azato Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 when you can just buy the stat cheaper? For example: Aid 1d6 strength costs 10pts. You will get, on average, 3.5 pts of strength. It costs endurance to activate and returns rather quickly. OTOH: +10 pts of strenght cost just 10 pts, costs not end to activate (unless you take the disadvantage) and will last for however long you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Johnston Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... Aid is primarily intended to amp up others. d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... The cost-effectiveness of Aid doesn't really kick in when you're looking just at Self-Only effects on a single Characteristic. Un-Limited Aid lets you pass the benefits on to any number of other people, and unlike Characteristics Usable On Others you can just "fire and forget" - once someone is Aided they have the benefits without requiring your further involvement. And once you start putting Advantages on Aid to increase the number of Characteristics you can affect with that single Power, it really becomes the most cost-effective option. That said, I think that Self-Only for Aid should be -1 rather than -1/2; not only because of the disparity that you point out, but because -1 is supposed to represent reducing the effectiveness of the Power by half, and "Self Only" and "Others Only" are the only two choices there are for Aid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... STR does cost you END. Everytime you want to lift something heavy, hit someone, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... And in fact, Aid under Fifth Edition does not cost Endurance to activate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... But the increased stat does cost END normally when used. But David Johnston has it right: AID is intended for use on other people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... Um, I don't think I'd go so far as to say it's "intended for use on other people" - there's nothing preventing you from using it on yourself too, unless it's so Limited. IMHO it would be more appropriate to say that it's intended for use on other people in addition to yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tesuji Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... when you can just buy the stat cheaper? For example: Aid 1d6 strength costs 10pts. You will get, on average, 3.5 pts of strength. It costs endurance to activate and returns rather quickly. OTOH: +10 pts of strenght cost just 10 pts, costs not end to activate (unless you take the disadvantage) and will last for however long you want. aid can be used to give others extra attributes, not just yourself. I rarely if ever buy aid for any "self-only" use, instead just buy the characteristic with appropriate limitations. but Aid I buy for boosting others. consider that for the price of 30 ap "Spell of vitality" 1d6 Aid to END +1/2 and to stun +1 (fases at 5 cp per hour) +2 adder (raise max to 10 cp per person) i can give all four of my teammates +10 stun and +20 endurance which wont start to fade for an hour. it will take about three casting each, which means if i am speed 5 that will take about... 36 seconds minute to juice everyone up for an hour. thats not that hard to arrange. thats adding 20 cp worth of bonus to five guys... all for just 30 cp assuming its not in any framework. not too shabby. for a bit more, like say 36 instead of 30, the aided characteristics fade 5 cp per day, which means as long as everyone meets me once a day for 10 seconds each, they stay juiced all the time. i dont think thats too shabby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... Adding Self Only (-1/2) would help a little bit with the cost. Eh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... Um' date=' I don't think I'd go so far as to say it's "intended for use on other people" - there's nothing preventing you from using it on yourself too, unless it's so Limited. IMHO it would be more appropriate to say that it's intended for use on other people in addition to yourself.[/quote'] I would say there is a difference between Intended Use and Actual Use. But, yes I think AID is primarily Intended for use on others, while nothing prevents use on you. And while self use is a perfectly acceptable result - it is also an inneficient use of Power if you're primary concern is your stats. If your primary concern is other peoples stats, AID/Succor is the Power to look at. Just my opinion on the matter of course. Like I said, I see nothing wrong at all with using AID on yourself, but there are better methods to that particular goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... I generally disallow Characteristics Useable By/Against Others simply because what you're doing is Aiding them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... Aiding multiple Characteristics/Powers at once also eventually increases the point-effectiveness of the Power to be a net gain (in the short term). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhamin Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... I am in total agreement with those who say that Aid is best used when boosing multiple stats or multiple targets. Almost any use on a single stat/target is a waste of points. Problem is, all kinds of offical characters and powers are built in this way. In it's official appearences Aid is *often* misused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... I am in total agreement with those who say that Aid is best used when boosing multiple stats or multiple targets. Almost any use on a single stat/target is a waste of points. Problem is, all kinds of offical characters and powers are built in this way. In it's official appearences Aid is *often* misused. I'm not so sure that it is misused as much as poorly applied. There are a number of good reasons to use Aid rather than limited stats, just as there are many reasons to use limited stats rather than Aid. I fully agree with the idea above that Self only should be worth -1 for the specific example of Aid... It brings its utility level closer in line to buying Stats. In Heroic level games, Aid is often an excellent choice because it doesn't have any chance of running up against Normal Characteristic Maximums. Aid can also be extended to very long time spans. Aid can also boost things other than Stats. All in all, its quite useful, tho as I've said before, it got overfixed in the transition from 4th edition to 5th... in 4th Aid was one of the uberpowers. I can't think of a single 4th editon FH spellcaster I wrote up that didn't have at least one Aid spell. It was THAT good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... Looking over 5E HERO System in general, I find that there is precious little that is seriously in need of repair to make balanced/consistent. In most cases a relatively minor adjustment