Changing clothes takes ONE PHASE!?

[Yamo]

That's six seconds for an average person, 3-4 for a highly-combat trained "normal" like a martial artist or policeman.

 

Huh?

 

Does this seem a little silly to anyone else? I know it's just a game, but this should be one or two Turns minimally!

[BobGreenwade]

I think it may help if you consider that "per garment."

[Fitz]

No, really, six seconds is feasible. I swear I've dressed that fast when I was late for work.

[Hitchhiker]

Depends on the season too, I think. In winter, for example, you wear approximately 6 - 10 pieces of clothing, while during warmer times only 2 - 6. According to this, you may need longer or shorter times to change clothes.

 

One or two turns sound good, but why don't you take a look at the DEX and Speed of your character(s) and give a bonus, if necessary.

 

Or like Bob said, piece per piece.

[Talon]

It's a holdover from the Champions days -- Clark Kent starts to open his shirt, next thing he's fully changed into Superman. Probably happened in other comics that I didn't read.

 

In Champions, it keeps Secret ID people from being screwed over -- nothing sucks worse than to miss a fight because you are changing clothes. If I wanted to use a more realistic time, I might even give such characters a Physical Limitation, since it's almost certain to hamper them during the campaign.

 

In heroic games, I don't think this rule has ever come into play, but I'd certainly modify as realism dictates.

[pinecone]

Ive always thought of it as "At least a phase" and the actual time is based on story effects and what you change into...a super speedster 1 phase...Iron man , next Turn you are ready...do you have a DNPC? while you are dressing he/she gets in trouble or blunders into where your doing your thing, and like that...don't even Think about what unluck can do to you

[Trebuchet]

I still think it helps to just consider a Phase to be a frame from a comic rather than a discreet amount of time measured in nanoseconds. It makes a lot more sense if we see Peter Parker running into an alley and in the next frame Spider-Man swings into action. What happened in between is irrelevant.

[McCoy]

It's a genre convention. Considering that caracters can also deliver Hamlet's soliquility in a single phase, it's not unreasonable.

["V"]

Slightly off topic, but related to both games mechanics and clothing (and it amuses me...) so I'll mention it anyway.

 

I played in a pulp based campaign using some home grown rules that allowed PCs to specify how they regained "Plot Points" (luck point type system allowing extra successes) based on their character stereotype- some characters had 'catchphrases' or particular schticks that regenerated Plot Points.

 

One of our female players, playing a glamorous lady adventurer (daughter of the infamous Professor Dashwood) had recently discovered the "Spicy" pulps and designed her character to recover Plot Points whenever caught in a revealing pose or whenever losing garments (incidents suggested as opportunity arose, by the player herself, eg skirt caught in car door, car drives off etc). Raised a chuckle from time to time and certainly in the spicy genre...

 

A similar system seems to be used in a lot of Hollywood action movies, explaining why heroines are forever running round in tight t-shirts, night-dresses etc etc etc. It helps them beat the bad guys

[Vondy]

Changing (removing) clothes in one phase is more of a Porn Hero schtick than anything.

[BlackSword]

I was thinking of this recently too. Like posted before, its more of a convention for changing into a uniform which presumably is beneath one's clothes (how many times have you seen Clark Kent or Bruce Wayne not wearing a white undershit, but something more practical). I don't believe its meant to reflect changing from a three piece suit down to skivvies and putting and then putting on form fitting spandex. It really would be unheroic to watch someone dancing around on one foot trying to get their slacks over their shoes, but that is why they have Dex checks in game.

[Yamo]

I think all the superhero analogies in this thread are good evidence that this rule isn't up to basic "genericness" standards. Champions is fine, and all (although not my thing), but HERO is a lot more than that.

 

I'm hoping this entry in the chart is revised for the next edition to something that fits better in Heroic games.

 

Thanks.

[Crimson Arrow]

Yes, I think it's to replicate the Spidey Suit under the clothes type thing. It's also practical though, as it stops everyone dragging their heels while Mr Y puts on his duds.

 

How often is changing clothes quickly going to matter in non-superhero games? The only other one which comes to mind is the spy genre (esp. Mission: Impossible type ones), but there you'd have reversible overcoats etc. if you were prepared for it.

 

Trebuchet's comments about a Phase being a panel of a comic book makes sense. I'd say it is also one shot of a film or tv programme. The new Marvel RPG and the old Golden Heroes game made this explicit IIRC.

 

You can always make a rule about how long it takes if you haven't got the other outfit on underneath you civilian clothes.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Actually, Crimson Arrow just inspired me...

 

1 phase is all you need to change clothes.

 

Of course, moving to the clothes is a phase, grabbing the clothes is 1 phase, moving to the rest of your clothes is 1 phase, grabbing the last of your clothes is a phase, changing clothes is a phase, and putting down your clothes is another phase.

 

Total time: 6 phases. 36 seconds for a normal who doesn't hesitate to think about.

 

[BlackSword]

Originally posted by Yamo

I think all the superhero analogies in this thread are good evidence that this rule isn't up to basic "genericness" standards. Champions is fine, and all (although not my thing), but HERO is a lot more than that.

 

I'm hoping this entry in the chart is revised for the next edition to something that fits better in Heroic games.

 

Thanks.

 

In the D&D players guide there is a chart for how long it takes to change into different armors depending on the complexity of the armor. I am sure it would be the same for power armor, or whatever being used in a scifi game. But donning armor is also different then changing clothes. Worrying about changing clothes is Champions issue since it is the one that deals most with secret identities. If it does become an issue in another genre(a thief quickly changing from black rogue type garments to a fancy noble's tunic) then it would be based upon speed and dex I am sure. But we've seen this done in superspy movie "True Lies" when at the beginning Arnie changes from a wetsuit (actually apparently a dry suit) to a full tux.

