Superpowered Worlds

[David Johnston]

DC has all those Legion worlds where everyone has one or more super powers. Marvel has the Kree and the Skrulls who respectively have strength and shapeshifting. This is a thread for discussing how that would affect the technological development of those worlds.

 

For example, assume you have a species where the average individual can easily carry a ton (with the superchampions of the world going over one hundred tons). For a start this would mean they'd never domesticate draft animals. Any plow or wagon pulling or pushing they do themselves. Metallurgy would advance quickly, driven by their need to make weapons that could stand up to their physical strength and the ability of their blacksmiths to work harder metals. Archery would never develop; javelin or throwing would be so much more effective. Gunpowder on the other hand...well the ability to carry a cannon and stand against its recoil would be pretty useful even to super-strong people. The steam engine would never get off the starting blocks, but electricity has plenty of applications that strength can't substitute for.

[Sundog]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

I don't agree with you as far as steam goes. While a ton-carrying slave team could drag as much as an early loco, the ability of the steam engine to work ALL DAY would make it worth developing.

 

Which brings me to the main point: Slavery. Slavery started to die out on earth with the development of the horse collar; with one of those a horse becomes more economical to keep than a man. Simply, a human and a horse require roughly the same costs to keep working and healthy, and prior to the horse collar, a human was more useful, being self-motivating.

 

However, with a horse collar to strain against, a horse can do much more work than a human and keep it up for longer. So, economically, it became more sensible to keep a horse than a slave. Slavery died out slowly, save in certain specialist fields - such as cotton picking, which only a human could do.

 

However, if your prospective species can carry a ton apiece, such a cultural shift might not occur until well into the high industrial period, perhaps equivalent to our 1950s. Slavery might well have been a part of the general culture for so long that no major abolitionist movement ever got off the ground.

 

So there's one huge cultural difference, and one any 21st century hero is going to have a major problem with: institutionalized slavery.

[Captain Emu]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

I would say that the physical capabilities of a species aren't going to prevent them developing technologies. A lot of technology is developed as a "labor-saving" measure or to accomplish somethign they cannot do. If anything they'd develope things on a grander scale. If the average citizen can lift one-ton blocks of stone, might not every citizen live in some Cyclopian manor house?

 

You also have to imagine that there is likely a reason that that race has those abilities - some environmental concern that caused its developement (though in comics this isn't always the case).

[David Johnston]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

But when they can do something, an inferior technological way to do it simply won't catch on. Hero's steam engine was nothing but a toy because it couldn't do anything that muscle power couldn't do better. They didn't keep working on it. They dropped it, because it didn't come close enough to having a practical application. 18 centuries later, as a result of the invention of the pressure cooker, the piston style steam engine was invented. It had enough power to do something people actually needed done and couldn't do as well with muscle power, pump water. But a world of people who are a hundred times as strong as we are is a world where they could just build a muscle powered pump to do the job and never bother solving the technical problems required to create a steam engine to do the job. The world is full of solutions for which there is no problem. The steam engine would be one such solution for people that strong. While the steam engine might be invented just to save them from boredom, that of course only applies if they don't have slaves to do it. And Sundog already made explicit what I was thinking about the consequences of never getting draft animals.

[Vestnik]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

Captain Emu, can I ask you where you got your avatar from? I could have sworn I've seen it someplace.

[Vestnik]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

Do these super-strength-powered people live in an environment with correspondly powered-up animals (predators etc.), or are they at the top of the strength/food chain and nothing else can threaten them? Methinks that might make a difference.

 

Interesting thought experiment BTY.

[Yansuf]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

Do these super-strength-powered people live in an environment with correspondly powered-up animals (predators etc.), or are they at the top of the strength/food chain and nothing else can threaten them? Methinks that might make a difference.

 

Interesting thought experiment BTY.

 

That's a very good point.

Any "realistic" rational for why the inhabitants of a world have "super powers" really has to address this. If there was no survival reason, why did the species ever develop intelligence?

[David Johnston]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

Well, the Kree, my original inspiration for this situation were eventually decided to have been the result of alien genetic tinkering with them when they were still in the stone age (and the Inhumans were the product of an attempt by the Kree to duplicate their own genesis using stone-age humans).

