FULL POWER

[Blue Angel]

Looking at CKC it seems that the Villains in general are not too tough. Even when subject to their own maximum damage output most would go down in one hit.

 

Even standard level super heros with up to 80 AP powers and PD,ED in the range of around 20 (say up to 30 for bricks) would not stay up long against equally powered characters.

 

My impression from comic books was that nobody went around using their full potential all the time. So my thinking is that in order for battles to last longer than a few phases there has to be some holding back.

 

Why? The villains are arrogant and don't feel the need to give it their all. The heros want something more than blood pudding left to turn over to the police.

 

At least that is my theory.

 

What about your campaigns. Do your players excercise judicious use of power or do they give it their all continously?

[Agent X]

Re: FULL POWER

 

Originally posted by Blue Angel

Looking at CKC it seems that the Villains in general are not too tough. Even when subject to their own maximum damage output most would go down in one hit.

 

Even standard level super heros with up to 80 AP powers and PD,ED in the range of around 20 (say up to 30 for bricks) would not stay up long against equally powered characters.

 

My impression from comic books was that nobody went around using their full potential all the time. So my thinking is that in order for battles to last longer than a few phases there has to be some holding back.

 

Why? The villains are arrogant and don't feel the need to give it their all. The heros want something more than blood pudding left to turn over to the police.

 

At least that is my theory.

 

What about your campaigns. Do your players excercise judicious use of power or do they give it their all continously?

They hit any opponent that they think can take their maximum attack with the maximum. They want to win the fight, after all. However, they don't go around slaughtering goons with 4d6 killing attacks.

[Doctor Agenda]

They (we) give it our all every time, only holding back if there is a special reason to (fighting unarmored gangbangers, for instance). Our battles tend not to be too short. Remember it takes about 7d6 normal damage (24.5 Stun on the average) to reliably punch-out (to dazed) a normal person with 20 Stun and 2 PD in one shot. It's dangerous, you're going to do 5 Body to the guy on the average (maybe a broken bone) and there's a remote chance (less than one in a hundred) that you'll take his Body down to below zero on a high roll. If you've got a GM who thinks Stunned Normals will be out of the fight you can be a little more restrained and still look tough and not waste precious segments fighting the mooks when someone's about to press a Doomsday button. To one-punch someone reliably with a 10d6 normal attack, their combined Stun and Defense have to be less than 35, say 4 PD and 30 Stun. We're talking about a guy with a 50 Str having to use it all to have a good chance of knocking out a Skilled Normal. Someone with an 80 Str could one-punch (on the average) someone with a combined Stun and Defense of 56, say a not-too-tough villain with 40 Stun and 15 PD. A 10-12 DC attack would have to succeed about twice, an 8 DC attack would have to succeed about three times to do the same thing. It's all about how the GM sets things up, the players will have their characters do what they think they need to do to win, if restraint is not rewarded somehow even someone who would like to play a character with more restraint will probably start pulling out the stops eventually.

 

If combats are too short (I can't remember the last time I heard that complaint about a Hero game) and you want to lengthen them by having the heroes pull their punches out of fear of hurting someone, try using hit locations to give them more options for ways to defeat their opponents and have the mooks (agents ore whatever) die if they take a disabling shot to a vital area (head, chest stomach, vitals). One way to encourage them to take aimed shots is to allow half damage if they fail to hit the location but would have hit their opponent if not for the location penalties...just because they don't hit just right doesn't mean they couldn't have hit SOMETHING. You can also use the very realistic method of having Stunned NPCs think very hard about getting up in a hurry to get hit again...it would be nice if once in a while at least they would play dead or run away or take a couple of recoveries. Adding more opponents is also a good way to stretch out combat and gives that "we beat the odds" feeling.

