FH without Stun

[swobeas]

Re: FH without Stun

 

Thanx for all the input and especially the die rollers guys

[CourtFool]

Just some thoughts

 

I have been giving this some thought. I have tried to think of something that will not require a lot of additional mechanics or calculations. I am sure the bonuses and penalties would need to be adjusted to make this work. This is really a rough draft.

 

Whenever you are successfully hit by an attack you must make a CON roll. -1 per 3 DCs of the attack, +1 per 2 points of PD or ED, -1 for chest hit, -3 for head shot.

 

If you fail by 2, you are knocked down and CON stunned. If you fail by 1, you are CON stunned. If you fail by more, you are knocked unconscious.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Just some thoughts

 

I have been giving this some thought. I have tried to think of something that will not require a lot of additional mechanics or calculations. I am sure the bonuses and penalties would need to be adjusted to make this work. This is really a rough draft.

 

Whenever you are successfully hit by an attack you must make a CON roll. -1 per 3 DCs of the attack, +1 per 2 points of PD or ED, -1 for chest hit, -3 for head shot.

 

If you fail by 2, you are knocked down and CON stunned. If you fail by 1, you are CON stunned. If you fail by more, you are knocked unconscious.

 

While this might be a viable variant mechanic, I don't think it would ultimately be easier or make combat significantly quicker. It reminds me vaguely of the Mutants & Masterminds system.

[CourtFool]

M&m

 

While this might be a viable variant mechanic' date=' I don't think it would ultimately be easier or make combat significantly quicker. It reminds me vaguely of the Mutants & Masterminds system.[/quote']

 

I completely agree with you. I did get the idea from browsing M&M. I was just trying to offer a variant mechanic instead of staying on the nay-sayer bandwagon.

[Rapier]

Re: FH without Stun

 

Oh another thing to mention is to make all the guards the same (or with one or two variants). They all go on the same Phase and the same DEX and have the same OCV/DCV, etc. This way you don't need to keep referencing sheets to figure out if they get hit or something.

 

Mooks, Guards, Henchpersons, etc:

- don't take Recoveries.

- don't use combat maneuvers.

- don't necessarily stick around to get beat on (RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!).

- don't take advantage of team tactics.

- only use straightforward smash, grab, shoot attacks (no trying to blow someone into a bus using KB).

 

Where things can get slow is when you have non-mook combat. Say, Hero group vs Villain group. Villainous groups will use maneuvers and shoot you into buses using KB, will take Recoveries and especially will use team tactics and maneuvers.

 

In these cases you need to know the sheets real well. You need to be thoroughly prepared and you need to know what those villains are going to do quickly. These combats will be slower, but they will also be more challenging (and one would hope) more fun.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: FH without Stun

 

It's been recommended to me quite recently (by Champsguy over on ngd.com) that you write down not the OCV/DCV, but what each character needs to roll under to hit the mooks, and what the mooks need to roll under to hit a party member. It takes a little time before the game to sort out and write down, but it makes things a LOT faster when you're running combat.

[Rapier]

Re: FH without Stun

 

It's been recommended to me quite recently (by Champsguy over on ngd.com) that you write down not the OCV/DCV' date=' but what each character needs to roll under to hit the mooks, and what the mooks need to roll under to hit a party member. It takes a little time before the game to sort out and write down, but it makes things a LOT faster when you're running combat.[/quote']

 

I've VERY recently switched back to a Face-to-Face game (from IRC). We've been on IRC for about 12 years now, so I've had all these die roller apps and things. Our first F-to-F game I couldn't remember how calculate to hit...and I count dice pretty slow.

 

It is MUCH easier to use the 11 + OCV - ROLL = DCV Hit. I've got notes on sheets (19 - Roll) for help. This has the added benefit that you can scream over the crowd at the GM "I HIT DCV 8" and he tells you whether you hit or not. I like this method a lot better than telling players "He has a DCV of 5, let me know if you hit."

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: FH without Stun

 

*shrugs*

 

I can't do math in my head very quickly, nor can my players. It takes out a step to know, by looking at the die roll and the die roll only, whether it's a hit. I don't need to tell my players what DCV they're going for, either; I just glance at their dice and tell them they hit, or didn't.

 

As a newbie GM, it's a great help, and it helps to speed up combat, which is something I'm really terrible at.