 

But there's plenty of room for variation. Assuming that there are superstrong animals then draft animals might become more viable. However, the soil hasn't gotten any harder and the size of a practical cart hasn't gotten any bigger so draft animals would probably be more desirable for speed than power.

[Alverant]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

Do these super-strength-powered people live in an environment with correspondly powered-up animals (predators etc.)' date=' or are they at the top of the strength/food chain and nothing else can threaten them? Methinks that might make a difference.[/quote']

 

That's what I was wondering since I read the first post. Why the people and not the animals? For that matter, why not the plants? Would metelgury be developed until the need for electricity if wood were as strong as steel? Gunpowder and archery would still be developed because while you could chuck a spear a long ways, there is the problem with accuracy. Throwing is less accurate than using a bow or rifle.

 

Which brings up another issue. If you're stronger, then you're tougher. The Ultimate Brick even talked about what happens if your PD is less than the DC from Strength. So how would increased toughness affect society's developent?

[Captain Emu]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

I remember even the mighty Alien from the movies was put in its place in a few issues of Dark Horse's series. On their homeworld, they themselves had predators that kept them in check.

 

One could imagine a planet of super-powered humanoids would have similarly and propotionately powerful wildlife, it too having had to evolve in the same environment.

[Captain Emu]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

Captain Emu' date=' can I ask you where you got your avatar from? I could have sworn I've seen it someplace.[/quote']

 

To be honest, I can't recall. I know if you do a search for "Emu" you'll pind it.

[Publius]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

Interesting thread. Speaking from an evolutionary angle (purely as an armchair sort of guy, my knowledge of the subject is strictly pedestrian) this raises some interesting issues: the Neanderthals were much stronger than we are today, so why didn't they advance? While some folks point at intellect (such as the inability to manipulate symbols) causing them to be left behind in the dust, there is a darker possibility that the thread suggests: they were too well adapted. Or more precisely, they didn't have to develop the same level of technology as the homo sapiens sapiens, and thus got left behind.

 

Human evolution could in part be caused by the fact that certain desirable traits have been emphasized by need. One of these traits is intellect, tool-using intellect to be precise. Because we were better equipped to deal with the environment (in part due to tool use spawned by the relative lack of musculature) we outlasted them on the evolutionary scale (although looking at some of my Freshmen I have come to realize that throwbacks may indeed be among us).

 

Would these 1-ton lifters have developed technology? They would have been able to survive in relatively primative conditions much better than puny humans. Even if the animals and plants were denser et al. the 1-ton lifters would have had an easier time of it in the evolutionary sense and thus might not have become tool-users.

 

But as stated before, I may be totally off base here. This is not my subject. Interestingly enough, it does set the stage for the oft-used cliche of the big strong alien culture that is somehow always primitive compared to everyone else around them.

[Captain Emu]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

Human evolution could in part be caused by the fact that certain desirable traits have been emphasized by need. One of these traits is intellect, tool-using intellect to be precise. Because we were better equipped to deal with the environment (in part due to tool use spawned by the relative lack of musculature) we outlasted them on the evolutionary scale (although looking at some of my Freshmen I have come to realize that throwbacks may indeed be among us).

 

Would these 1-ton lifters have developed technology? They would have been able to survive in relatively primative conditions much better than puny humans. Even if the animals and plants were denser et al. the 1-ton lifters would have had an easier time of it in the evolutionary sense and thus might not have become tool-users.

 

But as stated before, I may be totally off base here. This is not my subject. Interestingly enough, it does set the stage for the oft-used cliche of the big strong alien culture that is somehow always primitive compared to everyone else around them.

 

Actually, your point has been suggested by the experts. The overspecialization of the Neanderthals has been disgusted as a possible reason for their undoing. It was the need as much as the innate ability to adapt that may have allowed our direct ancestors to successfully ride the wave of evolution.

[Susano]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

Hmm... let me see.

