Block

[Truthsayer]

OK, I know this is a simple question, but I couldn't figure it out from the big book. The Hulk with a 90 Str punches Spiderman with 40 str. Spidey chooses to block, does he block 40 Str and take 10d6 damage? I'm wondering about the martial block that aborts the attack. Kung fu Chee has 20 Str and 4 DC. He gets punched by the Hulk. Are you telling me that he aborts Hulk's block? Help me out here.

[Edsel]

Re: Block

 

The attack is completely blocked. Keep in mind that, in a case such as this, the special effect of the block may actually be a duck or dodge that puts the target in a good position to counter attack. Just because the name of the maneuver is "Block" that doesn't mean it is a block in the classical sense, the actual effects may vary depending on the situation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Block

 

A quick look will show several threads currently going on this topic. It bears noting that a classic Block generally seeks to redirect the strike, not absorb it.

[Rkane_1]

Re: Block

 

Truthsayer-According to the book, yes. A little guy can "Block" the Hulk. Many will argue that Block is only the name of the maneuver and should not be considered an actual Block but rather a mechanic that represents a number of different special effects including Dodging or even pushing off of the opponent or tripping him or etc. etc.

 

Yeah...I know. Weird, huh?

 

But, I have had this debate recently and the fact that it is a balanced part of the game system means that there are quite a number of people unwilling to look at changing it to suit the special effects of "the interposition or a limb to avoid a strike or the use of limbs to redirect the force of a strike" but there are a number of recent posts offering variants including my own and a number of others thoroughly challenging these "more realistic" or "exact special effect" maneuvers as not providing enough protection to preclude use of the Dodge instead in almost every instance where Defense is needed.

 

It is a matter of taste... I suggest reading through the threads, including all the contructive criticism and consider what best fits in your campaign.

[Rkane_1]

Re: Block

 

Some recent links for you.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46123

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46126

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45821

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45849

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45974

 

And of course Derek Hiemforth's Commentary on the topic

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46129

 

Enjoy...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Block

 

OK' date=' I know this is a simple question, but I couldn't figure it out from the big book. The Hulk with a 90 Str punches Spiderman with 40 str. Spidey chooses to block, does he block 40 Str and take 10d6 damage? I'm wondering about the martial block that aborts the attack. Kung fu Chee has 20 Str and 4 DC. He gets punched by the Hulk. Are you telling me that he aborts Hulk's block? Help me out here.[/quote']

 

Why would Spider-Man EVER want to Block an attack from the Hulk when Dodge gives him a higher DCV bonus?

 

The only mechanical differences between HERO's Block and Dodge are:

• Block is proactive (it provides 2 chances at avoiding getting hit; 1 under the defender's control plus 1 passive chance that the attack still misses).
  
• Block gives lower DEX characters a method by which to attack first against an otherwise higher DEX character on the next phase.
  
• Dodge just gives a passive bonus to DCV

The only character(s) in Marvel that might have a higher DEX than Spidey are Quicksilver and other true speedsters.

 

Assuming that Kung-Fu Chee has a lower DEX than the Hulk why would he even bother trying to attack him? RUN!! HIDE!!!

[prestidigitator]

Re: Block

 

Yep. Spidey causes the Hulk to miss his attack completely (except that for some purposes--like for being able to continue a Sweep maneuver--it doesn't count as a literal miss). That's when the Hulk gets, "frustrated," and starts picking up buses and sh*t.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Block

 

OK' date=' I know this is a simple question, but I couldn't figure it out from the big book. The Hulk with a 90 Str punches Spiderman with 40 str. Spidey chooses to block, does he block 40 Str and take 10d6 damage? I'm wondering about the martial block that aborts the attack. Kung fu Chee has 20 Str and 4 DC. He gets punched by the Hulk. Are you telling me that he aborts Hulk's block? Help me out here.[/quote']

 

Yes, but neither Spidy nor Kung Fu Chee are just curling their arms in front of their head to "take the blow". Spidy is probably ducking out of the way with the intent of counterattacking or running away, and Kung Fu Chee is likely doing something similar, or using his superior and nigh mystical martial arts traing to deflect the Hulk's fist (not stop, just veer it slightly off course).

 

Block and Dodge (and any other Maneuver) are just names, not descriptions. See the rulebook or any of the threads linked to above for more infomation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Block

 

The issue I have with the logic behind these "My punches are too strong to be blocked; the rules need to be changed" threads is that they are approaching the issue, in my ooinion, from the wrong end.

 

Spidey's player views his character as fast and skilled enough to redirect, avoid or divert pretty much any attack. So the character buys Martial Block, and perhaps levels wth that maneuver. Spidey can block most attacks. Conception met.

