, +2 CON rolls and +10 defense against being STUNNED. If you think the last two have more value, CON at 3 points per would become the price, but that seems high to me.

 

HA (that's STR with a -1 limit' date=' "for attacks only")[/quote']

 

But an EB would be more versatile, so assigning them the same cost seems like overkill to me.

 

STR' date=' no figured CHA falls in between those two: you don't get figured CHA but you still get extra lift and jumping for 7 points in total.[/quote']

 

This implies you price Lift and Leap the same, since 5 points is for STR damage based on your comments above, 1 for leap leaves 1 for lift. However, I am giving up 5.5 points of Figured, so shouldn't this come in at about 4.5 for the remainder of STR? Rounded up to 5, No Figured would be a -1 limitation.

 

That would mean STR breaks down more or less as follows, per 5 STR for 10 points:

 

- 5.5 for Figured (save 5 points if you remove it)

- 1 point for leap (save 1 point if you remove it by selling it back)

- 1 point for Lift (can't sell back independently)

- 3.33 for HTH damage (based on Hand Attack present cost; STR No Damage becomes a -1/2 limitation)

 

Total cost 10.83 points. As a package, buy it for 10.

 

EB is costed as STR for "attacks only"' date=' with the extra advantage "usable at range" and the limitation "own STR does not add" which balance out so 5 points per d6. That's essentially the same way as RKA and HKA work now.[/quote']

 

Except the present "STR only for damage" of Hand Attack doesn't add to HKA. And this model again implies the ability to spread an attack carries no cost. If we add an advantage for the ability to spread, the limitation for "own STR does not add" must be higher to compensate.

 

TK is actually more useful than EB' date=' so the current price works fine - you can hit *or* grab with it and you can lift things, but you don't get figured CHA or jumping, so it's more like EB with continous or a custom adder.[/quote']

 

TK is STR with Range (+1/2), Fully Indirect (+3/4), No Figured (current pricing of -1/2) = 3 points for 2 STR TK. Under this revised model, it should be 2 STR with Range (+1/2), Fully Indirect (+3/4 - assuming we don't make it direct by default and you can buy Indirect if you want that), No Figured (above pricing of -1) = 2.25 per STR, or 9 points for 4 STR TK. If we remove Indirect as a default, we get back to 3 points for 2 STR TK. That seems the easiest approach.

[Markdoc]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

I find it hard to credit the assertion that 1d6 STR damage = 1d6 EB damage. The EB is ranged (+1/2 advantage) and can be Spread to enhance OCV or strike more targets' date=' at the cost of losing some damage capacity, essentially making an EB a Multipower of three slots, added damage, added OCV and OCV limited to offsetting penalties for a Rapid Attack. If I were to accept the premise that 1d6 HTH damage = 1d6 EB, I would have to conclude that both the Ranged advantage and the ability to spread an attack should be repriced at -0.[/quote']

 

Only if you assumed that you couldn't spread HTH damage by picking up (say) a bus and whacking someone with it. So spreading an attack is essentially a power stunt that everyone gets for free. With EB you don't need a (free) environmental focus, but you pay for that by losing damage. With STR you may actually gain a little extra damage but you need a suitable object and may get AOE into the bargain. 1d6 of STR damage can't be used at range, but 1d6 of EB damage can't be used in movethroughs, to shake off grabs, do casual STR activities, etc, and you don't get the first 2d6 for free. They are not the same, but I have no problem seeing them as of equivalent value.

 

Here's a simple question: what would you rather have under the current system: 50 points of EB or 33 points of STR usable at range? The first gives you 10 d6 ranged attack. The second gives you 9d6 of more flexible ranged attack, plus 36 points of Figured CHA, plus other advantages. As you lift the cap on damage, the advantage slides slightly away from STR - but not by much. There's a *reason* STR at range is specifically forbidden - one of the few contructs so singled out.

 

The value of these is somewhat quantifiable - 10 STR provides +2 PD' date=' +2 REC and +5 STUN, value 11 points (13 if we tack on +2" leap). However, if we're going to reprice STR to incorporate the true cost of those figured characteristics, CON also needs to be repriced - every 10 CON provides provides +2 ED, +2 REC, +20 END and +5 STUN, value 21 points.[/quote']

 

Right - so 10 points of STR provides 2d6 of augmented HA, plus the 13 you mention for a total of 23 active points (19 real) plus some intangibles like lifting and grabbing power - all for 10 points.

 

10 points of CON provides you 21 points of figured, plus one important intangible, the ability to not be con-stunned - for 20 points. That's kind of a limited form of armour that doesn't actually stop damage, so depending on exactly how you price that limitation, it's between 4-7 points extra.

 

So I respectfully disagree: 10 points of STR gets you 19-23 points of measurable goodies plus intangibles, 20 points of CON gets you 21-28 and no intangibles. In other words, CON's about right and STR is too cheap. Both of them give you a little more than you pay for, but as long as that balance is not *too* lopsided, I'm OK with it. Most importantly I have never had a problem with "CON monsters" who buy their CON up really high regardless of concept. A big CON is usually only seen as a Brick Shtick. STR monsters, OTOH are quite common - "human" martial artists with a STR of 30+, elderly scientists with a STR of 20, etc.

 

 

That would mean STR breaks down more or less as follows, per 5 STR for 10 points:

 

- 5.5 for Figured (save 5 points if you remove it)

- 1 point for leap (save 1 point if you remove it by selling it back)

- 1 point for Lift (can't sell back independently)

- 3.33 for HTH damage (based on Hand Attack present cost; STR No Damage becomes a -1/2 limitation)

 

Total cost 10.83 points. As a package, buy it for 10.

 

Yep, basically you have summarised the argument for making STR 2 points per in a nutshell. I wouldn't make No figured CHA a -1 based on this reasoning, however - applying the same logic to CON would suggest it should be -2 or greater, since almost all of the measureable benefit of CON is in Figured CHA. If you make the assumption that you get a price break for buying CHA (and that's fair enough - it applies to INT, CON and DEX as well), then I can easily accept no figured CHA at -1/2.

 

 

Except the present "STR only for damage" of Hand Attack doesn't add to HKA. And this model again implies the ability to spread an attack carries no cost. If we add an advantage for the ability to spread' date=' the limitation for "own STR does not add" must be higher to compensate.[/quote']

 

Only if you ignore the many and varied uses of STR - as noted, spreading and bouncing are common to RKA and EB, adding STR is common to HA and HKA. Given that STR has many, many uses above and beyond simply adding damage, the breakdown seems about right. HA *is* slightly less useful than EB - but it adds to STR, which is very, very useful indeed.

 

More to the point, if there really was an imbalance it would show up in game play, with ranged characters being favoured - but in fact, in the current system, the combat monsters are almost always STR-based, and even at 2 points per point of STR, HTH combatants are still very competitive.

 

If you think it might be an issue, one thing you might want to do is allow HA to add to all HTH attacks made with STR, not simply strike (some GMs do this anyway). I wouldn't add it to HKA though, anymore than I'd add RKA to an EB. If you want that extra flexibility buy STR, no Figured instead.

 

cheers, Mark