FH without Stun

[swobeas]

Hi!

 

How do you handle playing FH without using the Stun rules?

I want to do get rid of stun cause it slows fights down, especially with unexperienced players. The decision is fixed. But now I ask myself how to handle:

- BODY < 0 Do characters die reaching 0 BODY, or do they keep going until they reach their negative BODY value?

- if the are below 0 BODY do they get handicaps? (like 1/2 OCV, DCV and movement for example?)

- what about hits causing a lot of damage at once (like when using Stun the victim is stunned because getting too much stun with one hit?)

 

Would CON become a 1 pt characteristic then? Or could I use CON rolls every round for a character below 0 BODY, in order to keep going...

 

thanks for input!

[Rapier]

Re: FH without Stun

 

Wow.

 

I would suggest going back to DnD. The STUN/BODY split is such an integral part of Hero that I think you may really want to play something else. Hero has been alive for so long that there are SO many dependencies that it is difficult to make changes to the underlying foundation (eg like getting rid of the SPD Chart).

 

I would make as few changes as possible if I were you. I would urge you not to do this, but hey, it's your game. Especially because there will be a number of attacks where "YOU HIT...and nothing happens, you dent his armour some" even more so than already happens now. There are MANY more easier ways to speed combat along. Most namely, there are a few websites out there that will preroll long lists of numbers and seperate out STUN and BODY.

 

--> Characters still go to -BODY before death.

--> There really shouldn't be any new handicaps to -BODY.

--> Perhaps -1 CV per 20% of total BODY inflicted by an attack (eg 10 BODY, -1 CV per 2 BODY inflicted).

--> Leave the price of CON alone.

 

Again, I urge you to rethink this. By removing STUN you have invalidated END use (there is no consequence to running out), NNDs (no more gas attacks), EGO Attacks (no more mind flayers, etc), a number of disads and limitations, you have added a level of complexity.

 

You are trying to remove an aspect of the game and then replace that aspect with a similar concept.

 

Perhaps:

 

1) Roll dice for BODY and Standard Effect STUN.

2) Roll dice for BODY and Standard Effect STUN +2 STUN for every '6' rolled.

3) Pregen dice rolls.

4) Standard Effect both BODY and STUN.

[Fitz]

Re: FH without Stun

 

I run my campaign without Stunning, but still with STUN -- when a character goes past 0 STUN they're knocked out, but they don't spend all their time trying to recover from being CON-Stunned.

 

It's not ideal; it definitely changes the way combats go and it invalidates a lot of useful tactics. I think it encourages a tendency towards the D&D charge-and-suck-it-up and stand-and-slug-and-suck-it-up tactics, but it does simplify combat a bit.

 

Personally, I'd like to bring Stunning back into play, but I don't know how my players are likely to react since they've become used to not having to worry about it now.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: FH without Stun

 

Hi!

 

How do you handle playing FH without using the Stun rules?

I want to do get rid of stun cause it slows fights down, especially with unexperienced players. The decision is fixed. But now I ask myself how to handle:

- BODY < 0 Do characters die reaching 0 BODY, or do they keep going until they reach their negative BODY value?

- if the are below 0 BODY do they get handicaps? (like 1/2 OCV, DCV and movement for example?)

- what about hits causing a lot of damage at once (like when using Stun the victim is stunned because getting too much stun with one hit?)

 

Would CON become a 1 pt characteristic then? Or could I use CON rolls every round for a character below 0 BODY, in order to keep going...

 

thanks for input!

 

Have them take a -1 to OCV/DCV and any skill rolls their next action for every point of Body they take. They can avoid this by taking a special talent called High Pain Threshold. Once they're at zero Body, they take Con rolls to see if they can stay up. Oh, wait, that's GURPS.

 

I too am a little confused...I don't really see how Stun is any more complicated than the proposed "fixes", and getting rid of it causes more problems. What do you do when someone WANTS to knock someone out? Beat them down to negative body and hope they survive? What about magical sleep effects? Removing a workable mechanic and then trying to recreate something which will get you similar outcomes seems...odd.

 

Good luck.

[swobeas]

Re: FH without Stun

 

I can follow your thoughts but still wonder about the message behind it.

I read about removing stun as one way to speed up combat in the FH-book and havn't thought so far, that removing it would change that much.

 

As for someone willingly knocking someone else out, I would use stun, but not in the standard "kill the minions" fight.

