Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

[RDU Neil]

There have been lots of threads in the past on the merits of whether STR should cost 2 points instead of 1 for 1.

 

This is not such a thread. Assume the decision is made (whether you like it or not) to change STR to 2 for 1 cost... what other costs would need to change to reflect this?

 

What I can think of right off the bat are...

 

1) Hand Attacks... should become 5 points, without any limitation... just the HtH version of EB. Easy.

 

2) Martial Arts: All these maneuvers are essentially "Limited STR" of a sort. Has anyone ever calculated how much the maneuvers would cost at 2 for 1 STR? Is there some formula out there that can be applied?

 

3) Anything else?

 

On another point... and this is a bit more of a "what's your opinion" question...

 

If STR is 2 for 1... does this remove any real need for Normal Characteristic Maxima increased costs? My intuitive sense tells me that NCM costs were created to keep every Fantasy Hero character from running around with a 25 plus STR because it would be so cheap an effective. The other stats figured into NCM were an after thought for the most part. With STR properly costed at 2 for 1, it ain't so cheap to ramp up your built in damage... making NCM superfluous (sp?) at best.

 

Thanks for any feedback.

[Lucius]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

There have been lots of threads in the past on the merits of whether STR should cost 2 points instead of 1 for 1.

 

This is not such a thread. Assume the decision is made (whether you like it or not) to change STR to 2 for 1 cost... what other costs would need to change to reflect this?.

 

You do realize that some people are going to come in anyway and argue the point? They just can't help themselves.

 

What I can think of right off the bat are...

 

1) Hand Attacks... should become 5 points, without any limitation... just the HtH version of EB. Easy.

 

Yeah, that's the easy one.

 

2) Martial Arts: All these maneuvers are essentially "Limited STR" of a sort. Has anyone ever calculated how much the maneuvers would cost at 2 for 1 STR? Is there some formula out there that can be applied?

.

 

Really? Martial Dodge is "Limited STR?"

I'll have to think about that.

 

3) Anything else?

 

 

The question of whether this should impace the cost of Telekinesis (or Psychokinesis or whatever it's called now) should at least be considered.

 

On another point... and this is a bit more of a "what's your opinion" question...

 

If STR is 2 for 1... does this remove any real need for Normal Characteristic Maxima increased costs? My intuitive sense tells me that NCM costs were created to keep every Fantasy Hero character from running around with a 25 plus STR because it would be so cheap an effective. The other stats figured into NCM were an after thought for the most part. With STR properly costed at 2 for 1, it ain't so cheap to ramp up your built in damage... making NCM superfluous (sp?) at best.

 

Thanks for any feedback.

 

Well, in my opinion the Normal Characteristic Maxima rule was misguided from the start.

 

But I'm not necessarily averse to the idea of having campaign guidelines, like the ones for maximum DEF and Damage Classes and Active Points, that are 1) set by the individual Game Operations Director for that specific game, and 2) adjudicated on a case-by-case basis if a player wants an exception.

 

You should probably assume that in the absence of any kind of "cap" some players MAY want to have a STR 25 (even at 2 pts per) DEX 23 (So useful) PRE 25 and in the case of some character concepts, INT or EGO up to 30. Maybe no one will, but don't count on it.

 

Decide if you're okay with that, and if not, what you want to do about it. Setting 20 as a limit to start with may be a good idea; then if they want to go beyond that with experience, so be it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Normal Palindromedary Maxima

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

 

3) Anything else?

 

 

Well once you change the STR cost, out goes the 5 pt/die balance, so EB should likely cost around 7 per dice, and KA (ranged or HtH) should be the same per DC. TK would have to be readjusted as well.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

I've long used 2-for-1 Strength in fantasy campaigns, and sometimes other heroic-level genres. While I do impose Normal Characteristic Maxima in most cases, I waive it for STR when I've increased the basic cost of that Characteristic. After all, many players love their 20+ STR brawny barbarians , and I find that doubling the cost of STR again makes players shy away from that concept.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

I agree - you'll need to adjust TK, I think it comes to 3 pt for 1 pt TK STR adjusted.

