Archery Ballistics

[RDU Neil]

There is a ton of information on bullet balistics, penetration, balistic gel tests for various rounds/loads, etc.

 

Is there anything on arrows... specifically on the unique damage to a human body done by an arrow? I know a four inch penetration through armor was usually considered a "kill" and not just a wound... but I'm thinking that was due more to poor medical aid rather than "insta-kill."

 

What I'm interested in is the kind of damage an arrow (think broadhead hunting tip or the long, pointed pile arrow as two main types of damage). How does penetration and damage compare to say, a 9mm round? What is the damage done trying to remove the arrow (sans silk shirt mongol style). What would be an appropriate damage/mod for a character trying to act with a sharp stick imbedded in them?

 

Basically, I'm trying to figure out some unique rules for arrow damage that would make them "feel" different than bullets. Don't worry about cost or build... just effect...

 

Like "Take 1d6 NND K when trying to remove the arrow" or "take 1 pip NND K if any action is taken while arrow is still imbedded, depending on hit location" etc.

 

Also, I'm assuming most soft body armor (no plate) will be like butter to a high velocity broadhead or pile arrow.

 

Any experts out there?

 

Thanks in advance

[Talon]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

Not an expert, but I recall from past discussions that arrows do far more damage than their momentum / kinetic energy would indicate (especially when comparing to the energy in bullets).

 

I used to have a link to a study which showed that destroyed tissue was the key factor in wound severity -- bullets would destroy some tissue and "compress" a lot more (which would recover fairly quickly), while an arrow would not compress anything but would slice through quite a bit. Alas, the link went dead a long time ago.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

Not an expert, but I recall from past discussions that arrows do far more damage than their momentum / kinetic energy would indicate (especially when comparing to the energy in bullets).

 

I used to have a link to a study which showed that destroyed tissue was the key factor in wound severity -- bullets would destroy some tissue and "compress" a lot more (which would recover fairly quickly), while an arrow would not compress anything but would slice through quite a bit. Alas, the link went dead a long time ago.

 

This makes sense, as it is likely the arrow will transfer nearly every last bit of it's energy to the target, has a twisting/cutting head, and more mass in an arrow than most bullets.

 

While I'm comfortable with an arrow doing more damage than a pistol round (in most cases) I wonder about rifle rounds. The considerably higher velocity of a rifle round seems to me to greatly outgun even a heavy arrow fired from a powerful compound bow. Still, that is a guess, not based on any facts.

 

It is those facts I'm looking for.

 

Hmmm... maybe hunting has some resources. Deer get shot with bows and AK-47s all the time. How do those wounds and damage stack up, I wonder?

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

No claims to expert status here either. There have got to be some good bowhunting forums out there somewhere, and there must be some discussion of arrow damage. (You don’t have to tell them you’re doing gamer research!)

 

How does penetration and damage compare to say, a 9mm round?

...

Also, I'm assuming most soft body armor (no plate) will be like butter to a high velocity broadhead or pile arrow.

As I understand it, arrow penetration (through armor) is significantly less than bullet penetration. A "high velocity" arrow is not comparable to a high velocity bullet; the KE involved is like an order of magnitude less IIRC. And from talking to people that have actually tried it, my understanding is that a decent Kevlar vest will stop any arrow you can shoot at it.

 

Comparing damage is a little like comparing apples to oranges, because arrows and bullets do damage so differently. Bullets punch a hole through you, shatter any bone they might hit, and generally continue on out the opposite side; the main immediate damage they do is the shock from all the tissue compression. Arrows cause far less compression, and generally won’t penetrate as far; they can break bones, but don’t have the KE to propel bone fragments enough to cause additional damage. OTOH, a broadhead is significantly wider than a bullet and the rotation when it hits the target will do even more damage (bullets rotate too, of course, but they don’t have flanges). So it seems to me that while an arrow wound may be shallower than a bullet wound, the arrow wound could be messier.

 

So in game terms, I would be inclined to leave the damage levels about where 5ER has them, but give them Reduced Penetration (vs modern armor). Possibly a lower STUN Modifier, to reflect less shock from compression? Also, the shallower, messier wound might bleed more?

