Fighting talk

[Sean Waters]

Hi.

 

Thinking about martial arts today.

 

I think that they are a really interesting part of Hero, and I’ve seen the basic idea copied across any number of systems.

 

It has been hard finding a fault…so I found two

 

The first (and it is just possible this has previously been mentioned somewhere on these boards) is cost/utility. Fast strike gives you +2d6 damage and +2 OCV for 4 points, and MA has a minimum spend of 10 points.

 

+2 to OCV with a single manoeuvre is 4 points, +2d6 damage with a single manoeuvre at 0 END is 10 points +1/2 (0 End) for 15 active and then –1/2 (Hand attack) and (even being very generous to MA) –1 (for ‘only with a single manoeuvre), which costs 6 points, so real cost is 10 points total.

 

However you could also buy (for example) defensive throw and martial grab, which adds some utility too, and you wind up with far more than 10 points of utility.

 

OK, so that’s the cost argument. Doesn’t bother me too much, especially if I up the minimum spend to 15 or so. However, therein lies the other, and far more fundamental problem...

 

Hero is a points balanced system predicated on the notion that (and I paraphrase) the points you spend are an indicator of the relative game-play value of the thing bought.

 

That just is not the case with martial arts. From a utility PoV there is little point in spending more than about 20 points, and that is pushing it. Even though there are some styles in which you can spend more: the completist could spend 38 points to learn every technique of Tae Kwon Do, but the added flexibility of being able to do both a Crescent Kick Block and an Arm Sweep Block is just not worth it. In reality you need both because you would use one technique or the other depending on where the attack is coming from. In game, such niceties are not modelled, and the result is that spending on martial arts is very much a matter of chasing diminishing returns; to be fair, they give different bonuses, but even so, the difference is minimal. A minimum spend package is great value; the full luxury package is a waste of time and effort, and points. This is a bit of a shame because it bucks the Hero trend: more points=more use.

 

Now I have no real solution here, other then messing with the cost of larger packages, but that’s just ugly. Hero used to have a very egalitarian MA system: points spent multiplied strength for damage purposes, but that is gone, and probably for the best.

 

I would like to see some real in-game utility though, for the Martial Artist who actually spends those extra points on martial arts rather than another point of speed, or a few more DCV levels, or whatever.

 

Any ideas?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fighting talk

 

point 1 - got nothing. Meh.

 

point 2 - are there difference Mechanics of Crasent Kick Block and Arm Sweep Block? Or Mechincally are they simply both a Block Maneuver?

 

If both are just a Block Maneuver, I've always assumed that if you buy Block then the SFX of Martial Arts covers either type (Foot Block for low attacks or Arm Block for high attacks). No need to buy it twice.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fighting talk

 

point 1 - got nothing. Meh.

 

point 2 - are there difference Mechanics of Crasent Kick Block and Arm Sweep Block? Or Mechincally are they simply both a Block Maneuver?

 

If both are just a Block Maneuver, I've always assumed that if you buy Block then the SFX of Martial Arts covers either type (Foot Block for low attacks or Arm Block for high attacks). No need to buy it twice.

 

Point 2 - they are both blocks but have different OCV/DCV bonuses, so they are very similar but not the same - although the added utility is basically paying points to move your OCV/DCV about, which is probably rarely worth it.

[Markdoc]

Re: Fighting talk

 

Both points have been mentioned. Spending less than 15-20 points nets you a big fat bonus. Spending more than 20-25 points nets you bupkiss (or pretty near).

 

The solutions are, as far as I can work out...

 

to problem number #1). Well, there isn't really one apart from insisting that everyone who wants MA buy at least 20 points, which is a bit harsh.

 

To problem #2) Don't spend more than 20-25 points on MA. Assume that variations on the same maneuver are covered by "special effects".

 

Yes, I know, neither situation is entirely satisfactory. Since I have an unhealthy fixation with martial artist characters, I made up my own system, which has served me well, lo, these many years.

 

http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/martialarts.html

 

cheers, Mark

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Fighting talk

 

Point #1: fair enough, although Martial Maneuvers do less Knockback than normal HTH maneuvers, so in campaigns that use Knockback that is a slight relative detriment. HA also benefits more from being Advantaged than MA Maneuvers do.

