History Channel: Comic Book Superheroes Unmasked

[Starlord]

For those who missed it, or just want to see it again

 

*All times Eastern on the History Channell

 

Saturday, 28th 10:00 PM

Sunday, 29th 2:00 AM

Sunday, 29th 6:00 PM

Monday, 7th July 10:00 PM

Tuesday, 8th July 2:00 AM

 

From Starlord, your Friendly Neighborhood TV Guide.

[Mentor]

Originally posted by McCoy

Was a pretty good historical overview of the genre.

 

Am somewhat suprised they went into such detail about the death of Electra and didn't even mention Phoenix. May have been a result of which creators they could interview. (Didn't see Clairmont, Byrne, or Shooter.)

I agree. Those were some really off the wall omissions of both heroes and Artists/writers. No Phoenix or Byrne seems incredible.

[dei1c3]

I enjoyed the show...right up to the end when they talked about what happened in the late 90's (i.e. greedy speculators ruining the market) and the current state (i.e. the end may be near)...because I just started reading comics again after a 10+ year layoff and I'll be pissed if they just go away. Grr.

 

Heh.

 

Chris

[James Gillen]

Originally posted by Jhamin

Ok the golden age wonder woman had the lasso that makes men tell the truth just like the modern version. Apparently she also had this deal where if you could chain her magical braclets together and then tie her down she would lose her mighty will and become docile and submissive. This then left her vulnerable to spankings.

Almost every issue Wonder Woman was apparently bound and often gagged by her rouges gallery. One of the comics they showed on the program had her bound and thrown over the lap of a little midget guy spanking her with a brush. Wonder Woman is looking toward the viewer and winking in her best Petty Page impression.

 

One of their comic book guru guys said that as far as he could tell nobody in the general public of the 30s "got it" and they were able to go on like this for years.

 

It gets better.

 

According to the history channel special she was created by the psychologist who invented the lie detector. In his private life he apparently lived happily in a big house with this wife and two kids, and another woman (a former student) and their two kids. Apparently this second woman was never seen without a pair of metal braclets on each wrist.....

 

It explains much.

 

What do people think about the general thesis at the end- that the comic book industry is dying (due to overspecialization and lack of young audience) and the medium may survive by moving to the Internet?

 

JG

[Hermit]

I remember the Shooter years. While I didn't like every descion made, I always thought he got the shaft and blame for a lot of things that 'weren't' his fault. Others would know better than I though.

 

As for events they missed: Yeah, hard to believe Gwen Stacy and Phoenix's death got breezed over like that. Come to think of it, I may have missed it, but I don't recall a mention of the "Death of Superman" either.

 

The other thing that amused me was the total glossing over another farce that is universially considered a bad move by Marvel-The Clone Saga.

 

It seems the History channel was trying to spare the industry and omitted some of these 'moments of shame'.

 

Or maybe I'm just still bitter about that.

[Killer Shrike]

A picture of Supes and that idiotic thing that "killed" him was shown during the segment on overspeculation, so it was in there even though it wasnt mentioned directly.

[Haerandir]

Originally posted by James Gillen

It explains much.

 

What do people think about the general thesis at the end- that the comic book industry is dying (due to overspecialization and lack of young audience) and the medium may survive by moving to the Internet?

 

JG

 

Well, people have been predicting the death of the comics industry since, um, forever as near as I can tell. Certainly there was a great deal of concern about it in the '80's and '90's. And, of course, there were the '50's and '60's. As near as I can tell, the only extended time periods where comic book industry wasn't considered in imminent danger of collapse were the '30's and the '70's.

 

And yet, they're still kicking around. I shouldn't worry too much. You may have to wait out another 'doldrums' period, but I strongly suspect the rumors of comics' death are, as ever, greatly exaggerated.

 

Oh, and Hermit, the only mention I saw of the Death of Superman were a few shots of the funeral issue that were shown during the bit about special issues, alternate covers and the speculators' market. And, as Killer Shrike says, Doomsday may have appeared.

[allen]

Originally posted by James Gillen

It explains much.

 

What do people think about the general thesis at the end- that the comic book industry is dying (due to overspecialization and lack of young audience) and the medium may survive by moving to the Internet?

 

i think comics will survive (heck, if they still print gaming books on paper, comics have a long way to fall in readership, before they are forced to go the internet).

 

i do, however, think the recent success of movies based on Marvel comic book characters is the beginning of the end for Marvel comics. movies make more money. Marvel will shift its focus to cash in, and comics will definitely play second fiddle (third fiddle after merchandise and all that). anyway the intellectual property will become multimedia with film as the emphasis; one comic title per IP will exist to occupy that particular facet of multimedia (maybe) and it's point will be to push the IP, not to be a 'cool comic book.'