I want the combat to be quicker and deadlier, as with stun characters end up knocked out but not killed. This is a core concept of Hero imo and that's fine for most FH campaigns. But I want to play a Warhammer Campaign, including fate points and there should be chance to use these...

[sbarron]

Re: FH without Stun

 

Ok, I'll bite. There is no "official" way to not use stun. However, you could adopt some of the suggestions above to get things going.

 

I'd also suggest increasing the damage done for all weapons. With no threat of knockout (which is what happens rather than death to most armored characters in FH), ensuring that attacks that do hit actually do BODY damage is important. Probably 1 or 2 damage classes for each weapon would be enough without overdoing it.

 

This will better simulate the leathality of Warhammer, and speed combat as well. Hope this helps.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: FH without Stun

 

Well, what do you find the main perpetrators are? If it's killing attack STUN mods, make them all 2x, ignore the die roll. If it's that you've got players running around with 6pts of Combat Luck in 8def armor getting attacked by 2d6 KAs, might want to limit the def available and/or increase the damage done, include more AP attacks, etc. If you find players don't like getting one-shot KOd (like by powerful normal die attacks, good stun mod) early on and then sitting out the rest of the fight, one of the solutions could be to give the PC's MORE Stun. An extra 30 Stun on a FH character will go a long ways to reducing the one-punch effect.

 

For "kill the minions" - yeah, disregarding tracking individual STUN pts probably good. Make them "one hit, two hit" type minions, or only track body, but if a huge STUN attack comes along, go ahead and drop them. But worrying about the individual STUN pts and recoveries of 40 goblins is ridiculous.

 

And if EVERYONE gets knocked out, vs most Fantasy opponents...they're not living long anyways. Having some PCs get knocked out and their fellows having to fight on without them, then rousing and tending to them after a hard-fought victory...what's so bad about that?

[swobeas]

Re: FH without Stun

 

 

I'd also suggest increasing the damage done for all weapons. With no threat of knockout (which is what happens rather than death to most armored characters in FH), ensuring that attacks that do hit actually do BODY damage is important. Probably 1 or 2 damage classes for each weapon would be enough without overdoing it.

 

 

I think with adding additional damage classes characters end up stunned faster but not necessarily (I hope this word is correct english ) dead.

 

But I have to admit that it would definately speed up combat ;-)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FH without Stun

 

Wow.

 

I would suggest going back to DnD.

 

Agreed and repp'ed. Many spells, for example, incapacitate rather than kill. D&D has rules for individual spells. Hero has game mechanics, so removal of STUN removes many of these spell effects.

 

Especially because there will be a number of attacks where "YOU HIT...and nothing happens' date=' you dent his armour some" even more so than already happens now.[/quote']

 

This will make more powerful opponents virtually invulnerable. Even Plate Mail (8 rDEF) becomes very difficult to hurt. It will also mean a lot more character generation, since the only way to take a character (PC or not) down is to reduce him to the point he's bleeding to death.

 

I also find "BOD only" poor at emulating the source material. How often is Conan (pick any other fantasy character) knocked out, but not killed? He seems fine after, so I don't think he was at negative Body, and in imminent danger of death.

 

How do you run a barroom brawl without Stun? You either keep fighting forever, or your opponent is fatally crushed.

 

If you want to increase lethality, I agree with sbarron - enhance the DC of weapons, and of spells for that matter, and reduce defenses, especially resistant defenses. Oh, and make sure there's a ready supply of blank character sheets around...

[sbarron]

Re: FH without Stun

 

I think with adding additional damage classes characters end up stunned faster but not necessarily (I hope this word is correct english ) dead.

 

But I have to admit that it would definately speed up combat ;-)

Ah. I meant that if you intend to not use STUN, then you should up the damage classes. Clearly doing more damage while using STUN is a recipe for knockouts early and often.

 

By the way, as a German, can you explain the German fascination with David Hasslehoff? I've always been puzzled...

[swobeas]

Re: FH without Stun

 

By the way' date=' as a German, can you explain the German fascination with David Hasslehoff? I've always been puzzled... [/quote']

 

fascinaion with David?? As a early teenager I was fascinated by his female life-guard-underlings but not realy with himself. Maybe you should ask a german woman than

[Old Man]

Re: FH without Stun

 

Honestly, I don't understand what is so hard to understand.