 

Since you've now made normal STR give a 10pts/DC I'd imagine you'll see weaker characters with HAs instead. It does make Bricks attacks comparitively more expensive than energy blasters. Just something to look out for.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Well once you change the STR cost' date=' out goes the 5 pt/die balance, so EB should likely cost around 7 per dice, and KA (ranged or HtH) should be the same per DC. TK would have to be readjusted as well.[/quote']

 

On that point I respectfully disagree. STR provides so many benefits that I don't think it would be that unreasonable to charge 10 Char. Pts./ die of damage, plus lifting/throwing, plus leaping, plus Figured Characteristics, and so on.

 

Not saying that I would want to do it that way; but IMHO it wouldn't be urgent to rebalance the cost structure of other attack Powers. But I would want to re-examine Telekinesis, though.

[gojira]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

*IF* I was playing in a campaing where STR cost is 2 per pip, there would already be a lot of other controls on the things you mention.

 

A 2 x STR cost is likely to be low power Fantasy or Pulp. +HtH attacks need an explaination. Brass knuckles, swords, staves, etc. One doesn't just have +HtH.

 

Maritial arts are likely to be limited as well. You need to have a character backstory for it, to begin with. Styles for brawling, fighter tricks, theives, etc. are likely to have been already defined. Actual martial arts are closely guarded secrets. You'd have to be a member of the martial art society whose style you wanted. There would be codes of conduct involved, special secret missions, lodge handshakes, funny hats, and moose calls. The whole she-bang.

 

Yes, I'd still use NCM. It fits that style of campaign. STR costs are 4x over 20. Bummer.

 

I think you get the idea....

[gojira]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Not saying that I would want to do it that way; but IMHO it wouldn't be urgent to rebalance the cost structure of other attack Powers. But I would want to re-examine Telekinesis' date=' though.[/quote']

 

To add: I probably wouldn't rebalance everything either, although there might be a couple of niggles I haven't thought of. Telekinesis would likely not be rebalanced, but there would be a lot of restrictions placed on it. Likely it'll require a Magic Skill roll, not to mention gestures, incantations, a pointy hat, and maybe a guy pulling the wires.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

To add: I probably wouldn't rebalance everything either' date=' although there might be a couple of niggles I haven't thought of. Telekinesis would likely not be rebalanced, but there would be a lot of restrictions placed on it. Likely it'll require a Magic Skill roll, not to mention gestures, incantations, a pointy hat, and maybe a guy pulling the wires.[/quote']

 

My first thought is that, since TK under Fifth Edition is for all practical purposes Fully Indirect (as you can tell from reading the rulebook description of what it can do), making it less so as a base Power would probably suffice.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

There have been lots of threads in the past on the merits of whether STR should cost 2 points instead of 1 for 1.

 

This is not such a thread. Assume the decision is made (whether you like it or not) to change STR to 2 for 1 cost... what other costs would need to change to reflect this?

 

Unfortunately, to some extent it is such a thread. If you believe STR should be 2 points per, then there may not be a need to adjust other costs - STR is simply being repriced to what it's worth in comparison with other abilities. If you believe STR is correctly priced at 1 point per, then the cost of virtually everything else needs to be doubled if we double the cost of STR.

 

I think the first thing to do is break down the value of STR. What % of that 2 points is paid for:

 

- increased damage

- increased leap

- Figured Char

- increased lift

- increased grab

 

What I can think of right off the bat are...

 

1) Hand Attacks... should become 5 points, without any limitation... just the HtH version of EB. Easy.

 

Unless you think that the portion of STR cost which is paid for added HTH damage is 30%. In that case, 3 points per die of Hand Attack is correct. If you think all things STR related should be doubled, HA should be 6 points instead of 3. This at least provides a range of costs, depending on your perspective on why the cost is increased and how much of the cost of STR relates to hand to hand DC's.

 

2) Martial Arts: All these maneuvers are essentially "Limited STR" of a sort. Has anyone ever calculated how much the maneuvers would cost at 2 for 1 STR? Is there some formula out there that can be applied?