 

i expect DC to follow soon thereafter.

 

of course, the whole movie thing could be a fad i suppose. (i don't think so though. personal opinion time, but i think the success of the movies is predicated on advancements in SFX; not that the movie-going population is suddenly keen on comics.)

 

anyway, as Marvel and DC exit the comic book industry, third party publishers will fill the gap to a certain extent, so fans of the medium still have comics to read; just that those fans more concerned with continuity and following the adventures of [their favorite character here] will be alienated and leave the market (those still left after the mid-nineties that is).

 

basically to fill in RL examples... CrossGen would still be around, so those who like comic stories about superheroes have something to read. Those who have been reading Fantastic Four or Superman or whatever since the beginning of time will leave the market, as the characters change to resemble the movie versions of these characters and become farther and farther removed from what they originally read.

 

anyway, enough rambling... hopefully something made sense in there somewhere...

[Killer Shrike]

I liked the show in general, but thought it gave too much coverage to the Golden Age (the History Channel's endless obsession with WW2 rearing its head again?) and didnt give ANY real coverage to the Independents. Image was briefly mentioned, Valiant wasnt mentioned at all, Dark Horse wasnt directly mentioned (though one of the 'experts' was a Dark Horse exec), and thats just in the last decade. They also totally glossed over EC, barely mentioned Fawcett (in conjunction with Shazam), didnt mention Dell, Goldkey, Whittman, or any of the other old-school failed comic lines.

 

But, youve got to cut them some slack. That many years of comic history could fill a week of 2 hour spots, easily.

 

Also, by the by, John Byrne was mentioned -- in conjunction with the Giant-sized X-Men #1 spot, along with IIRC Romita Jr and Claremont.

 

And speaking of the X-Men, I thought it was interesting how they chose to focus on the "outsider" angle of the X-Men as thier big appeal, and didnt mention the teams ethnic diversity at all. They went on and on about the Green Arrow/Lantern 'relevance' to the racial situation of the day, but I didnt catch a mention of the X-Men's diversity being an interest point.

 

Also, there was a segment on Comics Helping Children in 3rd World Countries, ie the Landmine bit. One thing I was slightly suprised about is they didnt spend anytime at all on the positive aspects of comics on children in America.

 

I dont know about any of the rest of you, but I learned patriotism to the nation leavened by a watchful eye upon the government from Captain America, sacrifice from Thunderbird (I), stoicism from the Thing, the dangers of anger from the Hulk, the unfairness & illogic of bigotry from the X-Men, what it means to stand up for whats right from heroes in general, the importance of dialogue by the way different characters spoke to one another, etc etc etc. As a side note, comics paved the way for me to start roleplaying as well, but I imagine that to be an isolated case, and certainly not something most people would see as "positive"

 

 

Not only that, but when I went into a comic store and hung out, there were other young boys "of color" who also enjoyed the same comics as I. When I was 10, living in a predominantly white upperclass suburb and going to a middle school composed of pretty much just caucasians and jews, and the occasional japanese it was a major bridge to meeting and making friends in a broader ethnic pool. Comics were a common denominator that we could all relate to. Im not sure if that was an isolated case; I imagine as comic book stores became more common, the proliferation of them resulted in neighborhood stores rather than everyone going to the one or two in the city. Still, its one of the things I most remember from when I started collecting comics as a kid.

 

Any thoughts?

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Scott Destroyer

Hello,

 

Just caught the show earlier tonight.

 

My overall impression: adequately done. Skewed a bit towards DC and its icons, though not unjustifiably so given their wide recognition among even non-fans. Some of the analysis seemed on the weak side.

 

My gut reaction: Denny O'Neil lives, breathes, and gives interviews while Mark Gruenwald lies cold in his grave. There is truly no justice in the world.

 

 

 

Hmm, the Champions genre book regards her death as the end of the Silver Age and the beginning of the Bronze, but does point out that there's plenty of room for different interpretations of the comic "ages". In any case, it's clearly an important event.

 

 

 

What about him? I always did get kind of a kick out of stories of psycho fans coming up to him at conventions and going off. "You killed Phoenix! Murderer!" The X-titles were at their peak when he was at the helm, and he deserves a lot of credit for that alone. From the heavier stuff like the Phoenix Saga and Days of Future Past, to lighter fare like Kitty's Fairy Tale, the quality was generally amazing. It didn't really start to slip until about the time the Marauders showed up, and some titles, like Excalibur, stayed excellent long after even that.