 

As far as those villains going down so quick, remember the Bell Curve: most of the time your damage rolls will center around the average, not the maximum, and this is more true the more dice you use. A 16d6 attack will usually not do more than 60 points of damage so a 30 Def Brick with 65 Stun will probably be able to soak up a couple of hits without too much trouble. And with a 16d6 attack on the hero's part you're talking about a high or very-high powered game. If your villains are going down too quick the best option is probably to give them more Stun. You can also have them fight cleverly, using cover, range, bystanders, minions, and scenery to advantage.

 

If you haven't tried out those villains yet, you might want to have a practice combat with your players to see how it goes, you don't even have to tell them their opponent's real name, just change the look and name. If your bad guy goes down too easy in practice you can tell what he needs to be more challenging when you really use him. I just started using this trick, had my players go up against a woman with the same stats and abilities as Firewing only with an Electrical theme to see if Firewing could stand up against them okay in a fight. They saved the day with some effort and when I used the "real" Firewing I had him back up and use his powers from a great enough distance that it was a real challenge for SouthGuard to capture him.

 

I hope you found something to use in all this.

[Arthur]

Speaking of CKC: I can't figure out why almost every NPC with Damage Resistance has it up to his full PD/ED. MOST of character concepts, IMO, call for resistant defenses to be 1/3 to 1/2 of full defenses. For instance, someone with super strong muscles will be tough, but not invulnerable.

 

Where are all the PD 21/7 folks?

[Tom McCarthy]

My players typically go full out, but they were built under 4th editions standards, where characters typically have 10 DCs and 20 DEF and 23 CON, rather than 12 DCs and 20 DEF and 23 CON.

 

In the former, it takes 44 STUN (maybe 6% of all hits) to stun an opponent; in the latter, just an average roll (maybe 40% of all hits).

 

Of course, it is dangerous to try and one punch a normal. Sure, it's 'just' 5 BODY. It also only takes 3 BODY to sever a limb in some campaigns.

[TheEmerged]

RE: Lower DEF Scores. This appears to be a design decision that affects all of the DOJ-era Champions Universe. Some people subscribe to the belief that this is a good thing and claim it encourages defensive actions -- my experience says the exact opposite. For my own purposes I've found that I have to add anywhere from 5-15 DEF to nearly every official writeup, and in some cases more, to have combat play out the way I like it to work.

 

BTW, based on most of the writeups I've seen in the DOJ-era CU the most feared power in that continuity must be Missile Reflection

[Tom McCarthy]

On the flip side, Blowtorch's fuel tank has more than doubled in DEF, and now outclasses a main battle tank.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

RE: Lower DEF Scores. This appears to be a design decision that affects all of the DOJ-era Champions Universe. Some people subscribe to the belief that this is a good thing and claim it encourages defensive actions -- my experience says the exact opposite. For my own purposes I've found that I have to add anywhere from 5-15 DEF to nearly every official writeup, and in some cases more, to have combat play out the way I like it to work.

 

BTW, based on most of the writeups I've seen in the DOJ-era CU the most feared power in that continuity must be Missile Reflection

Low Defenses encourage Hitting Fast and Hard - going for the knockout. Defensive Maneuvers result in a loss of initiative and being dictated to by your opponent. Anybody remember what happened to the late 1980s/early 1990s New Orleans Saints every time they went into a prevent defense against the 49ers?

[Blue Angel]

One thought I had was that using all you had all the time was like tipping you hand. Everyone knows what your best is. Villains must be able to use that against you some how.

 

Take two well known heros working together. One uses full power pretty much all the time and one who usually holds back. When the villains show up who are they going for. Obviously the one who is known as the bigger threat. So the heavy hitter should go down first if the bad guys have seen the news. The other guy however is the last one to be attacked because he is not perceived as being so big a threat. They don't know that he can really cut loose if he has to. So when he does it is a surprise.

 

As an example: Just for fun I have been working on a character, Titan, who is intended to be the strongest being in the world, (yes, Giganto is relatively whimpy) but who is so concerned about causeing harm that he only uses a small fraction of his total strength except in the most dire circumstances.

