Firewing vs. Gravitar?

[Omegaplex]

I had posted this on the Hero board; it was suggested I try here

 

I've been having an internal debate here. Was hoping some players would offer their thoughts on this match-up. I'm trying to pit these two 'theme' villains against one another in a campaign, and when they inevitably confront each other, which has more power? How would this play out given all things being equal?

[Bloodstone]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Link

 

My opinon remains much the same

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Ditto.

[Weldun]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Gravitar wins handily if she's not surprised. Even if she is, she's in with a better than even chance.

 

Segment 12- Grab Firewing with STR 60 TK.

Segment 2- Slap selective gravity alteration on Firewing.

Remaining Segements- Fly out to 450" and wait for Firewing to die.

 

Ah, hell, she IS overconfident.

 

Remaining Segements- Fly up to Firewing and bitch-slap him until he's unconscious.

 

We need to remember that this is the woman who single-handedly handed Eurostar their collective @$$.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Gravitar has to win or it has to be "inconclusive," the same as with her fights with Eurostar. Why? Because if Gravitar lost, she'd be dead and then HERO would be without its lamest master villain.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Nah, Firewing isn't likely to try and finish off a disabled opponent. So, unless you've got Eurostar watching from the sidelines. . .

[name_tamer]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Gravitar has to win or it has to be "inconclusive' date='" the same as with her fights with Eurostar. Why? Because if Gravitar lost, she'd be [u']dead[/u] and then HERO would be without its lamest master villain.

 

I don't see why he'd kill her. Although Firewing certainly has no CvK, he does have a Code of Honor that supposedly prevents him from fighting unfairly; I would think that would include killing a downed opponent (unless the Phazor ordered it in the arena). The flavor text indicates that his code of honor wars with his Psych Lim: Determined to Win, but if Gravitar is down, he will have won, so no problem, right?

 

OTOH, if his Enraged gets triggered, I guess he might try to do BODY to a downed foe.

 

Eurostar, though, you're right, would definitely kill her if they could.

 

Edit: Metaphysician beat me to it.

[Twilight]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Eurostar would do worse then kill her if they got the chance. I mean she humiliated them once, Fiacho and company seem like the types who'd want to return the favour.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Nah' date=' Firewing isn't likely to try and finish off a disabled opponent.[/quote']Why is that? He's not a hero; he's a gladiator looking for a serious challenge. It's implied he's been a part of killings: "Gradually, the games became bloodier and bloodier..." and while he may not have cared for it then, he apparently participated.

I don't see why he'd kill her. Although Firewing certainly has no CvK' date=' he does have a Code of Honor that supposedly prevents him from fighting unfairly; I would think that would include killing a downed opponent (unless the Phazor ordered it in the arena).[/quote']

Don't mistake a code of honor with a code vs killing. Samurai had a code of honor, thugees had their own sort of code of honor, but both groups were efficient at killing.

 

<<And what of it?>> Thone [Firewing] said hotly. <<Without victory, honor is a meaningless sop. I fight to win!>>

 

"But on the other hand, Firewing's desire for victory...wars with this honor to which he sicerely aspires. Whenever Firewing is confronted with the possibility of losing a fight, make EGO Rolls for both Psychological Limitations.... If his Determined to Win has the best roll, he'll cheat to win if he has to."

 

This is his code of honor:

• Never attacking from surprise or behind
  
• Never refusing a challenge
  
• Never using powers beyond his own that his opponent lacks
  

 

The flavor text indicates that his code of honor wars with his Psych Lim: Determined to Win, but if Gravitar is down, he will have won, so no problem, right?

 

OTOH, if his Enraged gets triggered, I guess he might try to do BODY to a downed foe.

Possibly. If Gravitar fights fairly (according to Firewing), then true, but if treachery, betrayal, or unfair combat tactics (his Enraged triggers) are used, he may feel the need to respond with his wrath. With his reputation of "supervillain of world-threatening power," there has to be a reason behind it. I think the last sentence in "Campaign Use" says it nicely: "He cares little how much destruction and death he causes, provided he gets a good fight."

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Yes, the Malvan arena was bloody, but a major part of his backstory is that he grew disgusted with the arena.

 

Given the description of the character in various places, it is also pretty clear that he hasn't left a pile of bodies behind him in the course of his career on Earth. At least, not intentionally ( its up for debate whether he has collateral damage kills, mainly a matter for your preferred "age" ).

 

As for the matter of honorable vs dishonorable opponents, I can see that. I just don't see anything on Gravitar's sheet that would automatically put her in the latter category. Barring Gravitar backshotting Firewing under false pretenses ( which isn't very in character for Gravitar, either ), I don't see him finding much offense from her. If anything, he'd enjoy taking on an opponent who pushes him to his limits.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Yes' date=' the Malvan arena was bloody, but a major part of his backstory is that he grew disgusted with the arena.[/quote']Actually, Drogan Lar (Ironclad) is the one that became disgusted. Firewing became dismayed due to lack of competition after Ironclad and Dazeur (Herculan) left. Firewing only became disgusted after all the gladiators started using the drugs he had used. Only when he stopped taking them and became one of the weakest, that is when he went to the Wisdom Stones.