 

Again, it depends on relative costing. If you believe the DC component of STR is properly priced, but the "STR as a bundle" cost is discounted excessively, maybe these stay the same. If you believe all STR-related costs should be doubled, then +1 DC in a maneuver should be 2 points, and +1 MA DC overall should be 8 points, preserving the proportions. It should exceed the cost of HA since it does more.

 

3) Anything else?

 

Again, depends on perspective. I'd start with recosting No figured so the discount is commensurate with the % of STR cost I believe is supported by figured characteristics. That will help with a lot of the other items, like Telekinesis, Superleap and other mechanics that are a component of, or are in some ways driven by, STR.

 

If STR is 2 for 1... does this remove any real need for Normal Characteristic Maxima increased costs? My intuitive sense tells me that NCM costs were created to keep every Fantasy Hero character from running around with a 25 plus STR because it would be so cheap an effective. The other stats figured into NCM were an after thought for the most part. With STR properly costed at 2 for 1' date=' it ain't so cheap to ramp up your built in damage... making NCM superfluous (sp?) at best.[/quote']

 

PRE (INT) is pretty cheap for a character with interaction skills (intellect skills). Why buy +1 level w/ PRE based skills for 5 points if you can buy +5 PRE for 5 points?

 

DEX is probably more efficient than combat skill levels. +2 Combat Skill Levels for 16 points allows me +2 to either OCV or DCV, or some enhanced damage. +9 DEX, no figured, for 18 points raises OCV and DCV by THREE each, enhances my DEX related skills, and moves me up in the initiative order.

 

For 6 points, I could buy +3 DEX, No Figured and get +1 OCV and DCV, plus 10 points back from those 2 combat levels. That would buy me a single 8 point level to put to OCV or DCV, so I can have +2 to either, and +1 to the other, losing the damage bonus.

 

For 12 points, I can buy +6 DEX, raise both CV's by 2 at the same time, and spend 5 points on another DC to my attack, so I can have pretty much all the benefits 2 Combat levels would give me a choice of, except they're all available simultaneously. Plus I get +1 to DEX rolls and move earlier.

 

EDITED FOR BAD DEX MATH - Thanks, Frenchman!

[Frenchman]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

I think the only powers you'd need to recost are Growth, Density Increase, and, of course, TK. HA, EB, and KA are just fine - 1 DC for 5 points is a base premise for the cost of powers, which is why STR should cost more, as it gives you more than just that - but thats for another thread.

I wouldn't remove the -1/2 limitation on HA attack, but rather I'd add it to EB for the reason that they are less effective than killing attacks - but again, thats for another thread.

The cost of TK would have to be doubled to 3/1 rather than 3/2, but I'd leave the adders (fine manipulation, affects porous, and any others I've forgotten) alone.

Growth and DI are a bit trickier - I don't like those powers anyways, but for arguments sake, I'll rework their costs:

DI - the cost of buying +5 STR (for 10 Base Points), +1PD/ED, & +1 KBR all with the limitations Non-Persistant (-1/4), Costs END (-1/2), and Side Effects (increased Mass, -1/2) comes out to just under 7 points per 5 STR of DI, if HD did the math right. I'd increase it to 10 anyways, because that's a nice, round number.

Growth - Built similarly, Growth comes to about 10 points per level, so I'd leave both Growth and DI at 10 points per level.

[Frenchman]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

DEX is arguably more efficient than combat skill levels. +2 Combat Skill Levels for 16 points allows me +2 to either OCV or DCV' date=' or some enhanced damage. +9 DEX, no figured, for 18 points raises OCV and DCV by one each, enhances my DEX related skills, and moves me up in the initiative order.[/quote']

And you're only 1 point away from getting one more point of Speed.

I personally believe that all of the Characteristics are undercosted, with the possible exception of COM and the figured ones.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

And you're only 1 point away from getting one more point of Speed.

 

No, I bought it "no figured" so it would cost 18 instead of 27 and avoid that breakpoint issue.