 

Guess I am a tactician in everything and I always consider having something held in reserve.

[Kristopher]

There's always the character so overflowing with power that he can barely contain it. I had an NPC named Carnage (no relation) who -couldn't- hold back...12d6 EB Double Knockback, AoE Line, Beam. It was all or nothing. He only showed up once, and was off screen on one other occasion, but he made quite an impression.

[Blue Angel]

One Villain built with great tactical reasoning is firewing. He has three settings of fire bolt. Low power blasts with no end cost for easy opponents and more staying power. Right up to the big blast with the heavy END cost. This character exemplifies the kind of thinking I am describing. He can take it easy and keep going for a long time. But if the going gets tough he can blast with the biggest. For staying in a long fight there is a tactical advantage to using less power sometimes.

[BNakagawa]

Originally posted by Agent X

Low Defenses encourage Hitting Fast and Hard - going for the knockout. Defensive Maneuvers result in a loss of initiative and being dictated to by your opponent. Anybody remember what happened to the late 1980s/early 1990s New Orleans Saints every time they went into a prevent defense against the 49ers?

 

Low defenses encourages defensive actions when you have numbers. It's a great approach to take when a group of PCs are fighting Grond.

 

It's much less effective if you are outnumered. (and have no means of escaping the combat)

 

$0.02

[Agent X]

Originally posted by BNakagawa

Low defenses encourages defensive actions when you have numbers. It's a great approach to take when a group of PCs are fighting Grond.

 

It's much less effective if you are outnumered. (and have no means of escaping the combat)

 

$0.02

What it is: very limiting in the tactics you can choose. If you follow the old standard of 2.5 def to the die as average you have a game where players have the opportunity to choose defensive, moderate, or offensive tactics in any of a variety of combinations. Low defense makes some tactics impossible to use just as High defense can make the game all about the first haymaker/move through/pushed eb that hits. There needs to be a balanced approach to allow OPTIONS instead of encouraging one style of play.

[Nucleon]

Not only does my players always go for Full Power, but most of the time they push as well. Fights which last for more then 1 turn tend to be scarce.

 

So, of course, I have to remake all CU personae in this view. As I remember "Classic Ennemies", they went for big scores of DEX, SPD and CON, but few in DEF because everybody should be able to hurt them, I imagine. I prefer to opt for "Damage Reduction" to fullfill this end.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Nucleon

Not only does my players always go for Full Power, but most of the time they push as well. Fights which last for more then 1 turn tend to be scarce.

 

So, of course, I have to remake all CU personae in this view. As I remember "Classic Ennemies", they went for big scores of DEX, SPD and CON, but few in DEF because everybody should be able to hurt them, I imagine. I prefer to opt for "Damage Reduction" to fullfill this end.

I use a house rule:

 

Pushing requires a Con roll for physical attacks and an Ego roll for mental attacks. A Power Skill roll can be substituted if the character has that skill. The number of character points pushed modifies the roll by this simple formula: -1 penalty for every 10 character points pushed. A failed roll still succeeds but the character suffers penalties as if they had been stunned. A roll failed by more than half costs the character one fourth of their total starting stun. With a roll of 18, the character is stunned, loses half their stun and all their endurance. Pushing is supposed to be dramatic and something you do when everything is on the line. This helps me keep it that way.

[Damionte]

I got around this by simply not using the Write Up Villians as is. They're all modified to keep up with the pace of my PC's. I don't even bother assighning points to the villians. I don't even write up character sheets for them. I just pencil in a few notes on in the bokos and then modify them on the fly as needed.

[Damionte]

That's for the main vilians. For the agenst and normals I leave it up to the players to not go full power and squish things. They are held acountable for turning the vilians into paste.

 

It's great as they occasionally start a comba pulling punches too much against a dangerous foe. I love that.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Agent X

I use a house rule: (...) Pushing is supposed to be dramatic and something you do when everything is on the line. This helps me keep it that way.