 

When I wrote up the Nehkojin for Digital Hero, I stated that their culture had ground to a halt at a certain point. Mainly because the Nehkojin didn't feel the need (or pressure) to advance beyond what they had. The had reached a comfortable level of technological development and where content. And when you consider most every Nehkojin was super-strong, touch, fast, and had energy manipulation powers, you can see why they'd not really see the need for anything else.

 

To quote:

 

"Nehkojin culture is also extremely old, and has seems to have remained virtually unchanged across the millennia since the Malvans first discovered them (and before that). Their innate powers, when coupled with their constant infighting, apparently led to a technological plateau, where the Nehkojin didn’t feel the need (or pressure) to continue to advance technologically beyond such developments as plate armor, swords and axes, cattle-drawn wagons, and wind-powered ships."

[Starfighter]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

Actually' date=' your point has been suggested by the experts. The overspecialization of the Neanderthals has been disgusted as a possible reason for their undoing. It was the need as much as the innate ability to adapt that may have allowed our direct ancestors to successfully ride the wave of evolution.[/quote']

Yep. It's not enough to be the biggest and strongest, you also need the intelligence to adapt to change, which the Neanderthals apparently didn't have.

[Publius]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

Actually' date=' your point has been suggested by the experts. The overspecialization of the Neanderthals has been disgusted as a possible reason for their undoing. It was the need as much as the innate ability to adapt that may have allowed our direct ancestors to successfully ride the wave of evolution.[/quote']Well heck, score one for the social scientist

 

I love how it sort of ties in with one of the tropes of sci-fi. And of course why those little aliens with the great big noggins will be building tripods to rain down the pain on us

 

Which reminds me of the new overlord...

 

Stuart Mackenzie: Look at the size of that boy's head.

Tony Giardino: Shhh!

Stuart Mackenzie: I'm not kidding, it's like an orange on a toothpick.

Tony Giardino: Shhh, you're going to give the boy a complex.

Stuart Mackenzie: Well, that's a huge noggin. That's a virtual planetoid. Has it's own weather system. HEAD! MOVE!

[薔薇語]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

Interesting thread. Speaking from an evolutionary angle (purely as an armchair sort of guy' date=' my knowledge of the subject is strictly pedestrian) this raises some interesting issues: the Neanderthals were much stronger than we are today, so why didn't they advance? While some folks point at intellect (such as the inability to manipulate symbols) causing them to be left behind in the dust, there is a darker possibility that the thread suggests: they were too well adapted. Or more precisely, they didn't have to develop the same level of technology as the homo sapiens sapiens, and thus got left behind.[/quote']

 

Also if I remember correctly another couple reasons for the extention of the N. First being that they wern't migratory like humans so unless they had a large scale comunity they would simple reach the extent that there gene pool could provide for before breeding 'blue bloods.' Also there is evidence that in not all cases did humans and N. have a "good working relationship." Even if a single human migratory group couldn't overcome them, over time unless they repopulated there race with new blood they would wear out even faster. Lastly there might be a chance that Humans and N. were capable of breeding with eachother in which case it could be a simple matter of humans possessing the dominate gene codes and over thousands of years just absorbing them.

 

Also there are a lot of other factors to take into account when it comes to how a species would develope even if they had super str. Weather or not they use animals could simple be a mater of population. If they produce off-spring like Vulcans(sorry couldn't think of a real world example off hand) where they only mate once every 7 years and mate for life with only one partner. Then they would use animals out of convience of labor.

 

ok say they mate like humans, how agressive are they? humans have a natural agressive drive to them. But a hourse doesn't(most herbavours don't). So would there be any natural drive for them to force things/people/world to bend to there will.

 

Lastly it is just as someone else had brought up. If they have no need to be better, ie nothing can harm them. Why become better?

 

La Rose

[PhaseKitty]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

DC has all those Legion worlds where everyone has one or more super powers. Marvel has the Kree and the Skrulls who respectively have strength and shapeshifting. This is a thread for discussing how that would affect the technological development of those worlds.

 

For example, assume you have a species where the average individual can easily carry a ton (with the superchampions of the world going over one hundred tons). For a start this would mean they'd never domesticate draft animals. Any plow or wagon pulling or pushing they do themselves.

