Dead - or just an NPC??

[Ndreare]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

Hero System 6 th page 289 last paragraph states.

 

A Summoned being no longer counts against

 

the total number of Summoned beings a character

 

can have in existence at once when it dies or the

 

character loses control of it (or initially fails to

 

establish control). As long as the character can

 

control the being (e.g., it still owes him tasks after

 

losing an EGO Roll Versus EGO Roll Contest),

 

or has some chance to re-assert control (e.g., the

 

being’s been Mind Controlled, but could break

 

free), it counts against his total.

 

To me this would imply that a simple summon, with the limitation Obvious Accessible, Expendable Focus – Infected Body or Corse, delayed effect (after death of host), linked to Infection RKA.

 

The killing attack itself would be created as a Ranged Killing Attack, triggered by any body fluid exposure, with no normal defense life support, uncontrolled, 0-end, does body.

 

These two combined make for perfect zombie making. The original summoner may have multiple zombies representing his control limits, but they would still be inflecting all the people they attack, that he would not be able to control, heck they may even attack him.

 

If it is a regular zombie apocalypse then no control at all is needed as every zombie is its very own killing machine without concern for some necromancers will.

[psyber624]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

I think part of the confusion is that there are two different zombie making powers being talked about, which work totally different.

 

The necromancer walks into a graveyard, cuts off a chickens head, draws some not so pretty pictures, mumbles some inarticulate words, and causes the dead to rise from the grave. Thats power number 1. Based upon comments here (which have given me a better understanding of how summons work) I feel this is almost certainly a summon. The necromancer has a limit to how many beings he can CONTROL at one time, but taking a line straight from 6e1 289

If he has all 16 Lions, he cannot summon anymore until some of the leave or die.

I think that pretty clearly states that our single necromancer could summon up basically as many zombies as he wishes as long as he doesn't try to control them and just lets them wander off. (Yes, as a GM if a PC pulled a stunt like that we would have to step in, but the rules do allow it.)

 

Then we have power number 2. The Romero Zombie Bite Infection. This is clearly a Transform, and it is perfectly legal under the rules, because it is turning a living person into an "unliving" zombie. If a zombie munches on a corpse we get digested corpse meat, no zombie. The zombies are really never shown to have the power to turn the already dead into zombies by grabbing a quick bite, its only the living, breathing, screaming ones that get zombified, and they are perfectly legal targets. (Technically we should probably have a body and mind transform, possibly even spirit if you want to get all religious, but I think that is def. a good spot for handwavium.) Just rule that the zombies never actually "kill" their target (They don't have an RKA at all (or at best a tiny one). Just a Transform (The bite mark is just the SFX of the first few points of the slow, cumulative transform taking effect.)

 

At least that's how I see it. Put these two together (Necro SUMMONS Zombies with Transform) and you have your Zombie Apocalypse, ready to go

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

Spirit Possessing Undead Bodies.

 

Frankenzombie - Reassembled to fight again.

 

Unlife Model Decoys

 

 

Hmmm...

 

 

QM

[Christopher]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

The case against using summon for the particular case of zombie infection:

OK, then: how does one zombie create a potentially very large number of other zombies using summon? Are you going to argue "it just does" because when the zombie is summoned it then becomes an independent character? That is certainly not how I've seen it played. There is a limit to how many summoned creatures you can have in existence at one time, using summon.

 

6.1.289 Generally, the most beings a character can have

Summoned at one time with a specific Summon based

power equals the maximum number of

beings he can Summon at once, regardless of how

many times he uses the Summon.

 

Yes, the GM can decide to ignore that rule, but if we're making stuff up anyway, we can just make zombies with Transform, can't we, or maybe Blast of Aid.

Ndreare already pointed out, wher you missid the rule.

 

The case for using Transform in the particular case of zombie infection:

There is no limit on how many things you can have transformed at any one time. You can use transform to change rocks into computers. That is a specific example in Transform. Computers can be used to control automatons. Automatons are not sentient living beings (Automatons 6.2.182*).

Wait right there:

"The GM might allow characters to create such objects with Transform, but only if they purchase appropriate Skills to give them knowledge of what they’re doing (for example, to Transform rocks into computers, the character must know Computer Programming)"

 

If I am not mistaken there is no Skill Called "Zomby creation" anywhere in the book, while the creation of Compters is a pretty mundane task in our time.

