Hero System Combat Examples book?

[intp]

Hello,

 

This is my first posting. I have long admired the Hero System, and have

been following the system since the 2nd Edition.

 

One time, I tried, as a simple exercise, to simulate the famous Hulk-Thing fight from Fantastic Four # 25-26 (1964). But I ran into various difficulties. For example, the Hulk grabs the Thing's arm then leaps and hurls him, with a force that even the Thing thinks will kill him. Under 5th Ed. rules (and probably properly so), a throw does no more damage than the thrower's strength regardless of the distance travelled. Also, in the comic example, the Thing grabbed a flagpole on a skyscraper to stop himself. Under current rules, he ordinarily wouldn't be able to do that to avoid the damage from the throw.

 

I know this is a somewhat obtuse example, but it kind of illustrates a general difficulty I've had with the (generally excellent) Hero Games system: the large number of discretionary decisions open to the GM during combat. When is it "fair" to bend the rules for the storyline you want, and when does it become "unfair" to the players because they don't know what to expect?

 

I have bought quite a few Hero Games supplements over the years, some excellent, some less so. But I have often that the single most useful supplement, and one that I would buy immediately, would be a book of sample combat runs, with sidebars on options that the GM might have taken. I bought the Hero Games Combat Handbook, which was definitely helpful, but even that contained few sustained combat examples.

 

Is there any chance of a sample book? it could contain sample runs from different GM's, if that makes it easier; possibly there could be a solicitation for "favorite combat runs" during different campaigns? Anything to get a nice selection of combat examples under various conditions. I would be most grateful if such a book could be produced.

 

Thanks for your time,

Dennis Lee

intp@earthlink.net

[Steve Long]

Re: Hero System Combat Examples book?

 

Since this isn't really a rules question, I've moved it to the Discussion board so anyone who's interested can chime in.

 

We don't have any plans to produce a book like that; I don't think it would sell, and it would be like pulling teeth to write. But I think an "examples of combat" thread where people write up their own little example combats and how they'd handle them would make a fine addition to the board, perhaps even as a sticky. There's some danger of rules misinterpretation or the inclusion of house rules, but I'm sure we can count on other posters to point out anything they think is a problem.

 

Re: the specific examples you describe, I think both can already be done with the system as-is -- you just have to buy them, you don't get them for free. The Hulk's "enhanced throw" is extra STR, Only To Increase Throwing Damage (and perhaps with some other Limitations). The Thing grabbing the flagpole to keep himself from getting hurt is just the special effect of using Breakfall to halve the damage from a Throw. And I'm sure Herodom Assembled can come up with plenty of other nifty ways to simulate this stuff!

[OddHat]

Re: Hero System Combat Examples book?

 

But I ran into various difficulties. For example, the Hulk grabs the Thing's arm then leaps and hurls him, with a force that even the Thing thinks will kill him. Under 5th Ed. rules (and probably properly so), a throw does no more damage than the thrower's strength regardless of the distance travelled.

 

Well, the following seems likely:

1) The Thing could have been wrong. The Player/Writer might know that the throw won't do any more damage than a punch, but that doesn't mean the Character knows that.

2) The Hulk might have a Strength Tricks Martial art, with an Offensive Throw or similar that does extra damage. Alternatively, he might have extra STR, Only for Lift / Throw, which means that his throws would do more damage than his punches.

3) It was color text. You can add it to your games as well.

 

Also, in the comic example, the Thing grabbed a flagpole on a skyscraper to stop himself. Under current rules, he ordinarily wouldn't be able to do that to avoid the damage from the throw.

 

Could be the SFX of the Thing's Breakfall skill, which can reduce the damage from being thrown.

 

Is there any chance of a sample book? it could contain sample runs from different GM's, if that makes it easier; possibly there could be a solicitation for "favorite combat runs" during different campaigns? Anything to get a nice selection of combat examples under various conditions. I would be most grateful if such a book could be produced.

 

Sounds like a good idea.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Hero System Combat Examples book?

 

One time' date=' I tried, as a simple exercise, to simulate the famous Hulk-Thing fight from Fantastic Four # 25-26 (1964). But I ran into various difficulties. For example, the Hulk grabs the Thing's arm then leaps and hurls him, with a force that even the Thing thinks will kill him. Under 5th Ed. rules (and probably properly so), a throw does no more damage than the thrower's strength regardless of the distance travelled. Also, in the comic example, the Thing grabbed a flagpole on a skyscraper to stop himself. Under current rules, he ordinarily wouldn't be able to do that to avoid the damage from the throw.[/quote']

 

The strength trick is something that could be bought if it was going to be used lots or could be an application of the Power skill or might simply be the sfx of a haymaker attack. It would fit well with the game mechanic of the attack taking extra time and the Hulk may have bought extra dice on his haymaker.

 

As for the flagpole, there is the matter of SFX for pluses to Breakfall (if you have a generous GM) or I would allow a character falling to hit an object that would effectively brake them for a limited amount of damage and then take lesser amounts when the character hit the ground - so instead of taking a 20D6 hit the character takes 12D6 and then 8D6 applied seperately against defences.

 

One of the difficulties in Hero is relating the narrative of the fight to the mechanics - there is a lot of potential if you are willing to be creative.

 

 

Doc

[OddHat]

Re: Hero System Combat Examples book?