 

For Point #2, there are some potential ameliorating factors. One is SFX; by default every attack is supposed to have a defined point of origin, so defining one Strike Maneuver as a punch and another Maneuver as a kick can allow someone whose arms or legs have been immobilized to still fight. Another is Multiple-Power Attacks, which you can perform by combining several Martial Maneuvers, so there can be a benefit to variety. I also want to add that I've often chosen Maneuvers in combat based on the bonuses or penalties that they confer, especially against other Martial Artists; I like the tactical options that they give me. I admit I may be in the minority on that, though.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fighting talk

 

One thing that I can say for the current system (well, I could say lots of things, but this one might not be entirely obvious) is that a character who has ranged attacks can buy martial arts for their energy blast (OK, I'm super-centric; I admit it). Whilst a ranged martial throw might stretch credulity, a ranged takedown or offensive strike is not a problem.

 

Odd then that I have never done it.

 

Hmm.

[OddHat]

Re: Fighting talk

 

Well. I'm pretty much with MarkDoc on this.

 

Once you have five or six maneuver bases in your Martial Arts package, you really don't need any more. Combat skill levels and SFX can take care of the rest. In part this is because mechanics and SFX blur together in HERO's Martial Arts packages. I'm not sure this is a problem.

 

Martial Arts in some ways resemble a power framework. After you buy all the bases, you're really just buying minor variations in CV and DC, though you can also invest in extra DC directly. A Multipower is a similar case; the first few variations on the theme of Energy Blast you buy certainly add utility in line with their cost. After a certain point, one more mix of advantages on your EB isn't going to make enough practical difference to be worth purchasing another slot. You'd be better off just purchasing a bigger pool or switching to a VPP.

 

Maybe the axiom in HERO is not that "more points on variety always increases utility" but that "More points on variety generally increases utility to a point, after which more points on raw power is a better choice".

 

Divorce maneuver bases (Strike, Block, Exert, NND, etc) from SFX (Crescent kick, Monkey Steals the Peach) and this becomes much less of an issue. Allow Multipower Attacks to be made freely with maneuvers using the same Base (Kick-Punch Strike Combinations) and the guy who purchased every form of Strike is now getting a bargain.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fighting talk

 

Well. I'm pretty much with MarkDoc on this.

 

Once you have five or six maneuver bases in your Martial Arts package, you really don't need any more. Combat skill levels and SFX can take care of the rest. In part this is because mechanics and SFX blur together in HERO's Martial Arts packages. I'm not sure this is a problem.

 

Martial Arts in some ways resemble a power framework. After you buy all the bases, you're really just buying minor variations in CV and DC, though you can also invest in extra DC directly. A Multipower is a similar case; the first few variations on the theme of Energy Blast you buy certainly add utility in line with their cost. After a certain point, one more mix of advantages on your EB isn't going to make enough practical difference to be worth purchasing another slot. You'd be better off just purchasing a bigger pool or switching to a VPP.

 

Maybe the axiom in HERO is not that "more points on variety always increases utility" but that "More points on variety generally increases utility to a point, after which more points on raw power is a better choice".

 

Divorce maneuver bases (Strike, Block, Exert, NND, etc) from SFX (Crescent kick, Monkey Steals the Peach) and this becomes much less of an issue. Allow Multipower Attacks to be made freely with maneuvers using the same Base (Kick-Punch Strike Combinations) and the guy who purchased every form of Strike is now getting a bargain.

 

 

0. Marcdoc wrote his own rules as he was not happy with the existing ones

 

1. You can use MPAs with various MA attacks can you? That's just wrong. I mean, you are using STR for every attack, so surely that contravenes the rules?

 

2. The point remains that returns diminish. I appreciate that this is also so with MPs, but MPs can contain anything. Attacks, defences, movement, wierd stuff. The point of diminishing is much higher.

 

3. I'm off to bed. Good night.

 

4. OK, I lied: my point (as much as I ever have a point) is that it would be nice to have a system where spending more got you more (and I'm not just talking column inches on the character sheet.

 

5. Good night: really this time

[OddHat]

Re: Fighting talk

 

0. Marcdoc wrote his own rules as he was not happy witht he esisting ones

 

1. You can use MPAs with various MA attacks can you? That's just wrong. I mean, you are using STR for every attack, so surely that contravenes the rules?

