Is this Indirect?

[Just Joe]

A ball of energy (energy blast) comes from a gun (or a hand). It can curve around barriers, but must cross all intervening space. My gut says that this is an example of a power with the advantage "Indirect". But upon reading the text of the advantage, it seems not to be. I'm guessing it still counts as indirect, but is just not a paradigmatic example.

 

What do you think?

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Is this Indirect?

 

As I've usually played such things (mortar rounds, lobbed grenades, etc) that's Indirect, yes.

[Just Joe]

Re: Is this Indirect?

 

As I've usually played such things (mortar rounds' date=' lobbed grenades, etc) that's Indirect, yes.[/quote']So what level of advantage do you consider that? (+1/4, I'm guessing).

 

What I was thinking of could curve left and right, or down then up, not just up then down. What level of advantage would you make that?

[Edsel]

Re: Is this Indirect?

 

All of it sounds like a (+1/4) Advantage to me. It is a Defined Origin Point, Only Fires Away sort of attack. I have read examples of similar powers bought this way.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Is this Indirect?

 

The supervillain Holocaust from Conquerors, Killers And Crooks has an Indirect attack similar to this. It "arcs around to attack an enemy from behind, turns corners to hit someone trying to hide behind cover, and so forth." (CKC p. 160)

 

This attack has Indirect at the +1/2 level. If it sounds similar to what your proposed gun could do, I'd buy it at that level. If your gun is significantly less flexible than that, though, +1/4 should be sufficient.

[Rapier]

Re: Is this Indirect?

 

Classic Indirect at +1/4.

 

Attack always originates at the same location (eg gun/hand) and is always fired away from the attacker.

[Just Joe]

Re: Is this Indirect?

 

Classic Indirect at +1/4.

 

Attack always originates at the same location (eg gun/hand) and is always fired away from the attacker.

But doesn't the standard +1/4 originate from a point other than the attacker's hex and then fire straight at the target? I don't recall anything in the text (which I read recently) about the attack following a curved path?

 

The supervillain Holocaust from Conquerors' date=' Killers And Crooks[/i'] has an Indirect attack similar to this. It "arcs around to attack an enemy from behind, turns corners to hit someone trying to hide behind cover, and so forth." (CKC p. 160)

 

This attack has Indirect at the +1/2 level. If it sounds similar to what your proposed gun could do, I'd buy it at that level. If your gun is significantly less flexible than that, though, +1/4 should be sufficient.

Thanks. This sounds about right to me. I was undecided about just how flexible it was. At the +1/2 level, I'm thinking it can make at least one right turn (though I was leaning toward not allowing it to move back toward the user, even at this level). At the +1/4 level, I'm thinking something parabola-ish (left-right, up-down, or whatever). Of course, that means one can get an advantage more flexible than Duke Bushido's mortars for the same cost, but maybe that's an acceptable case of limited granularity.

[Rapier]

Re: Is this Indirect?

 

But doesn't the standard +1/4 originate from a point other than the attacker's hex and then fire straight at the target? I don't recall anything in the text (which I read recently) about the attack following a curved path?

 

+1/4 doesn't have any origination limits, other than it must be from the same point. The example in the book, iirc, is of a lightning bolt. The lightning bolt always originates from the sky.

 

+1/2 would originate from any point and move away from the attacker. If a character was an earth elemental and could conjure up fists of stone to smash someone, the origin point could be anywhere, as long as the target was not between the origin point and the character (eg the attack can aim towards the attacker).

 

If the attack always originates at the character (at his gun) and travels generally towards the target (even if it loops around a couple of times) thats a +1/4.

 

+1/4 means that the origin point is always at the same point in relation to the character (3" in front of the character, from the sky above the character, from the character's hand or gun). +1/2 means that the origin point can be anyplace but still move away from the attacker. +3/4 means that the origin point can be anywhere and the target can be anywhere in relation to the attacker.

 

From the description of the power this is what I gleaned: Character A has a gun. This gun shots a "ball of force" from its barrel. That ball travels towards a target through all intervening space and is able to curve around walls, shields, etc to hit the target. That sounds like a perfect definiton of Indirect at the +1/4 level to me.

 

In my games, I would call that a +1/4. Of course, you are free to force it to the +1/2 level if you feel it's appropriate.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Is this Indirect?