 

I remember seeing a rumor to the effect that many of the character changes that went on at Marvel later in Shooter's tenure (Spidey's black costume, Rhodey instead of Stark as Iron Man, USAgent takes over for Captain America, etc.) were the result of a threatened lawsuit by one of Stan Lee's early partners (I think it was Kirby), for royalties on characters he co-created. Some of these changes were handled well, others less so, and Shooter seems to have done about as well as could be expected in overseeing the Marvel lineup during his tenure. In any case, most of the characters went more or less "back to normal" once the threat of the lawsuit evaporated.

 

The worst thing to happen during Shooter's reign was probably the Secret Wars. It was rushed out with ridiculous haste to beat Crisis on Infinite Earths to the shelves, plotting used a blatant all-powerful deus ex machina (the Beyonder) who would have seemed trite even in the Silver Age, and it started the trend of yearly universe-wide crossover stories that required you to pick up issues of titles you didn't collect if you wanted to get the complete picture of what was going on. Not to say the series didn't have its moments, but overall, it was just weak.

 

One policy I thoroughly hate I first saw in action during his tenure, though I doubt it either originated or ended with him. It is the policy of taking a writer who has brought a title to new heights of brilliance, assigning him to a weak-selling title in hopes of boosting its sales, handing his previous excellent title off to talentless hacks while hoping its sales will stay high on sheer reputation, and letting said hacks utterly ruin the title. Post-Byrne Alpha Flight and post-Simonson Thor are the books that most stick in my craw here, though the post-Claremont X-titles have had their nadirs as well.

Secret Wars was bad. What they were doing with writers was not good either but I could almost swear that wasn't a new practice by that time. It's interesting that some of their worst business decisions in the long-term are the ones that seem more nakedly motivated by simple economic concerns. I think Marvel and DC are at their best when they just try to write good stories. Selling comes easy when you do that.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

I liked the show in general, but thought it gave too much coverage to the Golden Age (the History Channel's endless obsession with WW2 rearing its head again?) and didnt give ANY real coverage to the Independents. Image was briefly mentioned, Valiant wasnt mentioned at all, Dark Horse wasnt directly mentioned (though one of the 'experts' was a Dark Horse exec), and thats just in the last decade. They also totally glossed over EC, barely mentioned Fawcett (in conjunction with Shazam), didnt mention Dell, Goldkey, Whittman, or any of the other old-school failed comic lines.

 

But, youve got to cut them some slack. That many years of comic history could fill a week of 2 hour spots, easily.

 

Also, by the by, John Byrne was mentioned -- in conjunction with the Giant-sized X-Men #1 spot, along with IIRC Romita Jr and Claremont.

 

And speaking of the X-Men, I thought it was interesting how they chose to focus on the "outsider" angle of the X-Men as thier big appeal, and didnt mention the teams ethnic diversity at all. They went on and on about the Green Arrow/Lantern 'relevance' to the racial situation of the day, but I didnt catch a mention of the X-Men's diversity being an interest point.

 

Also, there was a segment on Comics Helping Children in 3rd World Countries, ie the Landmine bit. One thing I was slightly suprised about is they didnt spend anytime at all on the positive aspects of comics on children in America.

 

I dont know about any of the rest of you, but I learned patriotism to the nation leavened by a watchful eye upon the government from Captain America, sacrifice from Thunderbird (I), stoicism from the Thing, the dangers of anger from the Hulk, the unfairness & illogic of bigotry from the X-Men, what it means to stand up for whats right from heroes in general, the importance of dialogue by the way different characters spoke to one another, etc etc etc. As a side note, comics paved the way for me to start roleplaying as well, but I imagine that to be an isolated case, and certainly not something most people would see as "positive"

 

 

Not only that, but when I went into a comic store and hung out, there were other young boys "of color" who also enjoyed the same comics as I. When I was 10, living in a predominantly white upperclass suburb and going to a middle school composed of pretty much just caucasians and jews, and the occasional japanese it was a major bridge to meeting and making friends in a broader ethnic pool. Comics were a common denominator that we could all relate to. Im not sure if that was an isolated case; I imagine as comic book stores became more common, the proliferation of them resulted in neighborhood stores rather than everyone going to the one or two in the city. Still, its one of the things I most remember from when I started collecting comics as a kid.

 

Any thoughts?

DC also put out anti-drug comic books. Green Lantern/Green Arrow was a big deal because of its timing. The title also trumpeted what they were doing. The Uncanny X-Men never made a fuss about the diversity so it slipped under the radar.

[dbcowboy]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

I dont know about any of the rest of you, but I learned patriotism to the nation leavened by a watchful eye upon the government from Captain America, sacrifice from Thunderbird (I), stoicism from the Thing, the dangers of anger from the Hulk, the unfairness & illogic of bigotry from the X-Men, what it means to stand up for whats right from heroes in general, the importance of dialogue by the way different characters spoke to one another, etc etc etc. As a side note, comics paved the way for me to start roleplaying as well, but I imagine that to be an isolated case, and certainly not something most people would see as "positive"

 

Amen. They weren't Shakespear and I won't equate them to Plato but there were some very good, very powerful, very positive stories told in the pages of comic books.