[Fur Face]

I thinks its more than comics convention, but a theatrical convention of suspended disbelief. Think about it. How often have you ever(in comics, films, TV) seen somone get caught changing clothes? The story stops if the changes don't take place, even if the results are that everyone around knows you've changed (because you look silly).

 

Blacksword is right about the D&D armor, but has anyone ever had time when a power-armored guy couldn't get his armor on? How does Defender dress in public? Would you even recogize the Steel Commando without his armor on?

 

Just some thoughts.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Yamo

I think all the superhero analogies in this thread are good evidence that this rule isn't up to basic "genericness" standards. Champions is fine, and all (although not my thing), but HERO is a lot more than that.

You're proceeding from an assumption that rules supercede dramatic sense, which HERO explicitly denies. Changing clothes in 1 Phase makes sense in a Champions game, where combats are often over in less than 12 seconds and the characters powers are often dependent on their costume. (I've lost count of how many times my MA superheroine has had to fight in street clothes, or was stripping down to her costume as she moved over the rooftops.) I would go with costumes that provide Powers, such as powered armor, taking longer than "inate" powers because that's part of why a character with OIF: Powered Armor gets a point break. It's only fair to the characters without that point break for a focus. But if a character's costume is just spandex worn under street clothes à la Spiderman, what's the big deal? (And this also answers the old question of "Why do superheroes/villains wear spandex costumes?" Answer: Because you can wear them under street clothes.)

 

But in a non-Champions game, changing clothes in combat time (12 segment turns) is done only for role-playing reasons; i.e., to assume a uniform quickly before the bad guy's goons realize you've infiltrated the base, etc. 99.9% of the time it's going to be done at leisure, the other 0.01% it's going to be critical and I'm gonna make you roll dice for it anyway. And in that case as a GM I'm going to go with "You've just finished pulling on the trousers and pants from the guard you knocked out when you hear several sets of footsteps coming your way. Make a DEX roll to finish putting on the rest of the uniform before the other guards arrive. They'll be here in about 20 seconds."

 

How long did it take Indiana Jones to put on the German soldier's uniform at the Nazi sub base in Raiders of the Lost Ark, or Luke Skywalker to put on the stormtrooper's armor in Star Wars? We don't know, because it's irrelevant to the story. This is all much ado about nothing.

[BlackSword]

To second Trebuchet's comment, dealing with phases is 'in combat time' so the only concern is if you have to change while engaged in combat. At all other times its role-playing and maybe a dice roll or two for pressured situations. If you go garment by garment, then a failure could be taking a little more time, a success means you managed to dress yourself, a critical success means you saved some time and critical failure means your shirt is on backwards. Otherwise you can find a Society of Creative Anachronisms(or your favorite medieval recreation society) friend and borrow a doublet for them. When they say they change in 6 seconds throw them the clothes and say, "go for it."

 

For Power Armor, Iron Man is able to press a button and leap off a building and the armor assembles itself around him in a short enough time he doesn't become street pizza. In the previous post I was thinking more of sci fi armor/power armor which may not be self assembling around a person, just an updated titanium carbon composite update to medieval armor.

[CorpCommander]

Make it Relevant

 

An exacting rule on how long it takes to get dressed/armored up isn't really worth the space in the rules, IMHO becuase it almost never is a factor in gaming.

 

However, you could make it a factor in a roleplaying sense. Have the players describe the usual routine at their base. If they have armor and all, they can't be getting much needed R&R while wearing it so tell them specifically they have to not be wearing it at all times.

 

Then attack the base as the worst possible instant and let the players figure out how to get from whatever R&R they were doing to getting suited up to becoming involved with the ongoing combat. Make a big deal about timing. Find ways of tripping up the players.

 

Role Playing comes when you can't just say "I do this." It comes when the player has to do X,Y and Z in the right order and they aren't sure what Y even is!

 

My $0.02

[Trebuchet]

Re: Make it Relevant

 

Originally posted by CorpCommander

Have the players describe the usual routine at their base. If they have armor and all, they can't be getting much needed R&R while wearing it so tell them specifically they have to not be wearing it at all times.

 

Then attack the base as the worst possible instant and let the players figure out how to get from whatever R&R they were doing to getting suited up to becoming involved with the ongoing combat. Make a big deal about timing. Find ways of tripping up the players.

Something like this happened to me many years ago. My powered-armor hero Ranger was magnetically based, since his alter ego, Dr. Kevin Green was the world's foremost physicist expert on magnetism. One day a magnetically based supervillain attacked the university physics department looking for Dr. Green, beccause said villain figured that as the world's foremost expert on magnetism, Dr. Green had to know something about Ranger's identity. In other words, he attacked my character's secret identity because he thought said secret identity was one of Ranger's DNPCs.

 

Hilarity ensued as Dr. Green raced through the Berkelely campus with the briefcase containing his powered armor, desperately trying to find a quiet spot (i.e., one without onlookers or rampaging villains) so he could change into his Ranger armor. Needless to say, by the time he'd finally dodged a half dozen energy blasts (sans armor) and finally put on his armor, Ranger was not in a good mood. The ensuing fight was very brief. The good Lord always provides, and Ranger's thought processes went something like "I'm in a bad mood, and I feel like pummeling something." And lo and behold, a supervillain-shaped punching bag!

 

And I had a good laugh about it too, after I throttled the GM and buried his body in an undisclosed location.