[swobeas]

Re: FH without Stun

 

 

It is MUCH easier to use the 11 + OCV - ROLL = DCV Hit. I've got notes on sheets (19 - Roll) for help. This has the added benefit that you can scream over the crowd at the GM "I HIT DCV 8" and he tells you whether you hit or not. I like this method a lot better than telling players "He has a DCV of 5, let me know if you hit."

 

One thing the d&d player in my old group proposed and the whole group rapidly agreed on is to :

roll + OCV must be DCV + 10 or higher to hit.

 

If you have OCV 6 and roll an 11 for example, then you hit an 17 and call thisd out to the GM. the GM simply substracts 10 from the 17 and knows the the character would hit up to 7 DCV

[Thia Halmades]

Re: FH without Stun

 

I'm fairly certain there's been some sort of misunderstanding here. On the OP's part.

 

Dude, in Fantasy Hero, there is in fact a section which details, at length, how & when to remove STUN from the campaign - but only as it applies to dealing with mooks and other underlings. Never, once, does the book suggest you not use STUN for your heroes.

 

I played a lot of d20, and I'm still getting into HERO (although it's finally becoming faster and clearer). So, first, most of what everyone else has said is correct - I don't disagree with my peers without good reason. They are correct - you MUST use STUN.

 

Hero simulates dramatic combat. As in, what you see in film. In order to do this, people have to be able to be knocked around without getting killed - or knocked out and then 'helped up' at the end of a fight. They'll lose BODY over the course of the adventure, odds are not all at once.

 

Second. Armor in HERO is money - but armor only makes sense once STUN is involved. I have a PC Tank with multiple defenses running at 16 PD/16 ED/50% Damage Red. I can barely dent him with conventional weaponry (1d6 1/2 + 1d6 STUN). On average, I'll do 5 BODY, 15 STUN, and he won't even notice. Not good. But he also wants his tank concept to work, which I appreciate. Everyone argues over it, which is also, oddly, good because we all care.

 

But what you seem to be missing - or misinterpreting - is that STUN is a definitvely heroic trait. It allows you to take a lot of punishment and get back up, or be hit with a big, powerful attack, get thrown into the crates, then pull yourself to your feet after spending a round in recovery. Not using the STUN rules will really destroy (not alter, not 'subtly change,' destroy) the feel of the system and what it's built to do.

 

So while I'm all about saying "It's your game, play it how you like" I think you haven't grasped all of the concepts behind it yet, hence the confusion. If you want to improve the lethality of the game, I suggest the following:

 

Don't allow any DEF higher than Plate Mail (8).

Review any and all DEF spells - DEF in Hero is CHEAP, and buying a big forcefield is ALSO cheap. Note the cap on DEF.

Then, build villains with +CSLs to Damage Classes in their chosen weapons.

 

Lethality will jump. People WILL take BODY from direct hits. Remember: BODY IS NOT HIT POINTS. It's BODY. There are no Hit Points in HERO. It's BODY and STUN, and ne'er the twain shall meet. This is a critical point to grasp, which you seem to have by passed.

 

In other words: I can't help you with the decision you've made, I can only say, from over here, it's a bad decision that seems to have come from an imperfect understanding of the rules and having not played the game.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: FH without Stun

 

One thing the d&d player in my old group proposed and the whole group rapidly agreed on is to :

roll + OCV must be DCV + 10 or higher to hit.

 

If you have OCV 6 and roll an 11 for example, then you hit an 17 and call thisd out to the GM. the GM simply substracts 10 from the 17 and knows the the character would hit up to 7 DCV

 

Well...that wouldn't quite work.

 

6+11=17-10=hits DCV 7

6+12=18-10=hits DCV 8

6+13=19-10=hits DCV 9

 

An 11 from OCV 6 would hit DCV 6, not 7. Then it proceeds to make it so that the HIGHER you roll, the better DCV you hit.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FH without Stun

 

Well...that wouldn't quite work.

 

6+11=17-10=hits DCV 7

 

Yes. And in the standard model, a 6 OCV needs 10- to hit DCV 7. Rolling 10 or less happens 50% of the time. Rolling 11 or or happens 50% of the time.