suffices, like increasing the Self Only Limitation for Aid. Of course this isn't the same as doing something differently from how the rules do it because we would like it better that way. Most of us have massive examples of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... Adding Self Only (-1/2) would help a little bit with the cost. Eh. As indicated elsewhere, Self Only is vastly underpirced as a limitation. If I can buy 1d6 Aid, and get +6 STR that fades in PS 12 and requires 2 attack actions for 7 points, but I can buy +6 STR for 6 points, something's wrong with the balance. Now, if we ad in NCM, Aid starts to look a bit better. Boosting multiple characteristics at the same time, and boosting others, not just myself, makes it a bit more rational. But then one has to ask - if the character has purchased +1d6 Aid, all stats (+2), fade per day (+1.5), self only (-1/2) for 30 points, won't he always have the benefits of enhanced characteristics worth 78 points (6 x 13 - PD and ED are halved, remember), so it's now equally unbalanced the other way? Sounds like the old D&D theory that Magic Users are frail and powerless at low levels, and overshadow all others at high levels, and that makes them balanced since the average is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... As indicated elsewhere' date=' Self Only is vastly underpirced as a limitation. If I can buy 1d6 Aid, and get +6 STR that fades in PS 12 and requires 2 attack actions for 7 points, but I can buy +6 STR for 6 points, something's wrong with the balance.[/quote'] There is also the application of Frameworks, Multipower and VPP specifically. With the Aid, you can switch your points around after using it and the extra STR doesn't fade instantly, but the Limited STR would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... Though I do agree that point effectiveness (or rather, lack thereof) can be disturbing at times, Aid might simply be the right way to do it despite that. If it better matches the effect you are striving for, use it! Remember the Meta-Rules. We buy CSLs instead of incredibly Limited Dex, after all (or at least most of us do ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... Though I do agree that point effectiveness (or rather' date=' lack thereof) can be disturbing at times, Aid might simply be the right way to do it despite that. If it better matches the effect you are striving for, use it! Remember the Meta-Rules. We buy CSLs instead of incredibly Limited Dex, after all (or at least most of us do ).[/quote'] That metarule needs a corollary that overpriced approaches (like EB, AVLD Mental Defense, Invisible, Based on ECV instead of Ego Blast) are also not correct builds...eg. "Point cost should be commensurate with value" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tesuji Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... That metarule needs a corollary that overpriced approaches (like EB' date=' AVLD Mental Defense, Invisible, Based on ECV instead of Ego Blast) are also not correct builds...eg. "Point cost should be commensurate with value"[/quote'] or perhaps, "point cost should be commensurate with value" should actually BE the metarule in the first place. i cannotu count the times i have seen "but its built right" be an excuse for trying to ignore the obvious error in final cost compaison with existing traits. I always tell my players... the final step is not getting the Cp total, but comparing that to others to see if it fits in sync with similarly effective powers. "if it looks too good for what you pay, thats a problem, not a success." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radioKAOS Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... Meta Rule #6 If two powers (or other game elements) are equally valid ways to create a particular ability, you must use the more expensive of the two. People seem to ignore what I think is the operative qualifier of this meta-rule. We are speaking about two equally valid ways to create a particular ability. Of course validity is determined by the GM, or by group consensus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digital_lorax Posted July 3, 2006 Report Share Posted July 3, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... if it looks too good for what you pay' date=' thats a problem, not a success.[/quote'] So true, so repped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted July 4, 2006 Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... Speaking as the local d20 expert on the subject of AID. Some things to bear in mind. In HERO, you can always improve a stat directly. d20 gives you no such option, so you must rely on the AID lines of spells to boost people in combat. Also, bear in mind that in d20, AID is a much more limited effect, because it isn't AID. Specifically, it's HASTE, or BEAR'S ENDURANCE or some other such power. If you consider AID the same way you consider DRAIN, it starts to make a little more sense. HASTE counters & cancels SLOW. If I put together a DRAIN, multiple effects (4x, +1, running, swimming, leaping & DEX simultaneously) I can just as reasonably put together an AID that has the same effect - whether we call it Expeditious Retreat or whatever. Also, one of the builds I saw in ... Ult. Speedster, I think (or was it Dark Champions?) was a power built 0 END, Uncontrolled, ended after X time, which was an interesting side-step to the usual duration issues. But I digress (again... and again...). In HERO, I would agree that making something 'Self Only' is more reasonable at -1; I'm considering moving the TUV restriction on Extra Speed (only in a vehicle) from -1/2 to -1 for that same reason. But there's far more to AID than just STR, or DEX. It's the multiple power effect, it's the various special effects that it can do which make it so absurd. Assume, for the moment, that in order to bump up a KA DC, you need to double it (per 5ER standard rules, a DC increase by dumping CVs is a 2:1 ratio on killing attacks). With that in mind, would AID have the same ruling? If it did, would that mean every 10 points of AID is a DC on whatever killing attack you have? So your 10d6 AID, Self Only, One Shot Only (-2), and so on can be an EXTREMELY cost effective way of delivering "one great shot." Just some thoughts on the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... Another point: in games with Normal Characteristic Maxima, the GM may require you to pay double (or IOW halve the effectiveness) for even Limited Characteristics that go over the NCM, but may not do the same for an Aid because of its very temporary nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Re: Why buy aid.... Exactly right. Also, in d20, as I (thought) I said, stats are set. You don't have that in HERO, although if the campaign sets NCM at 15 instead of 20, AID becomes even more important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.