 

Hulk's player views his character as punching so hard his attacks should be difficult to block. So, based on these threads, he complains that "My character is so strong Spidey should be unable to block his attacks. Change the rules." Did Spidey get Martial Block and martial Dodge for free because he's so agile? No, of course not. So why should Hulk's ability come free? It's the Hulk's player who needs to spend some points to realize his character conception. Maybe that's a naked Indirect on his STR, only to prevent blocking and only against opponents of less than X STR. Maybe it's a damage shield type ability that only acts when his punch is blocked (the target still takes some damage).

 

But the approach should not be "well, MY character should be able to do this, so therefore the rules for EVERYONE ELSE'S character need to change." It should be "My character should be able to do something that doesn't normally happen under the rules, so MY character needs to spend the points to make that happen."

[Rkane_1]

Re: Block

 

And since you weighed in with your opinion, Hugh. I will respectfully weigh in with mine.

 

Block, as is serves its purpose in a cinematic campaign. In a grittier, more realistic campaign, the GM may want to allow for certain principles of physics to have an effect on the rules. A Rules Variant offers them this ability to say "Yes, more powerful shots should be harder to block and/or redirect if using a certain special effect and the term Block in my game I will more strictly limit the special effect of to mean the interposition of limbs or weapons to block or redirect the force of the blow. If enough strength or leverage cannot be generated to do so, the Blocker may suffer some damage."

 

In a cinematic game, as you have pointed out before, the Block as is is fine and the alternative of buying Strength with Indirect (although it does seem unusual) might fit. In a game wanting to change some things to make them more in line with the GM's perceptions of how reality works, not so much.

 

The problem then arises of monkeying with a balanced part of the game to produce a more SFX defined version of Block that is logical yet still provides a comparable defense to Dodge, otherwise everyone would just choose Dodge as its benefits are total lack of damage.

 

As such, I am still working on my house rule. I had one but many people shook it up and made so many good points about thre flaws in it, I have decided to "take it back into the shop" and work on it some more before submission again.

 

One VERY good suggestion from Prestidigitator did come up and that I hammered on for a bit was to buy PD with RSR (-1/2); Must be aware of attack (-1/4); Does not work versus Dim Mak(-1/4); and Takes a Half Phase action (not an attack action)(-1/4) This model would provide extra PD and still allow an opponent an attack action afterword, gaining a bit of an advantage over Dodge but the Blocker would not be able to move before hand the attack unless his attack had a component that allowed it and could even be used for missiles and the like without further limitations on it.

 

But I am still looking. *smile*

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Block

 

And since you weighed in with your opinion' date=' Hugh. I will respectfully weigh in with mine.[/quote']

 

Fair enough.

 

Block' date=' as is serves its purpose in a cinematic campaign. In a grittier, more realistic campaign, the GM may want to allow for certain principles of physics to have an effect on the rules. A Rules Variant offers them this ability to say "Yes, more powerful shots should be harder to block and/or redirect if using a certain special effect and the term Block in my game [b']I will more strictly limit the special effect of to mean the interposition of limbs or weapons to block or redirect the force of the blow[/b]. If enough strength or leverage cannot be generated to do so, the Blocker may suffer some damage."

 

We've discussed the SFX issue before. I like your phrasing (bolded above), which I think clarifies the issue that this type of variant does restrict the SFX of a Block and, as such, may leave some other SFX of a Block unavailable under this variant. Which is fine, if that's the game the group wants.

 

The problem then arises of monkeying with a balanced part of the game to produce a more SFX defined version of Block that is logical yet still provides a comparable defense to Dodge' date=' otherwise everyone would just choose Dodge as its benefits are total lack of damage.[/quote']

 

Just as you say. If no one will Block because it's a poor tactic, this is also unrealistic compared to real world combat, and to the source material. That presumes the source material for the grittier, more realistic game does feature blocking as a common choice, however I assume it does given your desire to maintain it as a viable option under any variant you ultimately adopt.

 

One VERY good suggestion from Prestidigitator did come up and that I hammered on for a bit was to buy PD with RSR (-1/2); Must be aware of attack (-1/4); Does not work versus Dim Mak(-1/4); and Takes a Half Phase action (not an attack action)(-1/4) This model would provide extra PD and still allow an opponent an attack action afterword' date=' gaining a bit of an advantage over Dodge but the Blocker would not be able to move before hand the attack unless his attack had a component that allowed it and could even be used for missiles and the like without further limitations on it.[/quote']

 

This would be a good purchase for a character envisioned as being so expert at blocking that he can do so without using an attack action (or, without "requires a half phase", any impediment in his ability to act). A similar structure might be adopted for Dodge (+3 DCV which takes similar limitations, or +5 DCV for Martial Dodge, which is not cumulative with a Dodge maneuver) to indicate the character can effectivvely dodge without use of an attack action.