 

6+12=18-10=hits DCV 8

 

And under the standard system, OCV 6 must roll 9-, which happens 37.5% of the time. Under this system, however, he needs 12+ which happens 37.5% of the time (as 11- is 62.5% of the rolls).

 

6+13=19-10=hits DCV 9

 

The standard system would require an 8-, which happens 25.93% of the time. A 12- happens 74.07% of the time, so a 13+ is a 25.93% chance of hitting.

 

An 11 from OCV 6 would hit DCV 6' date=' not 7. Then it proceeds to make it so that the HIGHER you roll, the better DCV you hit. [/quote']

 

The revision (which I don't use either) simply converts the "roll low" system to a "roll high" system, with the same likelihood of success. If the group wants high rolls to succeed, this approach works fine, without changing the probabilities of success and failure.

[swobeas]

Re: FH without Stun

 

Well...that wouldn't quite work.

 

6+11=17-10=hits DCV 7

6+12=18-10=hits DCV 8

6+13=19-10=hits DCV 9

 

An 11 from OCV 6 would hit DCV 6, not 7. Then it proceeds to make it so that the HIGHER you roll, the better DCV you hit.

 

 

yep you are perfectly right, the higher the roll, the better the attack. It is easier for most humanoid brains (as mine is , at leadt as far as I can guess about ma own brain with itself ) to do the same simple mathematical operation ( here add numers up) 2 times then do one operation and then a different one ( as you fist add up the rolled dices and then go on thje standard way in Hero System)

 

Some people find it crucial to roll in combat low because they have to roll low at skill rolls also. I personally prefer the easier way

[swobeas]

Re: FH without Stun

 

 

But what you seem to be missing - or misinterpreting - is that STUN is a definitvely heroic trait. It allows you to take a lot of punishment and get back up, or be hit with a big, powerful attack, get thrown into the crates, then pull yourself to your feet after spending a round in recovery. Not using the STUN rules will really destroy (not alter, not 'subtly change,' destroy) the feel of the system and what it's built to do.

 

So while I'm all about saying "It's your game, play it how you like" I think you haven't grasped all of the concepts behind it yet, hence the confusion. If you want to improve the lethality of the game, I suggest the following:

 

Don't allow any DEF higher than Plate Mail (8).

Review any and all DEF spells - DEF in Hero is CHEAP, and buying a big forcefield is ALSO cheap. Note the cap on DEF.

Then, build villains with +CSLs to Damage Classes in their chosen weapons.

 

Lethality will jump. People WILL take BODY from direct hits. Remember: BODY IS NOT HIT POINTS. It's BODY. There are no Hit Points in HERO. It's BODY and STUN, and ne'er the twain shall meet. This is a critical point to grasp, which you seem to have by passed.

 

In other words: I can't help you with the decision you've made, I can only say, from over here, it's a bad decision that seems to have come from an imperfect understanding of the rules and having not played the game.

 

I find it quite interresting on how you (try to ) judge if someone else understood something right or not. Maybe you should make sure for yourself if you understood everything right...

And if you are not shure, try to be a little bit more äh let's say diplomatic ok?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FH without Stun

 

Some people find it crucial to roll in combat low because they have to roll low at skill rolls also. I personally prefer the easier way

 

I don't find either easier. I do find the fact that sometimes you roll high, and other times low, provides a good reason to avoid biased dice

[Thia Halmades]

Re: FH without Stun

 

Depends, which part of my post was undiplomatic? The part where I said it was a bad decision, or the part where I said you didn't understand something? Having read through the thread, those are my conclusions. In my opinion: You don't understand how STUN works (your opening post said it's a set decision and will NOT change, which is fine, s'your game) and second, having played d20 (aka D&D) for the better part of my life, I'm fairly well familiar with the hit point system and how it operates, and why HERO is fundamentally different in its use of STUN & BODY.

 

You then went on to say you weren't counting END, either, which is another major element of how HERO works, so... yeah, I'm going to say those are poor decisions and really undermine the mechanics of the entire system. Why buy an 8d6 EB if you're only going to count Normal Body? And, better, if you have Resistant Armor, it won't matter anyway! So I'm at a loss as to precisely how your changes improve the game in any way, shape, or form.