Might be good. Usually, all players have good CON, and mentalists have commonly high EGO. Even with the use of a power skill, this puts some drama in the push, indeed.

 

(To Nucleon's players; ) Nucleon likes the idea...Tremble, mortals.

 

Originally posted by Damionte

I got around this by simply not using the Write Up Villians as is. They're all modified to keep up with the pace of my PC's. I don't even bother assighning points to the villians. I don't even write up character sheets for them. I just pencil in a few notes on in the bokos and then modify them on the fly as needed.

Well your players must trust in your judgement alot to allow this...Still, it has great appeal, even if Nucleon thinks your trading off strategy for drama.

 

Which is not a bad deal.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Nucleon

Might be good. Usually, all players have good CON, and mentalists have commonly high EGO. Even with the use of a power skill, this puts some drama in the push, indeed.

 

(To Nucleon's players; ) Nucleon likes the idea...Tremble, mortals.

 

 

Well your players must trust in your judgement alot to allow this...Still, it has great appeal, even if Nucleon thinks your trading off strategy for drama.

 

Which is not a bad deal.

Thanks, I'll be here all summer.

[Maccabe]

Full Power

 

I happen to recall a Limited power (Beam weapon), that was Must used at Full power all the time.

 

How about the effects of FULL Power?? 4d6 RKA could KILL.

Especially if it missed the target and hit a Normal !

 

Holding back can also be good when trying to gauge your opponents strength, or set up a nasty surprise.

Example: " Hey Powergirl don't worry , this guy can only

do 8d6 EB." ( as discovered through combat)

Then-> " POWERGIRL ! Take 14d6 EB!!"

Tell me that wouldn't surprise a PC.

[Blue Angel]

Re: Full Power

 

Originally posted by Maccabe

I happen to recall a Limited power (Beam weapon), that was Must used at Full power all the time.

 

How about the effects of FULL Power?? 4d6 RKA could KILL.

Especially if it missed the target and hit a Normal !

 

Holding back can also be good when trying to gauge your opponents strength, or set up a nasty surprise.

Example: " Hey Powergirl don't worry , this guy can only

do 8d6 EB." ( as discovered through combat)

Then-> " POWERGIRL ! Take 14d6 EB!!"

Tell me that wouldn't surprise a PC.

 

The surprise element would completely take a PC off guard. When I run games I love to catch the players off guard just to let em know who's God... er I mean the GM.

 

What about destroying someones reputation. Use 8d6 EB on everyone except for one opponent. After a while everyone will start to think they are weak.

 

This would be a great approach for a tactician like utility who loves to humiliate supers.

[TaxiMan]

Originally posted by Agent X

The number of character points pushed modifies the roll by this simple formula: -1 penalty for every 10 character points pushed.

 

How many points do you allow for pushing? No maximum? Just curious.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by TaxiMan

How many points do you allow for pushing? No maximum? Just curious.

No maximum. It's open for abuse but I don't play with abusive players... for very long.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Agent X

No maximum. It's open for abuse but I don't play with abusive players... for very long.

Bravo! Too few Champions players and GMs are willing to take this stance.

 

I'd allow characters to Push as much as they like, to the point of burning Stun and Body for Endurance. If the only way to save the world is to kill yourself pushing, then that's heroic enough to permit IMHO. Of course, they may need to make an Ego roll to push that hard.

 

I'm not worried about my players abusing pushing. I've got great players.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Bravo! Too few Champions players and GMs are willing to take this stance.

 

I'd allow characters to Push as much as they like, to the point of burning Stun and Body for Endurance. If the only way to save the world is to kill yourself pushing, then that's heroic enough to permit IMHO. Of course, they may need to make an Ego roll to push that hard.

 

I'm not worried about my players abusing pushing. I've got great players.

Thank you and BRAVO! yourself.