 

You can use MPAs with Martial Arts. Allowing Punch-Kick Combinations is a stretch (I only allow them as a SFX for Sweep), but yes, you have the option.

 

2. The point remains that returns diminish. I appreciate that this is also so with MPs, but MPs can contain anything. Attacks, defences, movement, wierd stuff. The point of diminishing is much higher.

 

Yes, returns diminish with Breadth, not Height, in every framework. After a certain point, buying greater Variety is less advantageous. Buying greater Power remains advantageous much longer. With MA, the ceiling on Variety is a bit lower, but you still have Strikes, NNDs, Flashes, Killing Attacks, Grabs, Escapes, Blocks, Dodges, Pushing, Resisting, and doubtless more that I'm forgetting. That's a good mix. In the end, it's the same Breadth versus Height structure as every other framework and list.

 

3. I'm off to bed. Good night.

 

Night.

 

4. OK, I lied: my point (as much as I ever have a point) is that it would be nice to have a system where spending more got you more (and I'm not just talking column inches on the character sheet.

 

It does, if you spend that "More" on extra Damage Classes (Height) rather than more maneuvers (Breadth). Besides, there's usually room for MA related Skills, Perks, Talents, and Powers.

 

5. Good night: really this time

 

Night again.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Fighting talk

 

This is in response to your first point Sean. In the example you gave, "Fast Strike" comes across as being a very nice deal. But, in order to get that deal, you have to buy 10 points worth of maneuvers. So, you can't just have "Fast Strike", you must also buy 6 points of other maneuvers. I think this helps to counterbalance the cheapness of the maneuvers.

[Markdoc]

Re: Fighting talk

 

I also want to add that I've often chosen Maneuvers in combat based on the bonuses or penalties that they confer' date=' especially against other Martial Artists; I like the tactical options that they give me. I admit I may be in the minority on that, though.[/quote']

 

No, this is good. The problem is, though that if you build you character like this, expect a butt-whippin' from the guy who bought 17 points of basic maneuvers and then spent points on some CSLs.

 

Character design should not be all about points, but in my opinion, it shouldn't *punish* you for following genre guidelines. As it stands, someone who want to build an "old master, who knows all the techniques" is going to regularly get whipped in a fight by "Louie, the guy who spent a whole 6 months learning martial arts by mail order" because Louie has an extra 20 points he *didn't* spend on redundant maneuvers to spend on STR, DEX and CSL. That just ain't right.

 

cheers

[Markdoc]

Re: Fighting talk

 

This is in response to your first point Sean. In the example you gave' date=' "Fast Strike" comes across as being a very nice deal. But, in order to get that deal, you have to buy 10 points worth of maneuvers. So, you can't just have "Fast Strike", you must also buy 6 points of other maneuvers. I think this helps to counterbalance the cheapness of the maneuvers.[/quote']

 

It would - if there weren't other bargains in the same basket. For example, martial dodge gets you 2 slightly limited 5 point CSLs (10 active) in DCV for 4 (IIRC) points. The minimum buy of 10 point forces you to buy 2 or 3 manevers - but what you get is worth far more than 10 points, because you can buy non-overlapping powers. By itself, I don't see that as a problem. Partly because some bonus to show the "efficiency" of martial arts training is reasonable (think of it as a kind of power framework), partly because as you buy more martial arts, the bonus vanishes, because you are buying the same powers again. That reduces the potential for abuse.

 

The problem is that these diminishing returns become extreme quite quickly. Essentially the way the current system works is "the more martial arts you learn, the worse a fighter you become" (relative to combatants built on similar points, of course).

 

It wsn't a problem with the original martial arts packages - because they were, to be honest pretty limited, and were really designed to bought in one lump. I think what happened is that in a drive for completeness, and to expand options, Steve forgot the distinction between powers and special effects. The result is that the current system has great flavour, but some significant mechanical defects.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fighting talk

 

I'm just going to defer to Markdoc on this whole thread because he's making the points I wanted to make only better.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Fighting talk

 

Hmm. So the question is, how do you provide an incentive for martial artists to continue to purchase martial arts rather than use them as a supplement to increased characteristics and skill levels?

