Rarity of Magic?

[assault]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

I also use "low' date=' wide" magic in my campaign. It need not change the world as some have claimed. Just because it exists doesn't mean it's powerful or reliable or available enough to alter the structure of society. And magic that exists in one place might be very different from the magic that exists in another place.[/quote']

 

The thing with "low, wide" magic is that it doesn't change the world - it defines it.

 

This is particularly the case with the kind of religiously-linked magic I prefer.

 

Essentially, in this kind of schema, magic is a fundamental element of society. It helps define who you are, who your kinsfolk are, and what you and their places are in society and the economy. This is comparable to the role of religion in the Real World.

 

All of this suggests that the magical and religious systems in a setting should reflect the societies in which they exist. If you have a society based around a feudal style hierarchy, it is probable that their major religion will exhibit many of the characteristics of a feudal style hierarchy. In the Real World, that is because the society came first - in a fantasy world, the religion will have come first!

 

The problem with the "high, narrow" model is that magic generally isn't integrated with society. That's what creates the "magic as technology" problem. It causes change in society because it's not part of society. Essentially, what we have is something new bolted onto the side of society. Either it will end up falling off, or society will change to incorporate it.

 

Obviously the major source of this model is DnD. Like many such imports, it is wonky and ill-conceived, but it works well enough if you don't pay attention to it.

 

Just don't think that the result will be anything other than the modern world with Orcs and fireballs.

[Gawain]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

Just don't think that the result will be anything other than the modern world with Orcs and fireballs.

 

You mean Shadowrun?

[assault]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

You mean Shadowrun?

 

Yeah. That's the one!

 

 

 

 

Repped.

[Lemurion]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

The thing with the low wide magic is that some of the powers that seem small can have huge effects on society. The irrigation spell that was mentioned would eliminate drought and its effect on society. That alone is HUGE.

 

Wide magic either defines or redefines a world.

[Curufea]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

Anything to do with food production, preservation or transportation would effect the world to a great extent. As would anything to do with reproduction or medicine (ie midwifery spells, disease cures, or magical diseases)

[assault]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

Anything to do with food production' date=' preservation or transportation would effect the world to a great extent. As would anything to do with reproduction or medicine (ie midwifery spells, disease cures, or magical diseases)[/quote']

 

That's right: in a "wide magic" world, life would be impossible without magic.

 

No crops. No reproduction. No transportation. No unity amongst kinsfolk. The sun wouldn't rise in the morning.

 

Basically: Fimbulwinter, followed by Ragnarok.

[Markdoc]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

That's the way my FH world works: each village has it's own style of magic - it's own set of magical effects it can achieve - that it teaches to it's people. Magic from your own village might not seem so special - it's just a useful tool that provides a convenience in day-to-day life. But magic from another village can be strange and wondrous. The needs of their day-to-day lives are different from yours.

 

This is kind of how things work in the current setting I am running, except instead of vilages, it's cults. There's one religion, that most people worship, with 12 gods. Each god has their own sphere(s) and grants spells in those and has priests that are particularly dedicated to one particular god.

 

These priests are the basis of individual cults, so a small village temple might only have one priest. He'll keep the place clean and offer sacrifices to all 12 gods, but he will only have magic from his patron and so the village only has one cult - and only one kind of magic. In addition such an isolated cult probably won't have many cult secrets (spells, in other words). They won't have access to everything the god can grant.

 

A big temple in a large city might have have *more* than 12 cults, since a few gods might have subcults and the larger cults will have access to many spells, which they teach to initiates.

 

cheers, Mark

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

That's right: in a "wide magic" world, life would be impossible without magic.

 

No crops. No reproduction. No transportation. No unity amongst kinsfolk. The sun wouldn't rise in the morning.

 

Basically: Fimbulwinter, followed by Ragnarok.

 

Kind of a wide jump there, don't you think?

Plants still grow, people still ****, wagons still move, people ... well, people are people, the earth still revolves around the sun. All that's just basic physics.

 

Magic just helps.

[Springald Jack]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

Kind of a wide jump there, don't you think?

Plants still grow, people still ****, wagons still move, people ... well, people are people, the earth still revolves around the sun. All that's just basic physics.