 

What is the damage done trying to remove the arrow (sans silk shirt mongol style). What would be an appropriate damage/mod for a character trying to act with a sharp stick imbedded in them?

I think these type of things are the key to making arrows “feel†different than bullets – the fact that you now have 18-24†of wood (or carbon or whatever) embedded in your chest. Off the top of my head, I would allow anyone removing an arrow to attempt a Medic Roll. If they make it, no additional damage; if they fail it they inflict an additional pip of BODY, NND. (Realistically, it might be more than that, but for game purposes 1 point is probably sufficient.)

 

As to penalties/damage from moving with an arrow stuck in you… I like your idea, but I’m not sure how best to implement it. Maybe require an EGO roll to take any action that involves moving that body part? Additional damage sounds realistic, but I might be inclined to make it NND STUN to reflect the pain factor, rather than it doing additional BODY damage. I’m making this up as I go here.

 

Oh, one other thing I have used in the past in modern games is that getting hit with an arrow gives an automatic +1d6 PRE Attack bonus just for the weirdness factor: “I’ve been shot by a freakin’ arrow? What’s up with that!?â€

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

Simul-posting!

This makes sense' date=' as it is likely the arrow will transfer nearly every last bit of it's energy to the target, has a twisting/cutting head, and more mass in an arrow than most bullets.[/quote']

I suspect you're wrong here. Mass isn't nearly as important as velocity and bullets are an order of magnitude faster than arrows. But then I don't have a lot of data to back my position either.

 

While I'm comfortable with an arrow doing more damage than a pistol round (in most cases) I wonder about rifle rounds. The considerably higher velocity of a rifle round seems to me to greatly outgun even a heavy arrow fired from a powerful compound bow.

Rifle bullets are an order of magnitude above pistol bullets. No comparison there.

 

Still, that is a guess, not based on any facts.

 

It is those facts I'm looking for.

Yeah, I'd love to see some actual data myself. I could be wrong, of course. (Wouldn't be the first time.)

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

Aha! Found a good article on arrow damage:

 

http://www.buckmasters.com/buckmasters_links/Classic_Buckmasters/articles/SharpFactor.html

 

First, one must realize that game animals shot with arrows die from blood loss or hemorrhaging. Arrows, unlike bullets, have relatively little foot pounds of impact on big game animals.

 

My 80-pound compound bow delivers a 660-grain hunting arrow, leaving the string at 245 fps, with about 88 foot pounds of energy. Compare that with a .270 Winchester, 130-grain bullet leaving the muzzle at 3,100 fps and developing well over 2,500 foot pounds of energy. When you compare 88 foot pounds to 2,500-plus foot pounds, it’s easy to see why the impact of a hunting arrow means virtually nothing in terms of lethal impact on big game. A firearm relies on tissue damage and hydrostatic shock created by bullet impact to dispatch an animal. There just isn’t enough “oomph†in an arrow to do that.

 

In bowhunting, it’s all about the broadhead. It must slice cleanly with little or no bruising or tearing of the tissue. In very simplified terms, when a razor-sharp blade slices living tissue (muscle and/or organs) without bruising or tearing the tissue it has sliced, the brain fails to initiate the process which causes blood coagulation, resulting in extreme hemorrhaging.

 

The faster the hemorrhaging, the faster the oxygen supply (which is carried in the blood) is deprived from the brain, rendering the animal unconscious. Most animals taken with bow and arrow fall to the ground unconscious before death actually occurs. So, for bowhunters, the object is to create massive hemorrhaging with a razor-sharp broadhead. The sharper the broadhead, the quicker the animal will be dispatched.

 

[And here I thought I was going to get some work work done today - silly ol' me.]

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

One more, then I have to get back to working on stuff they pay me to work on...