[OddHat]

Re: Block

 

The issue I have with the logic behind these "My punches are too strong to be blocked; the rules need to be changed" threads is that they are approaching the issue' date=' in my ooinion, from the wrong end.[/quote']

 

The simplest method is probably to just make sure that Superstrong characters invest a few levels in OCV.

 

I have in the real world run into martial artists better trained than myself who blocked my punches but were knocked over or injured. I've also ended up with serious bruising from blocking punches and kicks. In my experience, the problem of the "Block" mechanic actually preventing all damage is a real one. I do realize that a successful block when sparring may not be a successful "Block" in Hero System terms, but the problem of describing what's going on simply and clearly in game terms remains.

[Edsel]

Re: Block

 

Since it seems relevant to this conversation below is a quote concerning STR and Block taken from the rules FAQ.

Q: Does Block depend on the relative STR of the characters, or on the types of weapons used? For example, can a pixy (STR -10) using a dagger block a giant (STR 30) using a club with no penalty?

 

A: Block does not depend on the relative STRs of the characters involved, or on the weapons used. There are rules on FH 153-54 for different sized weapons and how to use them, but no specific combat modifiers (other than some rules for attacking large targets). Since Block doesn’t depend on STR per se, nor on the type of weapon(s) used, there’s nothing in the rules that prevents a pixy with a dagger from Blocking a giant with a club — after all, the Block could simply be a special effect of gently deflecting the blow just enough to keep from being hit, or even of a sort of dodging.

 

If you wanted, you could adapt the -2 modifier for unarmed Blocks of weapon attacks (FH 155) to this sort of situation. You might also want to consult FH 189, which has rules for weapon breakage that specifically covers Blocking.

[OddHat]

Re: Block

 

Since it seems relevant to this conversation below is a quote concerning STR and Block taken from the rules FAQ.

 

Yup. 5thER goes into it as well. OCV penalties work, "common and dramatic sense" decisions based on SFX work, house rules can work. HERO can be pretty flexible.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Block

 

Block' date=' as is serves its purpose in a cinematic campaign. In a grittier, more realistic campaign, the GM may want to allow for certain principles of physics to have an effect on the rules. A Rules Variant offers them this ability to say "Yes, more powerful shots should be harder to block and/or redirect if using a certain special effect and the term Block in my game I will more strictly limit the special effect of to mean the interposition of limbs or weapons to block or redirect the force of the blow. If enough strength or leverage cannot be generated to do so, the Blocker may suffer some damage." [/quote']

Except that IMO the powerful attack that is harder to Block is actually the cinematic unrealistic example, not the other way around. In fact, the harder the attacker is swinging the more they tend to be committed to the attack and the more difficult time they are going to have accounting for any small redirection or change in target position. That some attacks are just so strong they cannot be avoided/redirected fits more in comic books and anime than realism as far as I am concerned.

[Robyn]

Re: Block

 

One VERY good suggestion from Prestidigitator did come up and that I hammered on for a bit was to buy PD

 

I came up with a similar idea here; you could as easily call it a Block.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Block

 

One VERY good suggestion from Prestidigitator did come up and that I hammered on for a bit was to buy PD with RSR (-1/2); Must be aware of attack (-1/4); Does not work versus Dim Mak(-1/4); and Takes a Half Phase action (not an attack action)(-1/4)....

For completeness that, "suggestion," should probably be taken in context.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Block

 

Just buy the hulk some levels with HtH with the limitations: Only for OCV, Only to make it harder to block.

 

$0.02

[Rkane_1]

Re: Block

 

Except that IMO the powerful attack that is harder to Block is actually the cinematic unrealistic example' date=' not the other way around. In fact, the harder the attacker is swinging the more they tend to be committed to the attack and the more difficult time they are going to have accounting for any small redirection or change in target position. That some attacks are just so strong they cannot be avoided/redirected fits more in comic books and anime than realism as far as I am concerned.[/quote']

 

This is where I will respectfully disagree with you, sir. Because someone has Strength, does not mean they lack control over it. I daresay the more Strength they can excercise, the more likely their strikes will be performed with unerring absoluteness. Now if the Mass of the strike is greater than the Strength of the attacker can guide or correct (for instance, a halfling swinging a huge club) then I can see this argument about a massive blow being easier to Block or Dodge altogether. But if an ogre with massive Strength swings the club in a controlled manner using his Strength to guide it, then the shot should be harder to block (meaning in this case, redirection with application of force). The more "out of control" a blow is because of lower strength, the easier a block (meaning redirection of the attack by application of force) would be as less strength would have to be used and would be easier applied by the Blocker to throw the attack of course. Of course, you may feel differently inclined and this is just my opinion.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Block

 