 

Magic just helps.

 

Not in his universe. Magic is what makes the universe happen. His world is flat the world doesn't revolve around it, the Sun moves aoriund the Earth.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

The thing with "low' date=' wide" magic is that it doesn't [i']change[/i] the world - it defines it.

I'm not sure what you mean here. It that a good thing or a bad thing? What do you mean by this? I will interpret this in light of the rest of your post.

 

Essentially, in this kind of schema, magic is a fundamental element of society. It helps define who you are, who your kinsfolk are, and what you and their places are in society and the economy. This is comparable to the role of religion in the Real World.

That may be the case in your world, but it isn't essential to all low-wide magic worlds. It isn't to mine, for instance. In mine, is isn't at all similar to the role of religion, it's more like the role of vocational education. You could say it's like technology, but of course it's still quite primitive.

 

In the Real World, that is because the society came first - in a fantasy world, the religion will have come first!

I assume you mean for *your* fantasy world. And I don't understand where you get this idea about the real world either. I would have said the exact opposite. (Somewhat OT, I know. Please let's not start a religious argument.)

 

The problem with the "high, narrow" model is that magic generally isn't integrated with society. That's what creates the "magic as technology" problem.

Eh? I don't understnad what you're saying. Is technology not integrated with society?

 

Obviously the major source of this model is DnD. Like many such imports, it is wonky and ill-conceived, but it works well enough if you don't pay attention to it.

I don't mean to defend DnD, but even in that system, high-narrow magic could be integrated into the world. It depends on the individual setting and GM, and the details of the magic itself.

 

There's a lot more to a magic system than just its height and width. Knowing those two variables will not tell you enough to know whether the whole world is "defined" by it. Magic does not "define" my campaign world. It's part of it, and it makes a difference, sure.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

The thing with the low wide magic is that some of the powers that seem small can have huge effects on society. The irrigation spell that was mentioned would eliminate drought and its effect on society. That alone is HUGE.

 

Wide magic either defines or redefines a world.

I beg to differ. You are making an assumption that the irrigation spell is powerful enough, accessible enough, and reliable enough to eliminate drought. If it is, then I would no longer call it "low" magic.

 

Anything to do with food production' date=' preservation or transportation would effect the world to a great extent. As would anything to do with reproduction or medicine (ie midwifery spells, disease cures, or magical diseases)[/quote']

Only if it's powerful/accessible/reliable enough. If there's a spell that instantly creates food out of nothing, with a few simple magic words and gestures, which anybody can do, and it always works, then the world would be extremely different in many ways. There would be no farming, herding, hunting, fishing, etc. The population would grow at a tremendous rate. But is this really what we mean by "low" magic?

 

If OTOH, the create food spell requires a cup of dragon's blood, doesn't work during winter, and exhausts the caster to the extent that he'd be bed-ridden for a week if he tried to cast it on two consecutive days, then it really wouldn't change the world that much. It might be a useful spell once in a while (after some mighty hero hauls a dragan carcass into town), but it won't replace non-magical means of food production.

 

That's right: in a "wide magic" world, life would be impossible without magic.

 

No crops. No reproduction. No transportation. No unity amongst kinsfolk. The sun wouldn't rise in the morning.

 

Basically: Fimbulwinter, followed by Ragnarok.

As Crosshair Collie pointed out, this doesn't follow. You are making too many assumptions based on "low-wide" magic. Those two variables don't tell you enough to draw these conclusions.

[Kristopher]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

That's right: in a "wide magic" world, life would be impossible without magic.

 

No crops. No reproduction. No transportation. No unity amongst kinsfolk. The sun wouldn't rise in the morning.

 

Why not? Those things all happen without magic. People just use magic the same way they use technology in our world, or even in their world -- to make those things happen better, easier, faster, safer, etc.

[Kristopher]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

The thing with "low' date=' wide" magic is that it doesn't [i']change[/i] the world - it defines it.

 

This is particularly the case with the kind of religiously-linked magic I prefer.

 

Essentially, in this kind of schema, magic is a fundamental element of society. It helps define who you are, who your kinsfolk are, and what you and their places are in society and the economy. This is comparable to the role of religion in the Real World.