 

Surely the simple response would be to stack some advantages for multiples of manouvres as long as MAs are being used and, potentially, to make CSLs more expensive to use for MAs.

 

Your problem here is to acknowledge the bonus that martial arts give at the start and continue to add to that without significantly unbalaning everything else.

 

Would it be worth looking at some sort of progression like the D&D monk class where greater immersion in the arts provided almost magical side benefits. I could see this almost as a VPP that grows with the character and allows a limited set of effects such as immune to poisons, longevity etc etc.

 

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Fighting talk

 

I'm just going to defer to Markdoc on this whole thread because he's making the points I wanted to make only better.

 

You're such a humble chap!

[OddHat]

Re: Fighting talk

 

No' date=' this is good. The problem is, though that if you build you character like this, expect a butt-whippin' from the guy who bought 17 points of basic maneuvers and then spent points on some CSLs.[/quote']

 

True enough, though a case can be made that those CSLs and even stats might, from an SFX point of view, reflect training. It is true that the intuitive mechanical path to creating a Master (buying all the maneuvers) is not the most mechanically effective path to building that archetype.

 

Character design should not be all about points, but in my opinion, it shouldn't *punish* you for following genre guidelines. As it stands, someone who want to build an "old master, who knows all the techniques" is going to regularly get whipped in a fight by "Louie, the guy who spent a whole 6 months learning martial arts by mail order" because Louie has an extra 20 points he *didn't* spend on redundant maneuvers to spend on STR, DEX and CSL. That just ain't right.

 

On the other hand, the Master could spend his points on buying all the Bases (Strike, NND, KA, Target Falls, etc), extra DCs, and skill levels of his own to reflect various attacks, etc. At that point, he's much more likely to smack Louie into next Tuesday. From a SFX POV, he remains a master. Unfortunately, again, this is not as intuitive as just grabbing all the maneuvers.

 

The problem is that these diminishing returns become extreme quite quickly. Essentially the way the current system works is "the more martial arts you learn, the worse a fighter you become" (relative to combatants built on similar points, of course).

 

I'd change "the more martial arts you learn" to "after you have all the bases, the more maneuvers you learn", but otherwise agreed.

 

It wsn't a problem with the original martial arts packages - because they were, to be honest pretty limited, and were really designed to bought in one lump. I think what happened is that in a drive for completeness, and to expand options, Steve forgot the distinction between powers and special effects. The result is that the current system has great flavour, but some significant mechanical defects.

 

Agreed here. The fix I'd suggest would be to drop all the SFX names from Maneuvers, and to make it more explicit in the Martial Arts packages that a single maeuver can represent range of attacks or defenses, especially in combination with skill levels.

[Markdoc]

Re: Fighting talk

 

On the other hand' date=' the Master could spend his points on buying all the Bases (Strike, NND, KA, Target Falls, etc), extra DCs, and skill levels of his own to reflect various attacks, etc. At that point, he's much more likely to smack Louie into next Tuesday. From a SFX POV, he remains a master. Unfortunately, again, this is not as intuitive as just grabbing all the maneuvers.[/quote']

 

Well, at this point, the master doesn't automatically beat up on Louie (he has some extra flexibility, Louie might have a slight edge in DCV or damage) - but nether does Louie whup up on the master. I can live with that. In fact, mechanically the ancient master and Louie don't actually look that different: both have 3-6 maneuvers and some CSLs. While I'm all for special effects, it seems ..... unsatisfying.

 

Agreed here. The fix I'd suggest would be to drop all the SFX names from Maneuvers' date=' and to make it more explicit in the Martial Arts packages that a single maeuver can represent range of attacks or defenses, especially in combination with skill levels.[/quote']

 

That is one way to the truth, Grasshopper. But removing the maneuver names is like eating sushi rice without the wine and salt in it. It lacks flavour.

 

Another approach I toyed with before moving to the system I have now, is to define a small number of "core maneuvers" for each martial art, a slightly larger range of "Standard maneuvers" and then suggest "upgrade maneuvers".