[Frenchman]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

No' date=' I bought it "no figured" so it would cost 18 instead of 27 and avoid that breakpoint issue.[/quote'] Oops, silly me and not checking the math - I thought that seemed cheap

On the other hand - you raise CVs by 3, not 1, and your skill rolls go up by +2.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Well once you change the STR cost' date=' out goes the 5 pt/die balance[/quote']This would only be true if damage dice was all STR gave you. Just because +10 STR would cost 20 points and only give you +2d6 of damage, doesn't mean that the damage dice each cost 10 points. You could argue (and in fact, I *would* argue) that the damage dice each cost 5 points, and the other stuff you get from +10 STR is what cost the other 10 points.

 

So with that in mind, I don't think I'd change the cost of anything else besides Hand-to-Hand Attack and TK. If you think of STR as costing 10 points for +5 STR, and that points breaks down into 5 points for a damage die, and 5 points for "other stuff," then buying Hand-to-Hand Attack is now essentially just buying the damage dice without buying the other stuff. It only has to be changed to the extent of removing its mandatory Limitation (which now isn't limiting).

 

TK would presumably change to 3 points per +1 STR (as if you bought +1 STR with the Ranged Advantage). True, it doesn't add to figureds. But it gets to use other STR-like functions besides just damage. If you wanted to get really detailed, you might cost it at 5 points per +2 STR, so it was more expensive than the current TK, but not quite as expensive as full STR bought with Ranged.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Oops, silly me and not checking the math - I thought that seemed cheap

On the other hand - you raise CVs by 3, not 1, and your skill rolls go up by +2.

 

ACK!

 

I'll just go edit that post!

 

Thanks

[RDU Neil]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

This would only be true if damage dice was all STR gave you. Just because +10 STR would cost 20 points and only give you +2d6 of damage, doesn't mean that the damage dice each cost 10 points. You could argue (and in fact, I *would* argue) that the damage dice each cost 5 points, and the other stuff you get from +10 STR is what cost the other 10 points.

 

So with that in mind, I don't think I'd change the cost of anything else besides Hand-to-Hand Attack and TK. If you think of STR as costing 10 points for +5 STR, and that points breaks down into 5 points for a damage die, and 5 points for "other stuff," then buying Hand-to-Hand Attack is now essentially just buying the damage dice without buying the other stuff. It only has to be changed to the extent of removing its mandatory Limitation (which now isn't limiting).

 

TK would presumably change to 3 points per +1 STR (as if you bought +1 STR with the Ranged Advantage). True, it doesn't add to figureds. But it gets to use other STR-like functions besides just damage. If you wanted to get really detailed, you might cost it at 5 points per +2 STR, so it was more expensive than the current TK, but not quite as expensive as full STR bought with Ranged.

 

 

The above is almost exactly my thought process. STR at 10 points is 5 for damage... 5 for everything else.

 

This, to me, still means that Martial Arts are too cheap... because they are essentially 5 points per die, the limited cost for damage only. after that layer effects and OCV/DCV mods for increased cost. If 2 for 1 STR... then you start at 5 points per Damage Class and get no break for "damage only" and then have to add on cost (OCV/DCV mods and effects like "target falls"). All MA maneuvers (except Dodge... Lucius... sheesh) would be more expensive.

 

The cost of TK, Growth & Densit Increase should be recalculated as well... thanks for all who mentioned those. Since this is for my Secret Worlds campaign (see the Dark Champs forum for my adventure posting if interested) none of those powers are likely to be used... so I hadn't considered it.

 

Yes... this is for a "heroic" level game... not traditional supers... so much of the downstream cost issues are moot for me.

 

Appreciate all your input. Any ideas on what STR based Martial Maneuvers would cost with this change, I'd love to see that. I'm still up in the air on whether to lose NCM costs or not... I'll probably try to play out each one and see what happens.

 

I'll rep everyone I can on this.

[Frenchman]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

T

Appreciate all your input. Any ideas on what STR based Martial Maneuvers would cost with this change, I'd love to see that. I'm still up in the air on whether to lose NCM costs or not... I'll probably try to play out each one and see what happens.