 

http://www.neurosurgery.org/sections/tr/guidelines/introductionandmethodology.pdf

 

Lower velocity sharp projectiles, such as arrows (120–250 ft/s [36–76 m/s]), wooden sticks, knives, and pencils create a track of primary tissue damage without substantial bruising or blunt tearing of surrounding tissue. In contrast, higher velocity projectiles result in a more complex wounding pattern. An impact shock wave precedes the projectile. This sonic wave is very brief (2 s) and does not contribute substantially to tissue destruction. As the projectile penetrates brain tissue, it crushes tissue in its path, creating a permanent track of tissue injury. Higher velocity projectiles will impart an additional temporary cavitation effect in their wake, which is a velocity-related phenomenon. This results from the transmission of the kinetic energy of the projectile to the surrounding tissue, thus rapidly compressing it tangentially from the primary track. After the cavity expands to its maximum size, it starts to collapse under negative pressure and can suck in external debris. This cavity will then often undergo smaller expansions and contractions of diminishing amplitude. In relatively inelastic tissue, such as the brain, this results in a track of injury often 10 to 20 times the size of the offending projectile.

For these reasons, a .45 automatic pistol (muzzle velocity of 869 ft/s [265 m/s] and a short round-nosed projectile with little yaw) will create a very small temporary cavity. Conversely, a 7.62-mm rifle (muzzle velocity 2,830 ft/s [863 m/s] and a long, sharp nose with maximum yaw) will create a very large temporary cavity.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

So... you could build your arrows as CON Drains, or with CON Drain effects tied to them for 'bleed,' Heals at the Rate Body Heals, and so on. That would represent the ability of the weapon to bleed someone out, rather than doing straight damage.

 

It's a more complicated model, but it seems to accurately reflect what the man with the brain is saying.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

And from talking to people that have actually tried it' date=' my understanding is that a decent Kevlar vest [u']will[/u] stop any arrow you can shoot at it.

For what it's worth, Wikipedia says I'm wrong:

Most vests offer little protection against arrows, ice picks, or stabbing knife blows. As the force is concentrated in a relatively small area with such bladed weapons, the tip of the object can push through the weave of most bullet-resistant fabrics. Specially-designed vests are available that can provide protection against bladed weapons, and sharp objects; they are often used in prison-guard vests. There are a variety of strategies to achieve stab and slash protection. Some materials like Dyneema do offer considerable protection against these types of threats. This is important for the safety of law enforcement and prison guard personnel.

I know the vest used in the test I mentioned above was a fairly expensive one (an FBI tactical vest, without plates). So maybe it would be more accurate to say that most high-end vests can stop arrows? In game terms: Reduced Penetration Only Against Vests Without Stab/Slash Hardening? Sorry to complicate matters further...

[Yansuf]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

For what it's worth' date=' Wikipedia says I'm wrong:

 

I know the vest used in the test I mentioned above was a fairly expensive one (an FBI tactical vest, without plates). So maybe it would be more accurate to say that most high-end vests can stop arrows? In game terms: Reduced Penetration Only Against Vests Without Stab/Slash Hardening? Sorry to complicate matters further...

 

Modern fiber (kevlar, spectra, etc.) armor does not work well against arrows and knives, I don't know why. And I don't think anyone else does either; I have heard many conflicting answers. Some are very reasonable, but I don't believe anyone knows if they are right. (BTW, my PhD is in engineering.)

 

Based on historical evidence, some old fashioned soft armor did work well against arrows. Gambesons were widely used by the Crusaders and troops of the Kingdoms of Outremer, and were very good at stopping arrows, based on historical accounts. A gambeson is basically a very thick quilt.

 

I can say that the question of penetration depends not only on the energy of the projectile, but also on how much energy goes into the target and how much is used to deform the projectile. Based on my experience in the SCA with bows and crossbows, crossbow bolts penetrate much better than arrows for the same "muzzle energy." I believe that this is due to the energy lost in "flexing" the arrow, but I have never tried to test this, so it's just a guess.

[Remjin]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

I know the vest used in the test I mentioned above was a fairly expensive one (an FBI tactical vest' date=' without plates). So maybe it would be more accurate to say that most [u']high-end[/u] vests can stop arrows? In game terms: Reduced Penetration Only Against Vests Without Stab/Slash Hardening? Sorry to complicate matters further...