 

Given the description of the character in various places' date=' it is also pretty clear that he hasn't left a pile of bodies behind him in the course of his career on Earth. At least, not intentionally ( its up for debate whether he has collateral damage kills, mainly a matter for your preferred "age" ).[/quote']True, but specified deaths are generally for those villains who are supposed to be "super evil" or "murderous" to make the NPC have more clout. (Even then, supers killed are nameless more often than not.) Otherwise, background deaths are rarely mentioned. The part where "he cares little how much death and destruction and death he causes" implies he's done it before.

 

As for the matter of honorable vs dishonorable opponents, I can see that. I just don't see anything on Gravitar's sheet that would automatically put her in the latter category.

OK, I can see that, but it does depend on Firewing's interpretation of honorable/dishonorable. Her AoE TK and indirect EBs (the latter more than the former) could be seen as dishonorable to him.

[Vorsch]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Gotta love a rewrite of the a no 1 bad ass energy projector ( appologies to the DR D, but they ruined you ).

 

Firewing is the No1 ranged combatent on earth.

 

final

 

side note can gravitar breathe vaccuum

 

have firewing pick her up, skys the limit, not.

[AlHazred]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Who wins depends on the need of the story...

 

(What? Someone was going to say it!)

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Gotta love a rewrite of the a no 1 bad ass energy projector ( appologies to the DR D, but they ruined you ).

 

Firewing is the No1 ranged combatent on earth.

 

final

 

side note can gravitar breathe vaccuum

 

have firewing pick her up, skys the limit, not.

 

Wouldn't work. Gravitar has faster flight than Firewing, and is just as strong even without TK.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Wouldn't work. Gravitar has faster flight than Firewing' date=' and is just as strong even without TK.[/quote']

 

They do have equal STR, but they have the same inches of combat flight and Firewing has the higher SPD, so in a sense he is the "faster" of the two in a running battle.

 

Gravitars does have a higher NCM though, so if she's willing to take the risks or has an opening she can cover some ground very quickly.

 

On the other hand, Firewing does have FTL flight...

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Point being, there's no way Firewing is dragging her into orbit.

 

And given how many of Gravitar's abilities are area effect, she can afford to eat the OCV penalty for NCM movement.

[TheTemplar]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Yeah, mad love to Firewing and all, but when push comes to shove, advantage: Gravitar. It'd be a heckuva slobberknocker though. Might be a fun one for The Defenders to try to break up....

 

 

...hmmmm....

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

And given how many of Gravitar's abilities are area effect...

Two.

...she can afford to eat the OCV penalty for NCM movement.

Sadly, this is true.

 

Quite frankly, Gravitar is a munchkin build with a lame write-up. Her "normal" defenses are 24 PD/ 24 ED and with a 0 END Force Field she'll always be at 54/30 ®. No one else in CKC has a 54 Defense! Dr. D. has 40/40 (though 50%DR). If she uses her force wall, she's then 64/40 (D/r). Talk about cheesey! Her next two munchkin powers (which I seriously doubt any GM would allow a player to have) are the Flight UAA (AoE 7" radius!) and the 50 STR TK (AoE 11" radius!). Follow this up with a 60 STR TK +40 STR TK (for 100 STR TK) that she can use as a multiple power attack and very few could NPCs or PCs could survive this. Should someone start to hurt her, she has her 120" flee.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

She's *supposed* to be the Magneto-type energy controller, the one type who can take on whole teams, or whole armies. And as far as counterbalancing weaknesses?

 

-*No* mental defense

 

-*No* power defense

 

-*No* flash defense

 

-*No* alternate sense modes

 

-*No* lack of weaknesses

 

-*No* hardened PD/ED

 

Thats an aweful lot of defenses she doesn't have.

[TheTemplar]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Yeah, when I rolled her out against The Defenders, the lack of Flash Defense and Mental Defense stuck out like a sore thumb, and the heroes really capitalized on these weaknesses. She was forced to spend several phases while flashed and unable to see her opponents just cocooned up inside her Force Wall taking recoveries to get back the STUN she was losing to mental attacks.

 

Unfortunately, Ariax Thone as written possesses no abilities to exploit either of these weaknesses. Even though most of his abilities are Vs. ED and Gravitar is muc much weaker vs. Energy attacks than Physical ones, I think Gravitar still wins head to head.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Yeah, when I rolled her out against The Defenders, the lack of Flash Defense and Mental Defense stuck out like a sore thumb, and the heroes really capitalized on these weaknesses. She was forced to spend several phases while flashed and unable to see her opponents just cocooned up inside her Force Wall taking recoveries to get back the STUN she was losing to mental attacks.