 

All of this suggests that the magical and religious systems in a setting should reflect the societies in which they exist. If you have a society based around a feudal style hierarchy, it is probable that their major religion will exhibit many of the characteristics of a feudal style hierarchy. In the Real World, that is because the society came first - in a fantasy world, the religion will have come first!

 

I think you're confusing "high, wide" with "low, wide".

 

Unless I'm mistaken and the "height" of the magic does not refer to its "power", but rather to something else.

[Curufea]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

Only if it's powerful/accessible/reliable enough. If there's a spell that instantly creates food out of nothing, with a few simple magic words and gestures, which anybody can do, and it always works, then the world would be extremely different in many ways. There would be no farming, herding, hunting, fishing, etc. The population would grow at a tremendous rate. But is this really what we mean by "low" magic?

 

If OTOH, the create food spell requires a cup of dragon's blood, doesn't work during winter, and exhausts the caster to the extent that he'd be bed-ridden for a week if he tried to cast it on two consecutive days, then it really wouldn't change the world that much. It might be a useful spell once in a while (after some mighty hero hauls a dragan carcass into town), but it won't replace non-magical means of food production.

 

Not necessarily. It doesn't have to be big magic. If it works most of the time and preserves food, or increases harvest - that would make an effect.

[Springald Jack]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

Why not? Those things all happen without magic. People just use magic the same way they use technology in our world' date=' or even in their world -- to make those things happen better, easier, faster, safer, etc.[/quote']

 

Well in the specific world he was talking about, just like many people once believed, the magic rituals of humans and the gods were necessary for processes that in the real world happen on their own.

 

If you don't keep the fire burning midwinter night the Sun won't be reborn. (belief from our world not neccesarily his)

[Kristopher]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

Well in the specific world he was talking about, just like many people once believed, the magic rituals of humans and the gods were necessary for processes that in the real world happen on their own.

 

If you don't keep the fire burning midwinter night the Sun won't be reborn. (belief from our world not neccesarily his)

 

I wasn't under the impression that he was discussing a specific world.

[Lemurion]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

Sorry that I can't do the quotes the way some can:

 

The reason that I was making the reference to an irrigation spell earlier, was because it was given by a previous poster as an example of a common peasant spell.

 

Any setting where "common peasants" have that kind of magical ability is going to have a social structure that is very heavily influenced, if not defined by the magic.

 

Just for clarity's sake I'm going to define my terms: Low magic is magic that is essentially technology by another name. It's not mysterious, it's not flashy, it just works. High magic is the big impressive flashy stuff, often wrapped in mystery. Narrow magic is the province of a very limited subset of society, while wide magic is much more common, known to a significant fraction if not a majority of the population.

 

The structure of any society is going to be bounded by the power available to it. Different kinds of power will bound and limit societies in different ways. One of the most important "powers" any society has is that of food production. Hunter-gatherer societies require the vast majority of people work in food production. As agriculture improves, and one has more food producing power, civilisations and societies change. As one changes the amount of human labor needed to do certain things (thus increasing one's power) the society will respond to those changes.

 

Societies with wide access to magic (especially crop magic) will not resemble European Feudalism any more than our modern society does. The foundations which feed and clothe the society will affect its very structure. Even if magic only allows an overall 10% improvement in crop yields, it's going to change the number of people required to support the society and things will snowball from there.

 

Continual light globes mean that people can work indoors as many hours in winter as in summer. Big change to the economy.

 

What we would consider a small comfort, would have a massive ripple effect.

[assault]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

I have to admit that a lot of what I have been suggesting has been based on a certain set of assumptions. But that has been largely due to the fact that other people have been following other assumptions, apparently without realising that that was the case.

 

Here is one example:

Why not? Those things all happen without magic. People just use magic the same way they use technology in our world' date=' or even in their world -- to make those things happen better, easier, faster, safer, etc.[/quote']

 

This viewpoint essentially assumes that the world is just like ours, but with magic stuck on as something of an optional extra.

 

An alternative view - the kind I was describing - was that magic was a key aspect of reality. In this approach, if Hades abducts Persephone, Demeter goes into mourning, and crops don't grow. At all.

 

And if humans fail to pay due respect to Demeter, their crops won't grow either.