 

Nope. People can carry plenty. People can drag carts. People can pull plows, even, and have done so when "ol' Betsy done up and died." They didn't need draft animals when they first domesticated them. The "need" grew by having.

 

Draft animals were/are used because they're convenient. Technology does not get used because it is practical, but because it is desired. Less than wonderfully well working technology DOES get put into use. If that weren't so, "damn all" technology would ever get used.

 

People are as interested in convenience as in need. Unless, of course, the übermuscloids have completely different motivation than Homo sapiens sapiens.

 

[David Johnston]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

Nope. People can carry plenty. People can drag carts. People can pull plows, even, and have done so when "ol' Betsy done up and died."

 

 

But anyone who has tried that will be able to tell you just why they want a draft animal or motor to do it instead. How many people think they want a machine to cut their butter?

[Vestnik]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

To be honest' date=' I can't recall. I know if you do a search for "Emu" you'll pind it.[/quote']

 

Exactly the same image is being used as part of an advertising campaign here in Russia. It was a bit weird to see it seeing it as your avatar.

[Vestnik]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

That's what I was wondering since I read the first post. Why the people and not the animals? For that matter, why not the plants? Would metelgury be developed until the need for electricity if wood were as strong as steel? Gunpowder and archery would still be developed because while you could chuck a spear a long ways, there is the problem with accuracy. Throwing is less accurate than using a bow or rifle.

 

Which brings up another issue. If you're stronger, then you're tougher. The Ultimate Brick even talked about what happens if your PD is less than the DC from Strength. So how would increased toughness affect society's developent?

 

Are these super-people disease-free, or does their planet have super-germs? How long do they live?

[transmetahuman]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

I'm thinking you couldn't pay me enough to be in charge of taxation and government on a world full of shapeshifters like the Skrulls or whatever Chameleon Boy's race is called. I guess anything we'd recognize as social order implies that the race themselves developped a way to tell each other apart; this might be useful for the heros if they can find out how...

[Vestnik]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

I'm thinking you couldn't pay me enough to be in charge of taxation and government on a world full of shapeshifters like the Skrulls or whatever Chameleon Boy's race is called. I guess anything we'd recognize as social order implies that the race themselves developped a way to tell each other apart; this might be useful for the heros if they can find out how...

 

Maybe they smell differences in each others scents?

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

Metallurgy would advance quickly' date=' driven by their need to make weapons that could stand up to their physical strength and the ability of their blacksmiths to work harder metals. [/quote']

But science doesn't necessarily advance in certain fields just because we want it to. In fact, I could almost see it going the other way: early metals are so weak and useless that they abandon metalurgy altogether.

 

Archery would never develop; javelin or throwing would be so much more effective.

Not necessarily, they'd just need to build bows designed for their strength. (500-pound recurve anyone?)

 

But anyone who has tried that will be able to tell you just why they want a draft animal or motor to do it instead. How many people think they want a machine to cut their butter?

While my wife hasn't (yet) bought us a butter-cutting machine, our kitchen is full of a variety of chopping/dicing/grating gadgets, some electric, some not. 90% of them do something that I could do by hand; the machine simply does it faster or allows me to do something else while it's pureeing. Ditto for dishwashers, washing machines, and probably the majority of other household appliances. Machines aren't just to do things we can't do ourselves; they're also for doing things we don't want to do ourselves.

 

That said, however, the main reason our ancestors developed tools was that they were a bunch of relatively weak hairless monkeys who needed tools in order to survive. If that need doesn't exist -- if our super-people can kill any animal they meet with their bare hands -- would they ever develop technology in the first place?

 

One could imagine a planet of super-powered humanoids would have similarly and propotionately powerful wildlife' date=' it too having had to evolve in the same environment.[/quote']

Sounds like Harry Harrison's Deathworld amped up to superheroic proportions.

[David Johnston]

Re: Superpowered Worlds

 

Are these super-people disease-free' date=' or does their planet have super-germs? How long do they live?[/quote']

 

They are not disease-free and germs require no special powers to infect them. They do have have increased PD to protect themselves from their own strength. They do not have resistant PD, apart from any armour they wear.