 

The strength trick is something that could be bought if it was going to be used lots or could be an application of the Power skill or might simply be the sfx of a haymaker attack. It would fit well with the game mechanic of the attack taking extra time and the Hulk may have bought extra dice on his haymaker.

 

As for the flagpole, there is the matter of SFX for pluses to Breakfall (if you have a generous GM) or I would allow a character falling to hit an object that would effectively brake them for a limited amount of damage and then take lesser amounts when the character hit the ground - so instead of taking a 20D6 hit the character takes 12D6 and then 8D6 applied seperately against defences.

 

One of the difficulties in Hero is relating the narrative of the fight to the mechanics - there is a lot of potential if you are willing to be creative.

 

 

Doc

Didn't we have this discussion about flagpoles and breakfall once?

[SirViss]

Re: Hero System Combat Examples book?

 

The writer's of comic books don't have to adhere to rules like playing a game would have to but here are a few ideas about how the Thing could have tried for the flagpole:

• He has "X"d6 luck
  
• He aborted to a defensive action(and had a generous GM)
  

I often think that most (if not all comic characters) have quite a few dice of luck. There is only so many times that a character can be tossed into the stratosphere and come back down unharmed.

As to the "abort to a defensive action", that is something that has to be adjudicated between a GM and a player, and the Thing-Hulk fight was a scene in a game, I could see a GM allowing a PC to lose his next action so that he could catch a flagpole and save himself some damage. The GM would of course interpret how this would affect the amout of pain the character would wind-up in, but it is dramatically appropriate. And that was the intention of the comic book, right?

[OddHat]

Re: Hero System Combat Examples book?

 

The writer's of comic books don't have to adhere to rules like playing a game would have to but here are a few ideas about how the Thing could have tried for the flagpole:

• He has "X"d6 luck
  
• He aborted to a defensive action(and had a generous GM)
  

I often think that most (if not all comic characters) have quite a few dice of luck. There is only so many times that a character can be tossed into the stratosphere and come back down unharmed.

As to the "abort to a defensive action", that is something that has to be adjudicated between a GM and a player, and the Thing-Hulk fight was a scene in a game, I could see a GM allowing a PC to lose his next action so that he could catch a flagpole and save himself some damage. The GM would of course interpret how this would affect the amout of pain the character would wind-up in, but it is dramatically appropriate. And that was the intention of the comic book, right?

 

 

Works fine as the SFX for Roll with the Punch, but fits exactly into the SFX of Breakfall.

[pinecone]

Re: Hero System Combat Examples book?

 

I'm only agree'in...That big ol' throw could easily been a Pres attack and a haymaker (the pres attack if big enough, would keep Ben from taking action to prevent the haymaker from landing...like say Blocking.....) Ben though he was gona die because that was the "message" of the Pres attack "this will kill you for sure!" (non verbal perhaps, but thats the message)

 

"thats breakfall" was what went through my mind as well with the flag pole.

 

Cool and cinematic combat desciptions are hard to come by in Hero combat, but thats because it's hard to come by in general.

 

Practice and thought by the GM is the fix. I don't see a way to put that into the rules. D20 is the same it's anything from "cool and exiting" to "you hit, he swings, its a hit" in a monotone voice...

[gojira]

Re: Hero System Combat Examples book?

 

Welcome Valkyrie...er, intp!

 

...The Thing grabbing the flagpole to keep himself from getting hurt is just the special effect of using Breakfall to halve the damage from a Throw. ...

 

Pretty much my exact thought when I read intp's example.

 

The strength trick is something that could be bought if it was going to be used lots or could be an application of the Power skill or might simply be the sfx of a haymaker attack.

 

I like this. It could also be a Grab, then a Throw.

 

The leap and throw bit could be just Pushing your throw ("I'm gonna leap to gain extra velocity, then throw him!").

 

It could also be a special maneuver on the throw, where the leap move-through damage is added to the throw. (I'd cost this out as +STR, only for throwing, like Steve suggests, but I'd add the lim where the actual added damage can't exceed the move-through damage on a leap the Hulk can actually make.)

 

 

Didn't we have this discussion about flagpoles and breakfall once?

 

“I know! I'll bounce off that flag pole and flip to safety!”

 

[*]He has "X"d6 luck

 

I often think that most (if not all comic characters) have quite a few dice of luck. There is only so many times that a character can be tossed into the stratosphere and come back down unharmed.

 

I like this also. Luck like this would also work well with an expanded luck system, like RDU Neil’s luck chits.

 

 

In addition, as other have suggested, hyperbole and imagination by the GM and players during the fight can go a long way to make your super fights more exciting.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hero System Combat Examples book?

 

1 trying to copy comic book scenarios in a game, no matter how good the game, is a path to madness.

 

2 The Hulk grabs The Thing and leaps and hurls him into the ground for extra damage? Sounds like a power trick version of a move through. Even if it isn't, a martial throw uses the velocity of the victim - if the Hulk has imparted that velocity then so be it, but the amage is still greater than normal STR damage. So, that must mean that the Hulk does have matrial arts, if you reason from effect.

 

3 a flagpole is never realistically going to slow The Thing enough to make a difference in anything approaching 'reality' but in comics the writer's shaky grasp of physics is all that matters. As it happens in Hero a flagpole can make as much as 6 points of BODY difference (with a following wind and a generous GM, or 2 with a more realistic one), so I suppose it could keep someone one the cusp alive. See 1 above.

[HeroGM]

Re: Hero System Combat Examples book?

 

A character can and will do whatever the writer wants him/her to do.