 

To take one example, Aikijutsu would have a defensive throw, defensive block, martial dodge and joint lock as core maneuvers (at the standard price). That's the minimum requirement to have aikijutsu as a martial art. If you wanted, you could also buy joint break, defensive strike, martial grab, martial disarm and martial escape as standard maneuvers (at the standard price). However if you wanted martial throw, this would be an upgrade - you already have one throw maneuver, and martial throw gives you nothing defensive throw doesn't. You'd only ever buy it for flavour. So it costs 0 points to add. If you wanted to add Grappling throw (probably not appropriate for aiki, but just as an example), it gives you more damage and a better DCV (2DC and +1DC) than defensive throw but less OCV (-1). So it'd cost you 3 points, not 5, to add to your style (I think: I'm going from memory here ).

 

In other words, calculate the cost of each new maneuver using the standard rules for building new martial arts, but use maneuvers you already know as the base. In other words, if you have a strike that gives you +2DC, buying one that adds +4 DC, means paying for +2DC, not +4. Many maneuvers would end up costing 1, 2 or even 0 points under this approach, which is fine: they add little if any extra utility, and cost relatively little, if anything. That way the master can have dozens of maneuvers, without paying out the wazoo for it. Louie can have the basics. They are still balanced against each other - the master gets a wee bit more flexibility, Louie gets more raw power.

 

The drawback, however, is huge: each martial art would have to built from scratch and the same maneuver might well cost different amounts in different styles. Theoretically that's not a problem - in practice, it's a heck of a lot of work, which is why I went the route of designing a hero system compatible method from scratch.

 

Designing and writing up the system took far less time (an evening or two), but now it's done, I can simply take the maneuvers I want from UMA, drop them straight into a multipower and voila! Done. It takes no longer to do than to write up a character using the standard system and converting existing characters is easy-peasy.

 

Plus, it's more flexible. If you want to add mystic monk powers or extra damage classes to your martial art, you can just add them directly: you don't end up with two mechanistically different types of martial art. Since I wanted high-powered, wuxia-style martial arts, as well as regular martial arts, this was a big plus for me.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fighting talk

 

Agreed here. The fix I'd suggest would be to drop all the SFX names from Maneuvers' date=' and to make it more explicit in the Martial Arts packages that a single maeuver can represent range of attacks or defenses, especially in combination with skill levels.[/quote']

 

The problem here is that there are rarely absolutely identical manouvres mechanically in a single martial art - similar ones, to be sure, but you might have both martial strike and fast strike, i.e both give +2d6 damage, MS gives +2 DCV and FS gives +2 OCV.

 

One option - which would have to be combined with an increased based cost to offset the increased utility - would be to allow OCV/DCV to be shifted at will within a manouvre. E.g. you could shift the +2 OCV for fast strije to +1/+1 or 0/+2. The maximum bonus you can acheive is the highest bonus in the manouvre as bought. This does not directly solve the problem but does mean there would be no need to buy multiple similar manouvres, so the number of manouvres you might want o buy is reduced.

 

Another option - and this is going to slow things down but has something of an element of realism to it - would be to require competing martial artists (or anyone fighting a martial artist) to make an analyse roll, with a penalty equal to the number of manouvres the opponent has bought in martial arts, and a bonus equal tot he number of manouvres you have. Failure imposed a -1OCV penalty for every 2 points you fail by. That would at least mean that the old Grand Master with all 18 Kung Fu manouvres is nigh impossible to hit as he has a counter for everything - unless he is fighting someone equally Grand Masterly.

 

This will make martial artists far more effective against untrained fighters, so there would have to be a costs reflection - say 5 to 10 points spent up front just to buy any martial arts. It would also mean that martial artists would almost always be spending points on the analyse skill, which would be appropriate IMO and indicate an additional cost, albeit one that does reap rewards.

[OddHat]

Re: Fighting talk

 

Well' date=' at this point, the master doesn't automatically beat up on Louie (he has some extra flexibility, Louie might have a slight edge in DCV or damage) - but nether does Louie whup up on the master. I can live with that.[/quote']

 

True enough, in a game without Martial MPAs. In a game where Martial MPAs come into the picture, Louie is likely toast. If the Master has a KA, Strike, NND, and Martial Flash, he can throw them together (so long as the GM permits it). Louie's slight edge in characteristics doesn't make up for that. If those rules aren't used, it's more even. Ideally, in a point based system, Louie the 150 point brawler and Liang Wong the 150 point Wu Shu artist should be on fairly even terms.