 

Vests usually come in levels... from I to IIIA with advancing levels of protection. When I was looking to purchase one (my line or work doesn't require it, but its a good idea, and the cost was prohibitive so I didn't get one) they don't mention arrows and such on the list of things it protects against. There are separate vests, called stab vests, that are worn by corrections officers for that sort of thing.

 

Just my 2 cents...

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

Vests usually come in levels... from I to IIIA with advancing levels of protection. When I was looking to purchase one (my line or work doesn't require it' date=' but its a good idea, and the cost was prohibitive so I didn't get one) they don't mention arrows and such on the list of things it protects against. There are separate vests, called stab vests, that are worn by corrections officers for that sort of thing.[/quote']

Right. Don't remember the rating of the tac vest I mentioned, I remembered that it had stab/slash protection, but I forgot that wasn't "standard-issue."

 

So in game terms, would knives & arrows be considered AP (only vs Kevlar-type armor), unless that armor was bought with Hardened (only vs knives/arrows)?

[Yansuf]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

Right. Don't remember the rating of the tac vest I mentioned, I remembered that it had stab/slash protection, but I forgot that wasn't "standard-issue."

 

So in game terms, would knives & arrows be considered AP (only vs Kevlar-type armor), unless that armor was bought with Hardened (only vs knives/arrows)?

 

I think that it would be more appropriate to take a limitation on the armor, half effect (or less) vs cutting and stabbing weapons. That could be a -1/2 or even a -1 limitation.

[Remjin]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

Or a nice medium of -3/4 =)

 

I'd say it would depend on the type of game you're playing... in a game with knives/swords/arrows as being more prevalent it would be a bigger disadvantage versus a game where guns or energy blasts were more prevalent.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

Modern fiber (kevlar, spectra, etc.) armor does not work well against arrows and knives, I don't know why. And I don't think anyone else does either; I have heard many conflicting answers. Some are very reasonable, but I don't believe anyone knows if they are right. (BTW, my PhD is in engineering.)

I haven't heard any conflicting answers. The answer I have heard is that arrows and knives concentrate their energy in a much smaller area than a bullet, giving them actually more energy per unit area.

[Yansuf]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

I haven't heard any conflicting answers. The answer I have heard is that arrows and knives concentrate their energy in a much smaller area than a bullet' date=' giving them actually more energy per unit area.[/quote']

 

That is not true.

Basically, Kevlar and similar materials can be cut fairly easily.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

Since I'm needing these ideas for a game where equipment is "free" the limitation amount isn't that big a deal.

 

I will likely play up that "soft armors" i.e. standard bullet-proof-vests... without plates... would be 1/2 vs. knives/arrows, etc. Stab vests are unique and would provide full defense vs. knives/arrows... how they do vs. bullets, I have no idea.

 

As to a method of differentiating bullet damage from arrow damage... I'll probably allow arrows a couple of basic effects.

 

1) "There's a sharp stick imbedded in me" effect: 50% chance of 1d6 NND does body damage if action is taken with arrow still stuck in... judgment based on hit location and action taken. Ex: Throw a punch with arrow in arm... likely chance of more damage. Ex 2: Simply walking with arrow in arm... no chance of more damage.

 

2) "Wow... that's a lot of blood" effect: CON roll when hit with arrow. Missed roll, brain did not register shock and is not reducing blood flow... BODY loss of 1 pt per round on 11 or less roll until successful removal and paramedics roll.

 

3) "Should we take it out or leave it in?" effect: Removing an arrow without a combat paramec roll will do NND Killing Damage does body and can activate the bleeding effect.

 

Those basic house rules should make arrows "feel" different than bullets in most cases.

 

I've created similar "blow through" type house rules for hv/rifle rounds vs. targets that make heavy weapons do cool stuff vs. light or no armored bodies and shoot right through low defense walls like drywall and such.