 

STR 15 guy punches somebody, roll 3d6. The number that comes up is how much STUN damage is done. Counting BODY is usually the harder bit.

 

I have found that there are many players that like the hit location table for combat. it's an extra roll but tells you how much STUN is done by Killing Attacks, and adds a bit of semi-reality to fights.

[Kabluey]

Re: FH without Stun

 

First, I agree with what everyone else has said: removing STUN really can have a major impact. I would recommend against it.

 

I want the combat to be quicker and deadlier' date=' as with stun characters end up knocked out but not killed. This is a core concept of Hero imo and that's fine for most FH campaigns. But I want to play a Warhammer Campaign, including fate points and there should be chance to use these...[/quote']

 

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean here, but my interpretation of this is that you'd prefer characters to die when knocked out instead of just being knocked out. If this is the case, then you might just do what I sort of do: I have an informal house rule (informal because it only applies to me as the GM instead of the players) that when an insignificant minion/monster/npc hits -10 STUN or more, they're dead regardless of their BODY. The players don't follow this (I don't even think they know I do this, though they may have come to realize it), and I don't do it for significant monsters or npc's or if I know they're specifically trying not to kill the opponent. You could do a variation of this. Just saying -10 STUN = death for everyone would be too drastic IMO, but you could say that 0 BODY and -10 STUN = death or some variation on this. That would increase the death rate without drastically effecting the balance with other game elements, I would guess.

 

As to the idea of speeding up the game, there are so many more ways to do so that are better than removing STUN, IMO. For me, the best way was just to use a computer to roll dice. If this is feasible, I'd really recommend doing so. (If the issue is simply that you or the players just like rolling the dice, I'd suggest giving it a shot for one session. I say this because I have several players in my group like this, but once I started using the dice roller, it didn't take long before they voluntarily had me rolling their dice, when they saw how much time it saved.) But even if this isn't an option, there are a plethora of other ways to speed up combat.

[Rapier]

Re: FH without Stun

 

There is a website out there...its real nice and I can't seem to find my link.

 

It lets you specify the die type and number (15d6) and asks you how many rolls you want and spits it out onto a page. I'm looking for it and can't seem to find it.

 

Help?

[prestidigitator]

Re: FH without Stun

 

I don't like the idea of getting rid of Stun. For one thing, getting rid of Stun makes people in plate mail total gods. OTOH I'm the first to get rid of detailed End tracking when it becomes cumbersome (I often don't track End at all when I have a group of new players).

[Alibear]

Re: FH without Stun

 

Servus Andi,

 

Have I got this right? You want to speed up combat, especially for newbies?

 

Can you explain what an actual combat in your campaign looks like?

 

 

Anywhore, I'll talk about things that might speed up combat for you.

 

1. Normal foes: gaurds, goblins, grunts and minor NPCs don't block or dodge, they die instead. Keep combat maneuvers for your end of scenario bad guy.

 

2. Keep armour to a minimum for the the grunts, nothing prolongs combat like armour.

 

3. If the player hits the bad guy with a decent shot the bad guy drops. End of scenario for him. Nothing is worse than hitting a baddy for 10 body and the thief finishing him off with a 2 body hit to the foot.

 

4. Don't worry about book-keeping for the bad guys too much. Forget end and stun totals, as I said in 3, one good hit should suffice.

 

5. Don't use too many comabt encounters before the scenario finale if you can help it. Instead of 2 fights before the big bad guy encounter have one verbal or intellectual encounter and only one small scrap.

 

6. Try to get your PCs scared of combat that way they won't initiate fights for no reason.

 

7. Normal bad guys have 11 dex and two speed when I GM.

[prestidigitator]

Re: FH without Stun

 

Well, just for NPCs I have now and then simply removed a point of Body for each 3 Stun done to them (I'll base the damage done by a particular attack on the maximum of the Body or the Stun/3 done). Then when they reach negative Body I assume they are either Knocked Out or Dying depending on my gut feel of whether they have really taken more damage due to Stun or Body. When I choose to do it, it usually doesn't even really matter which state they are in; either way they are going to be out of the combat, semi-coherent, might be kept alive with some Paramedics, etc. Obviously this is not for significant villains.

[swobeas]

Re: FH without Stun

 

I am not keeping track of end also.

so figther's can fight and sorcerers can cast spells as long as they want to, but the magic users have to be afraid of nasty side effects every time they cast a spell.