 

I could be mistaken but I thought the +1/4 version has to be in a straight line too. Let's say your gun has an X-Ray scope on it so you can see targets through obstacles. You know where to fire the gun, but if there's a wall in the way, the attack would just hit the wall since you picked the gun as the origin of the attack.

 

+1/2 allows for alternate origins which I think would fit better. When you fire the gun, the attack "originates" on the other side of the wall. The special effect is that it found a way to curve around the wall.

 

Of course, if this is just a heroic campaign, I wouldn't worry too much about costing out this equipment as long as the players understand how it works.

[Edsel]

Re: Is this Indirect?

 

Here is my effort at further explaining how I believe this is supposed to work.

 

A +1/4 Indirect attack has to originate from a single pre-defined point. Usually the pre-defined point of origin is from the attacker himself but not always. For instance it could be defined as a spell that calls down lightning in which case the pre-defined point of origin would always be from the clouds above. Such an attack will also travel away from the attacker meaning that it must travel down range based upon the facing of the attacker. However such an attack can swerve around, over or under intervening obstacles to hit its target.

 

So If Joe and Mike are facing each other and Joe shoots Mike with his wonder gun, the shot will launch from the gun, head directly down range and impact Mike's front since he is facing Joe. If there is an obstacle between them the shot (with +1/4 Indirect) will arc around the obstacle to hit Mike.

 

A +1/2 Indirect Attack still has to launch from a specific pre-defined point of origin but it can fire any direction. For instance it can loop around to strike a target behind Joe. It doesn't have to travel in the direction that Joe is facing.

 

Alternatively a +1/2 Indirect Attack could instead be defined as having a variable point of origin but still have to attack a target in the direction that Joe is facing. The example in the book is a mobile blaster platform that Joe controls and can fire. It could be above him, beside him, etc. It still has to fire down range with respect to Joe (in the direction that Joe is facing).

[Just Joe]

Re: Is this Indirect?

 

+1/4 doesn't have any origination limits, other than it must be from the same point. The example in the book, iirc, is of a lightning bolt. The lightning bolt always originates from the sky.

 

+1/2 would originate from any point and move away from the attacker. If a character was an earth elemental and could conjure up fists of stone to smash someone, the origin point could be anywhere, as long as the target was not between the origin point and the character (eg the attack can aim towards the attacker).

 

If the attack always originates at the character (at his gun) and travels generally towards the target (even if it loops around a couple of times) thats a +1/4.

 

+1/4 means that the origin point is always at the same point in relation to the character (3" in front of the character, from the sky above the character, from the character's hand or gun). +1/2 means that the origin point can be anyplace but still move away from the attacker.

I think you're missing my point, though it's certainly possible that I'm just being dense.

 

An ordinary energy blast with no advantages or limitations at all originates at the character (the same point every time). So the fact that the power I described at the beginning of this thread also originates at the character is clearly not enough to establish that it is +1/4 indirect. As far as I can recall, there is nothing in the text that indicates that an indirect attack can do anything other than follow a straight line.

 

I think it's a natural extrapolation to treat the power I'm asking about as indirect, but I don't think it fits the strict definition. And since we're adding abilities not strictly given in the write-up of "indirect", I don't think we can just automatically follow the advantage levels based on the point of origin of the attack.

 

Furthermore, under the standard rules, even at the +1/2 level, the attack moves away from the character (as you point out above). But if the attack can loop back, then it's debatable whether it fits the criterion. I'm not looking at the text right now, but the power we're talking about starts out moving away from the character, while potentially moving back toward the character later.

 

So again, I think we're stuck extrapolating. You seem to think that we aren't, but I don't see why you would think that. Lord Liaden's way of extrapolating strikes me as a reasonable one, though not the only possible one.

[Just Joe]

Re: Is this Indirect?

 

I could be mistaken but I thought the +1/4 version has to be in a straight line too. Let's say your gun has an X-Ray scope on it so you can see targets through obstacles. You know where to fire the gun' date=' but if there's a wall in the way, the attack would just hit the wall since you picked the gun as the origin of the attack.[/quote']It has to be in a straight line (or maybe "has to" is too strong -- according to the text it standardly is in a straight line). But when you design the power, the point of origin of the attack is set. The gun you describe does not seem to me to be indirect at all. Now if it openned a small interdimensional portal (special effect -- not power), say, 2 meters in front of the gun that caused energy to stream into our dimension from that portal away from the attacker, then it would be a textbook example of indirect at the +1/4 level (and now you x-ray scope would really come in handy).