 

Unfortunately, Ariax Thone as written possesses no abilities to exploit either of these weaknesses. Even though most of his abilities are Vs. ED and Gravitar is muc much weaker vs. Energy attacks than Physical ones, I think Gravitar still wins head to head.

 

Oh, yeah, definitely. Firewing's only hope is to hit with the NND before Gravitar puts him in an inescapable TK hold.

 

Its just, claiming Gravitar is some ultimate munchkin is ludicrous. Menton is alot worse: he's got most of the exotics I mentioned, and while his defense is lower, he's got far more actions per turn, including the ultranasty BOECV Entangle.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

She's *supposed* to be the Magneto-type energy controller' date=' the one type who can take on whole teams, or whole armies. And as far as counterbalancing weaknesses?[/quote']All "master villains" should be able to take on whole teams; that's their point as "master." While her powers may be a cheap Magneto rip-off/homage/parody, her write up is still lame.

 

-*No* mental defense

She has an 8 ECV and a 25 EGO, so mind affecting mental powers aren't going to be that effective. For Ego blasts, she has a 30 Con and 60 Stun. You'll need a 9d6 Ego attack (Menton's is 8d6) to be able to Con Stun her on average.

 

-*No* power defense

 

-*No* flash defense

 

-*No* alternate sense modes

See below.*

 

-*No* lack of weaknesses

 

-*No* hardened PD/ED

With 54 PD/ED defenses (30r) before a force wall, she doesn't really need it, does she? You'd need a 3d6 Armor Piercing Killing attack (or 1 successful FW) just to hope to wound her. And with her powers and flight, her opponent(s) probably won't be using many 1/2 phases trying to find that weak spot.

 

Thats an aweful lot of defenses she doesn't have.

*Because that's an awful lot she doesn't need. This reinforces the part that she's a munchkin. If she's a full non-combat move away, she needs just a 12- to hit the hex her opponent is in. And if she misses by one or two hexes? No big deal, is it? She'd have to miss by 12 hexes before her AoE 50 STR TK would actually miss.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Yeah' date=' when I rolled her out against The Defenders, the lack of Flash Defense and Mental Defense stuck out like a sore thumb, and the heroes really capitalized on these weaknesses. She was forced to spend several phases while flashed and unable to see her opponents just cocooned up inside her Force Wall taking recoveries to get back the STUN she was losing to mental attacks.[/quote']Quite frankly, if she just stood still behind her Force Wall while this happened, that's piss poor playing. That's the kind of a response a newbie would do. (I know this as I did it quite often when I was first new to the game, and I've witnessed other newbies do it as well.) She should have had at least one of two responses: Fly away 120" or use that 50 STR TK to either hold people aloft in the air or pin them to the ground. Then she could recover or deal with the few that could break that 50 STR hold.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Its just' date=' claiming Gravitar is some ultimate munchkin is ludicrous. Menton is alot worse: he's got most of the exotics I mentioned, and while his defense is lower, he's got far more actions per turn, including the ultranasty BOECV Entangle.[/quote']Don't confuse "munchkin" with "powerful." That would be ludicrous: causing laughter with the absurd. Menton is powerful, Gravitar is both. As I stated before, Gravitar has a lame write-up; Menton most definitely does not. Gravitar can do three attacks per phase if she desires, Menton can do two.

 

Actually, I'm surprised at how well-designed Menton is since they watered down a few of his abilities in 5th Ed. His Ego attack has gone from 10d6 to 8d6, his 5d6 RKA has gone from AP to Penetrating, and his mental entangle has dropped from 8d6 to 6d6. His other powers are roughly the same. While he's gained 2 points of Speed overall, he's lost 2 on the physical side.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

And as far as counterbalancing weaknesses?

 

-*No* mental defense

 

-*No* power defense

 

-*No* flash defense

 

-*No* alternate sense modes

 

-*No* lack of weaknesses

 

-*No* hardened PD/ED

 

Thats an aweful lot of defenses she doesn't have.

Eurostar:

Fiacho: RKA 1d6 AP Autofire, 3d6 DEX Drain, Darkness to Sight Group 3"

 

Durak: 70 STR

 

Feuermacher: N/A

 

Mentalla: 7d6 Ego Attack, 14d6 Mental Illusions, 14d6 Mind Control, 3d6 Ego Drain

 

Scorpia: 4d6 RKA NND Does BODY, 1 1/2d6 HKA (w/Str) AP + 5d6 Stun Drain

 

Ultrasonique: 9d6 Energy Blast AP, 15d6 Hearing Flash

 

Gravitar won in essentially ONE PHASE against them. She doesn't need much to her defenses when she can do what, Dr. Destroyer, Menton, and probably Takofanes can't do: Defeat Eurostar in one attack. Yes, she's a munchkin build. If she had those additional defenses, she'd be the "ultimate munchkin" you implied I stated.