 

When I was in high school, my grandfather would find me reading a comic occasionally and always say, "You're in high school, why are you reading one of them funny-books." I'd generally say something like, "Because the story isn't very funny." Being a teenager I had that whole teen-angst thing going so I probably got mad a lot of the time.

 

A good friend of mine wrote his masters thesis on Batman as a mythic figure for America. He compared the character to older myths such as Beowulf and others and identified the societal morals the character represented (justification through violence was one, I don't remember the rest). Perhaps what once were told around camp-fires, which became dime novels sold weekly in the General Store, that turned into four colored magazines sold across the land will next simply become moving pictures on the large screen. Maybe that's just the continued evolution. If so, it will only be because the people of the society support it and desire it to be so.

[SuperBlue]

Originally posted by dbcowboy

A good friend of mine wrote his masters thesis on Batman as a mythic figure for America. He compared the character to older myths such as Beowulf and others and identified the societal morals the character represented (justification through violence was one, I don't remember the rest). Perhaps what once were told around camp-fires, which became dime novels sold weekly in the General Store, that turned into four colored magazines sold across the land will next simply become moving pictures on the large screen. Maybe that's just the continued evolution. If so, it will only be because the people of the society support it and desire it to be so.

 

 

Okay... did anyone else think of Samual L Jackson's character from Unbreakable when they read this? I do agree though that comic books and block-buster action movies play the same role as mythological stories told in Greek/Roman/Norse periods.

[dbcowboy]

Hmmmm, did the Unbreakable writer attend Southwest Texas State University in 1992? Maybe he read my buddies thesis. (doubt it but anything's possible).

 

This got me to thinking about that thesis, thought you might be interested in the myths my friend identified with Batman.

- Myth of the Hero Quest

- Myth of the Vigilante

- Myth of Regeneration Through Violence (thought it was justification through violence, my mistake)

He specifically focused on the Dark Knight Returns storyline for examples to support these ideas. Man, how many people can say that they made it through grad school by reading comics.

[McCoy]

Originally posted by Agent X

Let's talk Jim Shooter! The guy was in command of Marvel when all the pieces fell into place for the big comics boom. You gotta remember, Phoenix died because he demanded it. He strong-armed dozens of creators at Marvel during what many consider an excellent period for the company. He was the focus (of hatred) of a lot of the fanboy demand for writers and especially artists to get more creative control. I know he's not popular with quite a few people in the industry but I know there was a stamp of quality on most things (not Dazzler) that he touched that isn't matched very often.

 

Team America

 

US 1

 

The entire New Universe, but especally Starbrand

 

While some things he did with Ghost Rider and Hulk were good, Shooter's best days were with the LSH. (I believe he was the first Ghost Rider writer who actually knew anything about motorcycles.)

 

Shooter gets a lot of the blame for changes that were probably inevitable. Before Shooter ther was the Marvel Bullpen, several artist and writers at their own drawing boards and desks in one big room, with a creative give and take. After Shooter was the era of the freelancer, talent working in their own offices or studios more or less in isolation, communicating by mail and phone (and later FAX).

 

Shooter deserves credit for making the brains run on time, for making the industry more businesslike and imposing the discipline of deadlines and all but eliminating those annoying unscheduled reprints that use to crop up somewhere almost every month (about half the time in Englehart's titles if memory serves).

 

But there are those among the talent who felt that as it became more of a business it also became less of an art.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by McCoy

Team America

 

US 1

 

The entire New Universe, but especally Starbrand

 

While some things he did with Ghost Rider and Hulk were good, Shooter's best days were with the LSH. (I believe he was the first Ghost Rider writer who actually knew anything about motorcycles.)

 

Shooter gets a lot of the blame for changes that were probably inevitable. Before Shooter ther was the Marvel Bullpen, several artist and writers at their own drawing boards and desks in one big room, with a creative give and take. After Shooter was the era of the freelancer, talent working in their own offices or studios more or less in isolation, communicating by mail and phone (and later FAX).

 

Shooter deserves credit for making the brains run on time, for making the industry more businesslike and imposing the discipline of deadlines and all but eliminating those annoying unscheduled reprints that use to crop up somewhere almost every month (about half the time in Englehart's titles if memory serves).

 

But there are those among the talent who felt that as it became more of a business it also became less of an art.

I can see their perspective. All I know is that their art seemed more coherent and entertaining while Shooter was there.