 

Thanks everyone for your input.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

I will likely play up that "soft armors" i.e. standard bullet-proof-vests... without plates... would be 1/2 vs. knives/arrows' date=' etc.[/quote']

Yeah, making it a Lim of the armor makes more sense than making it an Adv of the arrows (as I originally suggested).

 

Stab vests are unique and would provide full defense vs. knives/arrows... how they do vs. bullets' date=' I have no idea.[/quote']

I was under the impression that they act as normal vs. bullets. But then, I'm the guy who forgot normal vests didn't stop knives in the first place, so don't listen to me.

 

As to a method of differentiating bullet damage from arrow damage... I'll probably allow arrows a couple of basic effects.

I like these! I hadn't actually written any of my own rules down yet, so I'll just critique yours:

 

1) "There's a sharp stick imbedded in me" effect: 50% chance of 1d6 NND does body damage if action is taken with arrow still stuck in... judgment based on hit location and action taken.

I might be inclined to make this based on a CON roll rather than just a flat 50% chance; not sure it makes any more sense in terms of realism, but I like tying it to a characteristic. And depending on how deadly I wanted to be, I might leave out the "Does Body" part and make it just about the pain. YMMV.

 

2) "Wow... that's a lot of blood" effect: CON roll when hit with arrow. Missed roll' date=' brain did not register shock and is not reducing blood flow... BODY loss of 1 pt per round on 11 or less roll until successful removal and paramedics roll.[/quote']

I was thinking of just using the standard bleeding rules, but treating arrow wounds as one level more severe on the Bleeding table. But if you're looking for something more lethal, that'll work fine.

 

3) "Should we take it out or leave it in?" effect: Removing an arrow without a combat paramec roll will do NND Killing Damage does body and can activate the bleeding effect.

Good. How much Body damage - 1 pip? If using the standard bleeding rules, maybe a failed Medic roll makes the wound one level more severe on the table?

 

I've created similar "blow through" type house rules for hv/rifle rounds vs. targets that make heavy weapons do cool stuff vs. light or no armored bodies and shoot right through low defense walls like drywall and such.

Veering off-topic, but... We tried something similar to this once (treated all rifles as having one level of AP), but found it resulted in a higher mortality level than we wanted. Have you experienced this, and if so how did you deal with it? Or are you just more comfortable than I am with a high mortality level?

[RDU Neil]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

 

I might be inclined to make this based on a CON roll rather than just a flat 50% chance; not sure it makes any more sense in terms of realism, but I like tying it to a characteristic. And depending on how deadly I wanted to be, I might leave out the "Does Body" part and make it just about the pain. YMMV.

 

To get really crunchy, I'd probably make off-hand rulings based on the hit location for what kind of damage is done. A torso shot might not cause a ton of pain, but movement could cut something really important (high body, low stun type of attack) while an arrow stuck in the leg could grate against bone and be excrutiatingly painful without really life threatening (high stun, low body type of attack)

 

As a GM, I'm comfortable making these rules up on the fly, but sometimes the players want to have things written out ahead of time so they can know what to expect.

 

I was thinking of just using the standard bleeding rules, but treating arrow wounds as one level more severe on the Bleeding table. But if you're looking for something more lethal, that'll work fine.

 

I should probably look at 5th Ed bleeding rules... I really haven't done that in a while because old bleeding rules were pretty lousy. Also... to be clear... each round a 11- would have to be rolled, so 47% of the time (IIRC) no blood loss would occur. Basically have to fail an initial CON roll... then also roll 11- every round to continue to bleed. Shouldn't be TOO lethal... except when it is, and that is cool with me.

 

Good. How much Body damage - 1 pip? If using the standard bleeding rules, maybe a failed Medic roll makes the wound one level more severe on the table?

 

In my style of GMing... I'd base the damage on how badly they missed the paramedics roll (since everyone gets it at 8- ) Barely miss it... maybe a pip and some stun. Miss it a lot, roll a d6 and bleeding... roll an 18 on paramedics, likely do as much damage as if he was shot all over again. That kind of thing.