 

+1/2 allows for alternate origins which I think would fit better. When you fire the gun' date=' the attack "originates" on the other side of the wall. The special effect is that it found a way to curve around the wall.[/quote']Whether +1/2 is appropriate for that special effect is a matter for debate, but the standard +1/2 level would allow you to do what I described for the +1/4 level above, and also adjust the distance of the portal as desired to bypass walls, allies,etc.

 

Of course' date=' if this is just a heroic campaign, I wouldn't worry too much about costing out this equipment as long as the players understand how it works.[/quote']The campaign is weird, but for simplicity's sake, consider it low-powered superheroic where equipment must be purchased.

[Just Joe]

Re: Is this Indirect?

 

A +1/4 Indirect attack has to originate from a single pre-defined point. Usually the pre-defined point of origin is from the attacker himself but not always. For instance it could be defined as a spell that calls down lightning in which case the pre-defined point of origin would always be from the clouds above. Such an attack will also travel away from the attacker meaning that it must travel down range based upon the facing of the attacker. However such an attack can swerve around' date=' over or under intervening obstacles to hit its target.[/quote']I don't think this is right. I think that unless you take the option of +1/4 meaning the attack can come from any part of the attacker's body rather than a predefined point, it is usually pointless to buy an attack as indirect (+1/4) unless it is going to originate from someplace other than the attacker's body or carried equipment. My understanding is that at the +1/4 level, the attack must travel away from the attacker in three-dimensional space, not just on a 2-D map. So your lightning bolt from the sky is not allowed at this level.

 

So If Joe and Mike are facing each other and Joe shoots Mike with his wonder gun' date=' the shot will launch from the gun, head directly down range and impact Mike's front since he is facing Joe. If there is an obstacle between them the shot (with +1/4 Indirect) will arc around the obstacle to hit Mike.[/quote']This is what I want to do, but I don't see it in the rulebook.

 

A +1/2 Indirect Attack still has to launch from a specific pre-defined point of origin but it can fire any direction. For instance it can loop around to strike a target behind Joe. It doesn't have to travel in the direction that Joe is facing.

 

Alternatively a +1/2 Indirect Attack could instead be defined as having a variable point of origin but still have to attack a target in the direction that Joe is facing. The example in the book is a mobile blaster platform that Joe controls and can fire. It could be above him, beside him, etc. It still has to fire down range with respect to Joe (in the direction that Joe is facing).

Your first example seems to me a reasonable extrapolation, the lsecond a straightforward application of the standard rules.

 

But maybe I should just shut up until I get my hands back on my copy of 5ER, since I don't remember if I most recently read "indirect" in that or in FrED, and I only have the latter available at this time.

[Rapier]

Re: Is this Indirect?

 

I don't think this is right. I think that unless you take the option of +1/4 meaning the attack can come from any part of the attacker's body rather than a predefined point' date=' it is usually pointless to buy an attack as indirect (+1/4) unless it is going to originate from someplace other than the attacker's body or carried equipment. My understanding is that at the +1/4 level, the attack must travel away from the attacker in three-dimensional space, not just on a 2-D map. So your lightning bolt from the sky is not allowed at this level.[/quote']

 

Actually, the lightning bolt thing is (and I looked it up) an actual example in the text for +1/4.

 

Ok, lemme break this down as how I see it:

 

a) Regular Attack - GunMan fires his gun. It travels straight and directly from the gun to the target (Mook A). If Mook A has some intervening object (a wall, force wall or something), he gets the benefit of the DEF of the object.

 

Indirect +1/4 - GunMan fires his gun. The shot travels away from GunMan towards Mook A. Mook A has a force wall set up in front of him, but the attack is able to maneuver around the wall to attack him. Now, the SFX could be an actual curving attack (ala Magic Missle) or could just be some smart round that explodes when it passes the wall so as to shower Mook A with hot lead. Regardless of the looping the attack does to strike Mook A, Knockback is always on a direct line from Attacker to Target.

 

That is definition #1 for +1/4. The other definition is that the attack can come from any part of the character's body. Immobilise his hands and he can shoot eyebeams. However, if you choose this description for +1/4 then the attack cannot ignore intervening barriers (like Force Walls).