 

Magic is not necessarily about making things happen better or faster - it can be about making things happen at all. It's not about making life better - it's about making life possible.

 

This is "wide" magic. Its practice involves almost everyone in a society to one degree or another. If you like, it's a relationship between a community and the divine.

 

It is not "narrow" magic in the sense of being restricted to a bunch of mystics hanging out in a tower studying the mysteries. (That can go on too, of course.)

 

It is "low" magic in the sense that its effects are barely distinguishable from mere chance. It isn't "high" magic in the sense of flashy effects like creating fireballs or continual sources of light. These could happen sometimes, of course, but they are hardly routine.

 

Finally, societies will resemble the models we want them to resemble, because they are made that way! As I pointed out, the deity or deities of a feudal society will tend to possess the attributes of feudal overlords and nobles. The society, in turn, will be organised in a way that reflects these attributes.

[assault]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

Not in his universe. Magic is what makes the universe happen. His world is flat the world doesn't revolve around it' date=' the Sun moves aoriund the Earth.[/quote']

 

Darn tootin'!

 

The Sun is either (a) a boat, ( a chariot or © a Big Pile of Glowing Dung pushed across the sky by a Really Big Bug. Or all three at the same time. (Personally, I think it's ©, but don't quote me on that.)

 

Gravity is not a law. Rather, it's a mannerism and an attitude. Google "define: gravity" for further information. (Presumably, then, things fall down out of good manners, or because it is customary...)

 

And so on.

 

---

Oops! I owe Rep to Springald Jack, but can't give it to him just yet.

[Kristopher]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

I have to admit that a lot of what I have been suggesting has been based on a certain set of assumptions. But that has been largely due to the fact that other people have been following other assumptions, apparently without realising that that was the case.

 

Here is one example:

 

 

This viewpoint essentially assumes that the world is just like ours, but with magic stuck on as something of an optional extra.

 

An alternative view - the kind I was describing - was that magic was a key aspect of reality. In this approach, if Hades abducts Persephone, Demeter goes into mourning, and crops don't grow. At all.

 

And if humans fail to pay due respect to Demeter, their crops won't grow either.

 

Magic is not necessarily about making things happen better or faster - it can be about making things happen at all. It's not about making life better - it's about making life possible.

 

This is "wide" magic. Its practice involves almost everyone in a society to one degree or another. If you like, it's a relationship between a community and the divine.

 

It is not "narrow" magic in the sense of being restricted to a bunch of mystics hanging out in a tower studying the mysteries. (That can go on too, of course.)

 

It is "low" magic in the sense that its effects are barely distinguishable from mere chance. It isn't "high" magic in the sense of flashy effects like creating fireballs or continual sources of light. These could happen sometimes, of course, but they are hardly routine.

 

Finally, societies will resemble the models we want them to resemble, because they are made that way! As I pointed out, the deity or deities of a feudal society will tend to possess the attributes of feudal overlords and nobles. The society, in turn, will be organised in a way that reflects these attributes.

 

We're using the terms differently then, as I expected. To me, "low vs high" refers to the power, not the obviousness, and "wide vs narrow" is about the accessibility, not about the pervasiveness. Low and wide magic is a few people in each village having the ability to cast a handful of small, helpful, "hearth" spells, such as healing minor wounds, lighting fires, easing births a litte, etc.

 

We need a third axis for the part you're talking about: how integrated and necessary magic is, the difference between magic being a nice thing to have, and magic being absolutely necessary to the functioning of the world.

[Lucius]

Rarity of Magic?

 

In Terry Pratchet's novel The Last Hero the last and greatest barbarian hero on the Discworld (a flat world borne on the backs of four elephants, borne on the back of the great star turtle At'un) decides it's time to return to the Gods what the FIRST hero stole from them. What the first hero stole from the Gods was fire.

 

Now, without going into details or spoilers, a council is convened in the city of Ankh-Morpork when the wizards learn of this plan. There, it is explained that one of the effects of what Cohen the Barbarian plans to do (an unintended consequence) will be to disrupt the Disc's thaumic aura, or magical field, eliminating all magic for a period of two years or more. One of the councilors says "Well, we can get by without magick for a couple of years can't we? Tough time for you wizards, but you can wait it out, right?"