 

This is what I love about Hero. Especially when you don't have to worry about "costing" an ability... the basic mechanics and rules of the game can be used in a lot of flexible ways to simulate very specific stuff in game.

 

Veering off-topic, but... We tried something similar to this once (treated all rifles as having one level of AP), but found it resulted in a higher mortality level than we wanted. Have you experienced this, and if so how did you deal with it? Or are you just more comfortable than I am with a high mortality level?

 

Depending on the round, I usually give rifles "Light AP" This works because I use alternate AP rules. No "halving" of defense... but Body of AP attack subtract from non-hardened defense. Ex: 7 body on 2d6 AP attack... -7 to non-hardened resistant defenses of target. Will blow through most light body armor.

 

This way of doing AP is more flexible, because I can apply the AP to only SOME of the dice of an attack. For "Light AP" on a 7.62 round... normally 2d6+1K... I'd say 1d6 of that was AP. So roll a 4 & 3... a 3 on the AP die +1 = 8 Body/3 AP... will blow through a second chance vest... but a heavier vest would still have some defense. This tends to work REALLY well in giving different rounds different "feel."

 

Adding plates to Body armor not only ups the defense, but turns that defense into hardened in many cases. Thus you can have the effect of assault rifles chewing up light/no armor guys... but suddenly being stopped cold by Level IV vests... all within a tight damage range of 1 1/2d6 - 3d6 Killing. (Essentially, my mods are driven by the fact that compacted ranges of damage at these levels means there needs to be other ways of differentiating attacks than more or less dice.)

 

Yeah... off topic, but fun to talk about.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

I should probably look at 5th Ed bleeding rules... I really haven't done that in a while because old bleeding rules were pretty lousy.

They haven't changed much (if at all) from 4th Ed. I'm okay with them myself, but if you didn't like them before odds are you still won't.

 

In my style of GMing... I'd base the damage on how badly they missed the paramedics roll (since everyone gets it at 8- ) Barely miss it... maybe a pip and some stun. Miss it a lot' date=' roll a d6 and bleeding... roll an 18 on paramedics, likely do as much damage as if he was shot all over again. That kind of thing. [/quote']

I think I'd probably just cap it at 1 pip, but that's me.

 

This is what I love about Hero. Especially when you don't have to worry about "costing" an ability... the basic mechanics and rules of the game can be used in a lot of flexible ways to simulate very specific stuff in game.

Amen.

 

Depending on the round' date=' I usually give rifles "Light AP" This works because I use alternate AP rules. No "halving" of defense... but Body of AP attack subtract from non-hardened defense. Ex: 7 body on 2d6 AP attack... -7 to non-hardened resistant defenses of target. Will blow through most light body armor.[/quote']

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

Seriously, that's probably crunchier than I like to get in most of my games, but for really gritty, gun-heavy campaigns it's not a bad approach.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

Seriously, that's probably crunchier than I like to get in most of my games, but for really gritty, gun-heavy campaigns it's not a bad approach.

 

Thanks... and don't get me wrong... I'm not trying to imply this level of "crunch" should be universal in application. I would never approach this kind of detail in a supers game or even most "cinematic" style games. For the more "realistic" games though... where combat tends to be just guns/knives/kicks & punches... the generic damage feel of Hero can become repetitive. Since such games (in my experience) are not about having characters buy "powers" that are built to simulate effect... it is much easier to have campaign rules that are in effect for everyone to help simulate the detailed nuance of different guns, slashing vs. stabbing vs. impact damage... the nuance of bullets... the vast differences of explosives vs. high velocity mass, etc.

 

Hero can actually handle most of this kind of crunchy task resolution... it just takes a lot of thought ahead of time on how much you want to deconstruct things... and how much is just "Take 6 Body, 18 Stun. Next!"