Like you said, STR is 5 points for damage and 5 points for everthing else. So while you might consider raising the price of Martial Damage Classes to 6-8 or so, I don't think the maneuvers or their costs should be affected. After all, +10 STR only to disarm can, obviously, only be used to disarm an opponent, not for anything else.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

It's not quite a cost, but if you up the cost of Str, I think the Str Mins (and thus maybe DCs) of the prebuilt weapons should really be changed. Some of them are a little ridiculous already.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Ah! A subject near and dear to my heart!

 

I actually have changed the cost of STR to 2 for ALL the games I run. Yes, including superheroes. And bricks still work just fine, believe it or not.

 

what other costs would need to change to reflect this?

1) Hand Attacks... should become 5 points, without any limitation... just the HtH version of EB. Easy.

Yes, quite obvious. The only reason they have the limitation in the first place is so they can cost less than STR. With the 2 for 1 STR change, the costs of almost everything becomes much more consistant:

 

5/DC - base EB cost, ranged basic attack

5/DC - HA, basic attack, no Range, but you get to add your base STR

5/DC - HKA, no range, add your STR

5/DC - RKA, ranged, no STR

10/DC - STR, no range, but you can manipulate objects, grab, squeeze, throw, etc., and you get a lot of figured characteristics, leaping, etc., and you start off with 10 for free

7.5/DC - TK, you can make basic attacks, and you can manipulate objects at range (including grab, squeeze, etc.), but you don't get and figured characteristics

 

2) Martial Arts: All these maneuvers are essentially "Limited STR" of a sort. Has anyone ever calculated how much the maneuvers would cost at 2 for 1 STR? Is there some formula out there that can be applied?

I haven't fully figured this one out yet. The basic maneuver costs are the same, but extra DCs are increased to 6 points - they need to be more expensive than HA, because you can do more stuff with them: they can be added to Martial Grab, Martial Escape, Martial Disarm, etc. You could make the case that they should be even higher in cost. 7? 8? 7.5? I strongly doubt they should be any higher than 8 per.

 

3) Anything else?

Nope. There has been some discussion of TK, but I think it's correctly priced as-is. At least half the value of STR is from the figureds, which TK doesn't give you.

 

Some have also mentioned Growth and Density Increase, but I think these are also fine as-is, since again, the STR provided doesn't increase the figured characteristics.

 

Edit: Maybe the STR mins of weapons need altering, but that is probably independant of the cost of STR, IMO.

 

If STR is 2 for 1... does this remove any real need for Normal Characteristic Maxima increased costs?

Nope. NCM is still useful and still appropriate for some genres and games. Players would be happy to have 30 DEX in a fantasy campaign as well. Or 30 EGO (+ Mental Powers), etc.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

I'm undecided on TK ... not sure if needs adjusting or not.

 

here's my thoughts:

 

4pts STR gives +2 STR.

3pts TK gives you +2 STR.

 

Why did TK suddenly become cheaper? Sure you don't get the Figured Characteristics, but you do get Range and Limited Indirect...

 

hrmm.. I dunno. Nothing coherent comes to mind.

[Lucius]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Instead of thinking of Martial Arts as "limited STR" try thinking of them as "Limited Hand Attack."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary observes that we're just throwing out a suggestion.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Phil's assessment sounds about right to me.

[Frenchman]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

It's not quite a cost' date=' but if you up the cost of Str, I think the Str Mins (and thus maybe DCs) of the prebuilt weapons should really be changed. Some of them are a little ridiculous already.[/quote']

Hmm... you're right. Then again, they should be redone anyways. Requiring someone to have 17 STR to wield a two-handed sword - a fairly common weapon in the real world - is ridiculous. There's no way that every other Scotsman had 17+ STR.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Adjusting Costs When STR is 2 points

 

Hmm... you're right. Then again' date=' they should be redone anyways. Requiring someone to have 17 STR to wield a two-handed sword - a fairly common weapon in the real world - is ridiculous. There's no way that every other Scotsman had 17+ STR.[/quote']

Yeah, I know. Well, it was a good opportunity to mention it anyway.