One of the wizards has to explain "Magick isn't just a lot of flash-bang and pretty colors. That's just something we can DO with magick. What it IS, is the force that's holding the Discworld together. Without it, not even the great turtle At'uin will survive - not even for an hour."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Wondering how much attention a palindromedary would get in Sator Square

[Manic Typist]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

Niiiice.

[Midas]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

We need a third axis for the part you're talking about: how integrated and necessary magic is, the difference between magic being a nice thing to have, and magic being absolutely necessary to the functioning of the world.

 

That would be depth. Not being smart alecky, that really does sound like depth you are describing.

 

Midas

 

Well yeah, I do like to be a smart a$$, but I wasn't, here.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

Sorry that I can't do the quotes the way some can:

Just use the Quote button in the lower right corner of the post you're responding to.

 

Any setting where "common peasants" have that kind of magical ability is going to have a social structure that is very heavily influenced, if not defined by the magic.

It really depends on the details of the magic. "The devil's in the details." In a world without magic, a peasant farmer spends hours each day pumping water out of a well to irrigate his crops. In a world with magic, he might cast an "Irrigate Crops" spell, but the spell takes hours to cast and leaves the farmer just as tired as if he'd been hauling buckets of water all day. This second world would be almost exactly the same as the first. In another world, he can use a "Quickly Irrigate Crops" spell, which only takes a few seconds to cast, but it requires a one-pound solid gold statue of the rain god as an expendible focus each time you cast it. This third world will be *exactly* the same as the first, because no peasant is going to even see a pound of gold in his lifetime, let alone waste it to save himself one day of labor. In a fourth world, "Snfrgm's Irrigate Crops" spell takes seconds to cast and requires no focus, but it can only be cast on Midsummer's Day. This world is almost exactly the same as the other three, except the farmer gets one day off every year.

 

Granted, that "Improved Irrigate Crops" - seconds to cast, no Focus, castable every day - would change the world significantly.

 

Just for clarity's sake I'm going to define my terms: Low magic is magic that is essentially technology by another name. It's not mysterious, it's not flashy, it just works. High magic is the big impressive flashy stuff, often wrapped in mystery. Narrow magic is the province of a very limited subset of society, while wide magic is much more common, known to a significant fraction if not a majority of the population.

Thank you for defining your terms! That's something we often forget to do in these arguments. It probably shows us the source of this disagreement. I would not define them the same way. Like Kristopher, I define "low" and "high" as referring to how powerful the magic is, not its particular use or its SFX. I gather that you would consider a Deendee Fireball to be "high" and a Guarantee Good Harvest spell to be "low." I would consider them both to be high.

 

To me:

9d6 Fireball = High

9d6 Fireball, 11- Activation, Side Effects (same effect on caster), Expendible-Difficult-to-Acquire OAF, 1 Turn to Cast, Concentration 0 DCV throughout casting time = Low

Guarantee Good Harvest (using CE or Transform or whatever build you like) = High

Cause Adequate Rainfall (using whatever build), Requires willing human sacrifice each week throughout the year, Requires expensive expendible components, Only if the (capricious) god(s) feel the community is sufficiently pious, RSR, etc. (and note it doesn't protect against vermin, blight, fire, or anything else that might cause crop failure) = Low

 

The two axes of hight and width do not provide enough information to draw some of these conclusions about the world. Kristopher mentions a third axis, and I'm sure we could think of several more that would help to give a more complete picture: flashy-subtle, military-civillian*, taken-given**, etc.

 

* By this I refer to magic for combat vs. magic for industry/living. I suppose this one has a third option: entertainment/asthetics.

 

** By this one I mean whether the magic can be called upon "at will" by the user, or whether it requires the "permission" of some other power, such as the gods. In the latter case, the world need not change very much at all no matter what the magic does because the gods can always say no if it would change the world in a way they don't want.

[Pentoth]

Re: Rarity of Magic?

 

In my games only the Fae may cast arcane types of magic. I do allow priests, druids, shamans etc... whose powers are divine in nature. This way the presence of the Gods is shown. Magic items are very rare and very powerfull. My players were at first resistant to the idea however once they got used to it most of them loved it that way.