 

Is there a programm that rolls the attack + hit location and then gives the amount of damage done??

This would be really nice for me, if the programm would roll + calculate normal + killing damage and I would decide if the roll did actually hit.

 

Any ideas?

 

Just for not being misunderstood: I personally like stun pretty much. IMO it is one of the best elements in combat with the Hero System. I am just lokking to deal with combat faster.

 

AND finally: Hi Alister, nice to äh read you :-)) The points you mention feel pretty much like the Japanese campaign back there ;-) thanx for tips

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: FH without Stun

 

The Die Roller on HeroCentral is wonderful, can handle killing attacks, explosions, etc. I don't know if there's an off-line program that does it as well available.

[DEFCON Clown]

Re: FH without Stun

 

You can find a pretty good die roller program there.

 

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/theala/hero.html

[bigdamnhero]

Re: FH without Stun

 

I read about removing stun as one way to speed up combat in the FH-book and havn't thought so far' date=' that removing it would change that much.[/quote']

Huh. I didn't remember reading this in FH, but sure enough there it is on p161. (The book calls it a "drastic" option, intended for players who don't like STUN and want to have characters die instead of getting knocked out. It does suggest that you keep STUN for EGO attacks, NNDs and the like, just ignore it for "typical" combat attacks.)

 

Personally, I'd say drastic is an understatement. If your goal is to speed up combat, there are plenty of better way to do so. If you run a search for threads on speeding up combat, you should come up with several.

 

On the other hand, if you what you want is more lethality I suggest using the Hit Location chart; it allows you to hit them where their armor isn't. Using Hit locations slows things down a little bit, but not much and IMO it captures the fantasy genre better.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FH without Stun

 

Just for not being misunderstood: I personally like stun pretty much. IMO it is one of the best elements in combat with the Hero System. I am just lokking to deal with combat faster.

 

What are you finding slows it down? It's tough to suggest solutions if you don't know the problem.

 

I find one means of making combat go faster is the 5 second rule. When your action comes up, if you don't know what your character wants to do within 5 seconds, he's too hesitant and misses that phase. Nothing slows combat down quite so much as players who have to analyze every possible option in excruciating detail, counting hexes and measuring range modifiers, before finally selecting an action (and then backtracking to choose another commonly). Your character has about 3-4 seconds to make a decision and implement it - you don't have the option of a meticulous analysis of every minor nuance of the field of combat.

[Kabluey]

Re: FH without Stun

 

Is there a programm that rolls the attack + hit location and then gives the amount of damage done??

 

Here ya go [ATTACH]22341[/ATTACH].

 

This is the program I wrote and use. It uses a similar dice syntax as Simon's Javascript page, but has a number of enhancements, specifically in this case that it does roll hit locations. It's a Java program, so you'll need Java 1.5+ to use it.

 

Take a look. If it does what you need, cool. If you have any problems, comments, or suggestions, feel free to let me know.

[CourtFool]

Everyone is an Automotan

 

STUN is slowing down combat? I would think that, in a lot of ways, STUN speeds combat.

 

CON stunned takes a combatant out of the fight for a phase. That speeds things up in that you do not have to wait to see what they are doing (rolling to hit, moving around, ect.) All they can do is recover. They make nice targets too.

 

It is much easier to bring someone down to 0 STUN than 0 BODY, especially with resistant armor. Once unconscious, the combatant is out of the fight. Nothing speeds up combat like eliminating a combatant.

 

I think those two factors would speed combat up and make it fairly lethal in that you can be taken out of combat and left very vulnerable without ever taking a single pip.

[MordeanGrey]

Re: FH without Stun

 

I'd suggest using the one-hit, or two-hit-to-kill (or otherwise remove from combat) method for dealing with lesser minions.

 

I generally have a separate combat sheet listing the minor bad guys (the lesser orcs/goblins or whatever) separately from any of the individual monsters/enemies. When PCs hit a lesser minion I put either a single slash "/" or an "X" through the creature hit. If it's a solid hit and does a lot of body, that generally finishes that guy and results in an "X." If the PC only does 2 body to the minion's leg or something, he only gets a "/." That means it will take one more hit to put him out of combat. (i.e.--goblin #1 gets hit hard in the chest with an axe resulting in an "X" which puts him out of the fight.)

 

This makes it easy to keep track of the lesser enemies in combat and keeps the GM from constantly figuring stun and body versus armor and hit locations, etc.