 

c) Indirect +1/2 - Very similar to +1/4, but combines both definitons of +1/4 (thus the +1/2, 1/4 + 1/4). The big advantage to this level is that not only can the object maneuver around the wall, but the origin point could be GunMan's hand, eyeballs or anything else. The nice thing (and the reson for the higher advantage cost) is that if you grab or immobilise his hands he can still attack. It should be noted that even at the +1/2 level, the attack still follows a generally straight path (eg if GunMan and Mook A are facing each other, the attack can only hit Mook A on the front of his body). Knockback remains in the direction on a direct line from Attacker to Target.

 

d) Indirect +3/4 - This is the grand-daddy of Indirect. The attack can originate from any point and travel in any path (including even looping around Mook A) and hit him in the back, side, front or wherever he may be missing armour (for instance) regardless of cover. It is also possible that this attack may afford some surprise. Knockback can be in whatever direction the character chooses.

 

BreakDown:

 

+1/4 - Either origin point can vary OR the power can avoid intervening barriers. KB is in straight path from attacker to target.

 

+1/2 - The power can both vary in origin AND avoid intervening barriers. KB is in straight path from attacker to target.

 

+3/4 - The power can vary in origin, avoid intervening barriers AND strike the target from any direction. KB is up to the choice of the attack, regardless of relative position of Attacker and Target.

 

That is how we've always broken it down. I've recently (within the past few minutes) reread Indirect. This is what I understand it to mean.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is this Indirect?

 

Much learned discourse on indirect: my feeling, for what it is worth, is that it probably a +1/4 but it depends on how much of an obstacle you want to be able to circumvent.

 

Anyway, that was not the point of the post. I know it is not exactly on-topic but one thing always worth remembering with indirect is that it simply expands the potential target areas. It does not grant any sort of sensory advantage to let you hit simething behind a wall unless you are either very lucky, using an AoE, or have some sort of enhanced sense.

 

I like Rapier's breakdown. I'd go with that if I were you.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Is this Indirect?

 

Just Joe, this is the most pertinent entry from the online FAQ:

 

Q: If a character wanted to build an attack that always originates from him, but can attack the target from any angle (e.g., a boomerang arrow), what level of Indirect would that require?

 

A: That’s a +1/2 Indirect.

 

If you'd like an official interpretation of your questions, I suggest posting a question(s) on the "Rule Questions" forum. That would also benefit the rest of us who might wonder about this in future, after the answers are added to the FAQ.

[Just Joe]

Re: Is this Indirect?

 

Actually, the lightning bolt thing is (and I looked it up) an actual example in the text for +1/4.

 

Ok, lemme break this down as how I see it:

 

[see above.]

OK I still don't have access to my 5ER, but I read the FrED version of indirect yet again and I noticed two mistakes I have been making.

 

1. The lightning bolt example travelling away from the attacker on a 2-D map but not directly away in 3-D is in fact given as an example of +1/4 indirect. If not for this example, I would interpret the text as meaning the attack really has to travel away from the attacker, not merely in a 2-D projection, but there it is.

 

2. Though I was correct that there is no mention of curving attacks in the write-up of indirect, there is a mention of bouncing (as a special effect, not the separate rule on bouncing).

 

Nevertheless, before the brief mention of this possibility near the end of the description of the advantage there is nothing in the write-up to indicate that indirect attacks do anything other than following a straight line. So as reasonable as your answers may be, I still don't think they strictly follow the FrED text. Is 5ER different in this respect? Does it actually mention indirect attacks curving?

 

One other thing, your account of the basic +1/4 level of the advantage skips what I read as the paradigmatic case of +1/4 indirect* -- an attack that originates from a fixed point not on the attacker's body (whether in the same hex or not) and goes in a straight line from the attacker toward the target.

 

* Again, unless 5ER changed this.

[Just Joe]

Re: Is this Indirect?

 

Just Joe, this is the most pertinent entry from the online FAQ:

 

Q: If a character wanted to build an attack that always originates from him, but can attack the target from any angle (e.g., a boomerang arrow), what level of Indirect would that require?

 

A: That’s a +1/2 Indirect.

That's very useful, thanks. I wonder if that was originally posted in the "Rules Question" forum. I would have thought that was more of a question of the best way to design something, which doesn't usually get answered there.