 

In fact, mechanically the ancient master and Louie don't actually look that different: both have 3-6 maneuvers and some CSLs. While I'm all for special effects, it seems ..... unsatisfying.

 

True. Another artifact of the system as it stands.

That is one way to the truth, Grasshopper. But removing the maneuver names is like eating sushi rice without the wine and salt in it. It lacks flavour.

 

We can add the flavor back in by using maneuver names and SFX in the write up, just as we do when writing up powers.

[OddHat]

Re: Fighting talk

 

The problem here is that there are rarely absolutely identical manouvres mechanically in a single martial art - similar ones' date=' to be sure, but you might have both martial strike and fast strike, i.e both give +2d6 damage, MS gives +2 DCV and FS gives +2 OCV.[/quote']

 

Buy two or more combat skill levels and switch them around. You'll end up with slightly different numbers from a mechanics POV, but from a SFX POV in the game it works fine to simulate multiple types of strikes.

One option - which would have to be combined with an increased based cost to offset the increased utility - would be to allow OCV/DCV to be shifted at will within a manouvre. E.g. you could shift the +2 OCV for fast strije to +1/+1 or 0/+2. The maximum bonus you can acheive is the highest bonus in the manouvre as bought. This does not directly solve the problem but does mean there would be no need to buy multiple similar manouvres, so the number of manouvres you might want o buy is reduced.

 

Also works fine. I'd say it should cost 1 point per 2 points of CV that may be switched. However, specificly, what problem doesn't it solve? It seems to work fine for eliminating the percieved need to keep buying maneuvers even after you have all the Maneuver Bases.

[Cancer]

Re: Fighting talk

 

A novel idea that comes from Seventh Sea's swordsman schools concept is that each school has, by its nature, a certain set of weaknesses which the knowledgeable or experienced can exploit; these are the "Exploit weakness" knacks in that system. This seems like it would extend straightforwardly to HERO's Martial Arts style framework, provided the styles were well enough defined in the campaign to make those useful. Though I haven't run a campaign making use of this (yet ), it seems plausible that one could make available cheap CSL's explicitly against specific MA schools or styles.

 

Probably this would require the GM to place strict limits on the MA styles (and, perhaps, create something like the Language Chart to describe the relationships among them) in his campaign to avoid munchkining and creation of exotic styles to avoid the martial arts masters, who would have Exploit Weakness adds versus a number of existing styles. But, that would make real mastery a trade-off between buying stats, syles, and Exploit skills against existing styles.

[Markdoc]

Re: Fighting talk

 

Isn't that what KS: analyze style is for?

 

cheers, Mark

[Cancer]

Re: Fighting talk

 

I'll have to re-read my books when I get home to see what that does for you, and mull it over in my campaign context.

[Susano]

Re: Fighting talk

 

It wsn't a problem with the original martial arts packages - because they were' date=' to be honest pretty limited, and were really designed to bought in one lump. I think what happened is that in a drive for completeness, and to expand options, Steve forgot the distinction between powers and special effects. The result is that the current system has great flavour, but some significant mechanical defects.[/quote']

 

Allow me to point out that Steve Long didn't create the "modern" HERO System martial arts maneuvers and design rules. Aaron Allston did in 4th Edition Ninja Hero. However, Steve did expand on those concepts in 4th and 5th Edition Ultimate Martial Artist. So some of the issues with names, SFX, and duplication of maneuvers dates back to NH.

 

Of course, I may be misunderstanding your comment.

[Markdoc]

Re: Fighting talk

 

Allow me to point out that Steve Long didn't create the "modern" HERO System martial arts maneuvers and design rules. Aaron Allston did in 4th Edition Ninja Hero. However' date=' Steve did expand on those concepts in 4th and 5th Edition [i']Ultimate Martial Artist[/i]. So some of the issues with names, SFX, and duplication of maneuvers dates back to NH.

 

Of course, I may be misunderstanding your comment.

 

No, actually, you're right - I never owned a copy of Ninja Hero and I forgot about it.

 

cheers, Mark