[Krieghandt]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

location, location, location. arrows that dont hit organs or major blood vessles are just painful areas of potential infection. Another known effect is that major muscle groups that have arrows, fencing blades, pencils, etc have a good chance of "shutting down" about 45 seconds after being damaged. I think the biggest reason of arrow penetration of kevlar is speed. bullets try to strecht and snap kevlar strands, which is 100 % of its strength, while slower objects try to move the weave aside. Carbon fibers are only 10% strength vs. sheer stresses.

just some observations

Krieghandt

[Bismark]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

Another thing to bear in mind with archery is that the payload matters as much as the launcher: light, bendy arrows (as used by a lot of steppe/eastern archers throughout history) are particularly bad at penetrating almost any rigid armour (and decent mail, or padded armour for that matter) at above short range, even when equipped with small AP-style heads (which they often were, to conserve valuable metal) and fired from an obscenely powerful composite bow. They will just shatter against iron/steel plate armour at short range. Load the same bow with a rigid, heavier arrow and see the difference...

 

A side effect of this sort of thing is that light arrows are actually far too effective at stunning people wearing helmets in HERO - if the arrow does not penetrate the helmet, it should be a maximum of 1 STUN done as the arrow has neither the momentum nor the kinetic energy to cause appreciable blunt trauma in that circumstance (time to ignore the 'x5 STUN before armour' for head shots).

 

In fact non-penetrating arrows will only cause noticeable impact effects if they are close-range or point-blank hits with heavy arrows (longbow arrows, Mongol AP specials, etc.).

 

I encounter the above factors all the time in my FH campaign; eventually I decided that unless it was a point-blank hit, only BODY that penetrated the armour counted for STUN determination purposes.

[Markdoc]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

Couple o' points:

 

First off the myth that arrow wounds are in some mystical way different from bullet wounds is, well, a myth. This kind of thing:

 

"In bowhunting, it’s all about the broadhead. It must slice cleanly with little or no bruising or tearing of the tissue. In very simplified terms, when a razor-sharp blade slices living tissue (muscle and/or organs) without bruising or tearing the tissue it has sliced, the brain fails to initiate the process which causes blood coagulation, resulting in extreme hemorrhaging."

 

is just fantasy. The brain has nothing (that's zip, zero, nada, not a sausage) to do with blood clotting, which is a chemical reaction caused by exposure to material released by damaged cells or to changes in ambient oxygen. Slashing and stab wounds do bleed a lot. Guess what? Bullet wounds bleed like billy-o, too. What determines how much you bleed is the size and number of blood vessels opened - not how they were opened.

 

The short version is that wounds - all wounds - kill in one or two ways. One is if the missile hits something vital (brain, heart, major nerve). The other is bleeding. All this stuff about hydrostatic shock, extreme hemorrhaging, etc is hooey, made to fill up magazine columns.

 

Arrows are less likely to be rapidly lethal than bullets (even pistol bullets) because they have less penetration and therefore are less likely to hit something vital (there's a reason the gun replaced the bow...). All of your vital bits are pretty well buried. However, a broadhead arrow may actually cause more bleeding than a pistol bullet simply because of the size of the head - it gives you a greater chance of slashing a major blood vessel. In other words, it makes a bigger hole. A rifle bullet will make a skinnier hole, but odds are, it will be just as big, or bigger, since it's a *long* skinny hole - and it's more likley to be lethal since it gets to where your important stuff is kept.

 

So to sum up, rifle bullets are more likely to kill (I think that's covered by the increased DC already), pistol bullets more likely to wound and arrows *may* cause more bleeding (so you might want to decrease the chance of bleeding stopping for rifle and arrow wounds if you use the bleeding rules).

 

I'm not sure that the whole "removing the arrow" thing adds much in terms of realism - moving with a bullet inside you is damn painful too, and will also cause damage: in real life, any medical attention should involve getting that out as fast as is safely possible. But if it adds to the feel, go for it.

 

I can't really say anthing about kevlar, since I have never seen anyone shot wearing kevlar - either with a gun *or* a bow

 

But the other thing to consider is that a bow is as silent as a silenced pistol, so that can addto the freaky factor - if there's much background noise, the arrow can appear as if from nowhere.

 

cheers, Mark

[Thrakazog]

Re: Archery Ballistics

 

*looks around*

 

 

I think I'll just stay with the rules as given.