This is where I will respectfully disagree with you' date=' sir. Because someone has Strength, does not mean they lack control over it. I daresay the more Strength they can excercise, the more likely their strikes will be performed with unerring absoluteness. Now if the Mass of the strike is greater than the Strength of the attacker can guide or correct (for instance, a halfling swinging a huge club) then I can see this argument about a massive blow being easier to Block or Dodge altogether. But if an ogre with massive Strength swings the club in a controlled manner using his Strength to guide it, then the shot should be harder to block (meaning in this case, redirection with application of force). The more "out of control" a blow is because of lower strength, the easier a block (meaning redirection of the attack by application of force) would be as less strength would have to be used and would be easier applied by the Blocker to throw the attack of course. Of course, you may feel differently inclined and this is just my opinion.[/quote']

I do feel differently. How well the attack is controlled is reflected more by Dex IMO, and that is already taken care of in the Block mechanics by the difference in OCV. You don't simply put your weapon/limb up to your target and push with all your might; you use your strength to swing and put kinetic energy into the weapon, and that can be difficult to control once built up. Try taking a big heavy stick and swinging it with all your might, and then attempt to instantly stop it or change its direction to a perpendicular arc in mid-swing. The more force you put into an attack, the more committed you are to that attack. We use that fact in martial arts all the time.

 

(And as for redirecting, the idea is to go as much with the original direction of the attack as possible. Even if the attacker is continuing to put force behind the blow, that force is likely committed to the direction of the swing, not to keeping it from deviating minorly from side to side.)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Block

 

A Rules Variant offers them this ability to say "Yes' date=' more powerful shots should be harder to block and/or redirect if using a certain special effect and the term Block in my game I will more strictly limit the special effect of to mean the interposition of limbs or weapons to block or redirect the force of the blow. If enough strength or leverage cannot be generated to do so, the Blocker may suffer some damage." [/quote']

 

If you choose to limit the SFX of Block, that is your choice. As for the default mechanic for how the Block maneuver works in conjunction with real world physics...

 

A more powerful attack should be harder to absorb than a less powerful attack. Accuracy is not a factor if the defender is voluntarily taking the blow.

 

A more accurate attack should be harder to deflect/redirect than a less accurate attack. The power of an attack is not a factor if it cannot connect with the target.

 

These two statements aren't absolutes. In some cases the power of an attack may affect (improve) its accuracy for example, due to being more difficult to redirect.

 

The question is, where is the problem? Is there a problem with Block? Block can represent absorbing the blow or redirecting it, or even completely avoiding it without any kind of contact at all. Hell, a Block maneuver can represent a character using one of his Powers in a creative way, such as Teleportation or Desolidification. Doesn't look like there is a problem there, since the person using Block can decide how he's defending against the attack when he uses the maneuver. Is there a problem with the attack? The attack has only the SFX that was designated when the points where spent on it and that SFX must be used each time the attack is used. If the attack is STR, it's automatically a physical blow from one of the character's limbs. Sounds like it's the attack that has the build in limitations on how it's used. So if you want an attack to have special treatment, it would have to be bought in a special way.

 

My 2 cents on how to make the Hulk's punch unblockable (by any means/SFX a Block can have), try a 1 Hex AOE Accurate on his STR. You can't block AOE attacks by default I believe (I'm not absolutely sure, but I know you can't normally Missile Deflect AOE attacks). If you think this is too expensive to the utility (I do), you can create an Advantage, Unblockable (+1/4), which is based off of Indirect. In my opinion, Indirect itself won't make an attack unblockable and doesn't make sense on a HTH attack anyway.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Block

 

Dust Raven,

 

The Ultimate Brick suggests that attacks with AOE 1 Hex (possible sfx: Big Arms) be un-Dodgeable but still be Blockable and conversly attacks with Indirect (possible sfx: Super-Uppercut) be un-Blockable but still Dodgeable.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Block

 

Dust Raven,

 

The Ultimate Brick suggests that attacks with AOE 1 Hex (possible sfx: Big Arms) be un-Dodgeable but still be Blockable and conversly attacks with Indirect (possible sfx: Super-Uppercut) be un-Blockable but still Dodgeable.

 

That's what I get for memorizing 5E and not the Ultimate Series... Which reminds me, I still need to finish memorizing 5ER.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Block

 

Which reminds me' date=' I still need to finish memorizing 5ER.[/quote']

Good luck with that.

[OddHat]

Re: Block

 

Dust Raven,

 

The Ultimate Brick suggests that attacks with AOE 1 Hex (possible sfx: Big Arms) be un-Dodgeable but still be Blockable

 

Yes, but it's a suggestion that cheats players out of utility they've paid points for (sometimes large numbers of points); a GM should think carefuly about when and if to take it.

 

Personally, I ignore it.