 

If you'd like an official interpretation of your questions' date=' I suggest posting a question(s) on the "Rule Questions" forum. That would also benefit the rest of us who might wonder about this in future, after the answers are added to the FAQ. [/quote']I'll think about it. I almost started there, but wasn't sure if I could word it in a way appropriate for that forum, and in any event decided it would be worth getting others' opinions.

[Rapier]

Re: Is this Indirect?

 

2. Though I was correct that there is no mention of curving attacks in the write-up of indirect, there is a mention of bouncing (as a special effect, not the separate rule on bouncing).

 

Nevertheless, before the brief mention of this possibility near the end of the description of the advantage there is nothing in the write-up to indicate that indirect attacks do anything other than following a straight line. So as reasonable as your answers may be, I still don't think they strictly follow the FrED text. Is 5ER different in this respect? Does it actually mention indirect attacks curving?

 

One other thing, your account of the basic +1/4 level of the advantage skips what I read as the paradigmatic case of +1/4 indirect* -- an attack that originates from a fixed point not on the attacker's body (whether in the same hex or not) and goes in a straight line from the attacker toward the target.

 

* Again, unless 5ER changed this.

 

I checked the FAQ, just for grins. Steve has expanded the definitions for +1/2. One as I stated above and the other that will allow the character to attack from any direction (while always having the same origin). This makes sense since +1/4 has two definitions and one of the +1/2 is the equal to both +1/4 definitions. +3/4 combines both +1/2 definitions.

 

The curving part is all SFX. The point is that Indirect can allow a character to ignore intervening obstacles. Curving, bouncing, teleporting ammo...whatever the SFX is, the game effect is that the attack can ignore intervening obstacles. Curving was just one of the examples I choose.

 

Indirect allows you to ignore intervening barriers, HOW that happens is complete SFX and up to you. The book is not going to list every single possible SFX for each and every power...the darned thing would weigh an additional 3200 kg and you'd need a 35 STR just to lift it off the table. You are purchasing a power with Indirect, so you already have some SFX in mind. You SFX is obviously going to allow you to ignore intervening barriers. How much of an advantage Indirect is worth is completely dependent on your SFX and how you envision the power.

 

You could define the SFX of an Indirect attack as a smart missle that will curve around (like a Magic Missle of d20 fame), a blast fired from a dimensional warrior that shoots his attack through dimensional portals, a round that will explode on command (eg the minute it passes the wall), or anything else you can think of.

 

Ok, the character has a Solitaire's-Widget-Type-Thingy. This depends on what level the character has purchased Indirect. If the character has +3/4 or +1/2 (can strike from any direction), the Widget can be anywhere and the attack can strike from any direction. If the character does not have those levels of Indirect the attack will always travel from the character's hex (there is no functional difference from a blast that originates from the character's hand or one that originates from a parrot sitting on his shoulder) towards the target and will do KB on a line from the Attacker to Target.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is this Indirect?

 

Great discussion so far on this topic!

 

I think that technically, officially and full rules compatably, what you are looking for is the +1/2, Just Joe. However, by your description, I think the attack is limited enough to warrent only a +1/4. The difference for me is that the attack always originates from the character rather than some spot away from the character, and the attack still effectively hits the target from the direction of the character. If the attack could turn full 180 around corners, or otherwise flip around and hit the target from any angle other than "away from the attacker", then this would definately be a +1/2 level. If not, then it's only +1/4.

[casualplayer]

Re: Is this Indirect?

 

There are three implied rules for all others-affecting powers:

 

1) Power must originate from specified area of the attacker's body.

2) Power must affect the revealed facing of target, unless it's an "affects whole target" type of power.

3) Intervening objects provide cover and protection.

 

Each +1/4 of Indirect lets you break one of these rules. Mix and match however you want.

 

Sorry if I'm Johnny-Come-Lately.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is this Indirect?

 

There are three implied rules for all others-affecting powers:

 

1) Power must originate from specified area of the attacker's body.

2) Power must affect the revealed facing of target, unless it's an "affects whole target" type of power.

3) Intervening objects provide cover and protection.

 

Each +1/4 of Indirect lets you break one of these rules. Mix and match however you want.

 

Sorry if I'm Johnny-Come-Lately.

 

That's a massively simplified, really easy to understand and more or less accurate description of Indirect. You are repped, good sir!