 

I love Hero, and I want people to play Hero, and I personally don't give a whit HOW they play Hero, but if you're going to ask for my opinion (i.e., you post to the board and I tell you what I think) don't criticize it based on an imperfect understanding of why I said what I did. It's... ah... undiplomatic.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: FH without Stun

 

Hugh: Well, that, or my players simply have two sets. One they insist 'roll low' for skills & hit rolls, and the other 'rolls high' for damage. I haven't seen a big difference yet, but hey.

[prestidigitator]

Re: FH without Stun

 

I've used a roll-high method that works really smoothly.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=871801#post871801

[Alibear]

Re: FH without Stun

 

Having read through the thread' date=' those are my conclusions. In my opinion: You don't understand how STUN works [/quote']

 

 

Your opinion is wrong.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: FH without Stun

 

I'll make a note of that, Ali. But thanks very much for showing me the error of my ways.

[Cosmosemeritus]

Re: FH without Stun

 

Hi!

 

How do you handle playing FH without using the Stun rules?

I don't. I wouldn't recomend it either. Stun is one of the major reasons to play Hero; Fantasy or otherwise.

 

I want to do get rid of stun cause it slows fights down, especially with unexperienced players. The decision is fixed.

I disagree with your reasoning, but I'll still try to help.

But now I ask myself how to handle:

- BODY < 0 Do characters die reaching 0 BODY, or do they keep going until they reach their negative BODY value?

In theory, the characters would keep going until they reach their negative body value.

- if the are below 0 BODY do they get handicaps? (like 1/2 OCV, DCV and movement for example?)

- what about hits causing a lot of damage at once (like when using Stun the victim is stunned because getting too much stun with one hit?)

Both of these can be done using the Impairing/Disabling options in the 5ER. And of course there is always the standard rule that a limb can only take 1/3 of a character's body in one hit before getting lopped clean off.

Would CON become a 1 pt characteristic then? Or could I use CON rolls every round for a character below 0 BODY, in order to keep going...

 

thanks for input!

 

Lets see... with Stun every 10 CP of Con gets you 5 Con, 1 ED, 1 Rec, 10 End, and 2(.5) Stun, which is 10 points of secondary characteristics. Without stun, that only drops to 8, which IMO isn't enough to lower the cost of Con. But if you are also not using Endurance and Recovery, then Con is barely even worth a single CP per point. IMO

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FH without Stun

 

Lets see... with Stun every 10 CP of Con gets you 5 Con' date=' 1 ED, 1 Rec, 10 End, and 2(.5) Stun, which is 10 points of secondary characteristics. Without stun, that only drops to 8, which IMO isn't enough to lower the cost of Con. But if you are also not using Endurance and Recovery, then Con is barely even worth a single CP per point. IMO[/quote']

 

Automotons don't get a break on the rpice of CON when they don't take STUN, so why should PC's?

 

On the other hand, if the game lacks STUN and END, I can probably live with a reduced REC (and get BODY back from healing spells). I'm not going to get Stunned. So the only thing CON gets me is +1 ED for a 10 character point investment, and a +1 to CON rolls (yeah, those are common!).

 

I think this would lead to a bias to sell back CON to the full extent allowed, and to sell back REC (since I assume you won't let me sell back STUN if you don't use it).

 

Actually, what you should do if you're playing without STUN is cut the defense of Armor to 1/3 and charge triple for defenses. That's what automotons who Take no Stun have to pay.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: FH without Stun

 

yep you are perfectly right' date=' the higher the roll, the better the attack. [/quote']

 

Ah, that's fine then if you've switched which end of the spectrum you're aiming for. Wasn't clear in the original post.

[Harakani]

Re: FH without Stun

 

First, effectively everyone has the power: "Takes no Stun" from the Automoton rules.

 

I'm looking at running an Automoton game at the moment, so this intrigues me

Remember all defences are /3 with this power.

Occurs to me you may want to use the 45 point version, whereby every attack that does BODY causes a reduction (I'd make it a simple reduction like "-1 to all skills and CVs"... a sort of negative overall level)

[Old Man]

Re: FH without Stun

 

I think this would lead to a bias to sell back CON to the full extent allowed, and to sell back REC (since I assume you won't let me sell back STUN if you don't use it).

 

Ooh, imagine the cheese you can bake with that.

I'd sell back most of my CON (since it doesn't matter at all) and buy oh...18 points of STR YAY!

 

Talk about borken.