 

But jsut to make certain I asked Steve Long:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/93344-Transform-Corpse-to-Zombie

 

But, if your logic is right then I could also Transform a "destroyed" (dead) Robot (PC) into a "intact" (living) Robot PC, without the need for e resurrection power.

And for that matter I technically do not create life (only restore it) when Reaniamting a person, so I could "Transform" a corpse into the living character.

So if your logic is right, we don't need ANY form of Summon or Healing Resurrection - it can all be doen with Transform.

 

[...] I think that pretty clearly states that our single necromancer could summon up basically as many zombies as he wishes as long as he doesn't try to control them and just lets them wander off. (Yes' date=' as a GM if a PC pulled a stunt like that we would have to step in, but the rules do allow it.)[/quote']

That was my interpretation as well. For most PC's the problem is that uncontrolled Lions/Zombies tend to attack civillians - or the PC's themself- wich is not a usefull thing for most situations.

"After controll lost" coudl even be the poitn at wich Dispel fails to wrk on the Zombie.

And with Zombies, uncontrolled ones even could sire Zombies themself:

I am pretty certain there is somewhere a rule that a "Summoned being has hsi summon power disabeled".

 

Then we have power number 2. The Romero Zombie Bite Infection. This is clearly a Transform' date=' and it is perfectly legal under the rules, because it is turning a living person into an "unliving" zombie. If a zombie munches on a corpse we get digested corpse meat, no zombie. The zombies are really never shown to have the power to turn the already dead into zombies by grabbing a quick bite, its only the living, breathing, screaming ones that get zombified, and they are perfectly legal targets. (Technically we should probably have a body and mind transform, possibly even spirit if you want to get all religious, but I think that is def. a good spot for handwavium.) Just rule that the zombies never actually "kill" their target (They don't have an RKA at all (or at best a tiny one). Just a Transform (The bite mark is just the SFX of the first few points of the slow, cumulative transform taking effect.)[/quote']

Reminds me of something similar:

Avengers Season 1, Double Parter "Gamma World":

The leader (hulk foe) creates a field that let's any unshielded human transform into a (somewhat superpowered) gamma mutant, wich is also under his direct controll.

However Thor, any existing gamma Mutant (inlcuding Hulk and the bad guys) and anyone with radiation protection are immune both to the transformation and the mental enslavement. So it's propably one severe Body Transform (any human into superpowered mutant) plus a Severe Mental Transform (anyone into loyal slave of the master). Both with NND(LS: Radiation). Hulk and the gamma mutants are immune already, Black Panther and Ironman were protected by their suites respecitvely and everyone else carried a Radiation Suite (but anybody without natural defense had thier armor/suite destroyed by the end). Banner was also able to create Arrows for Hawkeeye wich "reserved" the transformation for the Avengers early.

The reverse condition seems to be "destruction of the Generator or aquiring shielding from radaition, before exposure too long" (at least Banner noted that "the longer the are under the effect, the more likely it will become permanent").

[Ndreare]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

As a side note that was a entertaining episode.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

Ndreare already pointed out' date=' wher you missid the rule.[/quote']

 

I did not miss the rule, I know what it says. It just does not seem to work well in the situation, and seems to be a bit of a kludge:the reason for summoning something is not 'to create a living/animate thing' it is 'to get something to work for you for a while'. Are we assuming a zombie bite summons a zombie? Show me how you're building that. Traditionally a zombie bite kills the bitee slowly and then the corpse rises as a zombie. How you going to do that? OK, let us assume that you can build a killing attack that works like poison or infection and slowly kills the host: how do you then build the summon? Actually build it? Bear in mind the zombie that bit you might be )really) dead and gone by the time you turn. Of course it can be done, but actually build it and it looks really messy, and pretty expensive.

 

 

Wait right there:

"The GM might allow characters to create such objects with Transform, but only if they purchase appropriate Skills to give them knowledge of what they’re doing (for example, to Transform rocks into computers, the character must know Computer Programming)"

 

If I am not mistaken there is no Skill Called "Zomby creation" anywhere in the book, while the creation of Compters is a pretty mundane task in our time.

 

KS Necromancy. The skills list is not exhaustive.

 

But jsut to make certain I asked Steve Long:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/93344-Transform-Corpse-to-Zombie

 

But, if your logic is right then I could also Transform a "destroyed" (dead) Robot (PC) into a "intact" (living) Robot PC, without the need for e resurrection power.

And for that matter I technically do not create life (only restore it) when Reaniamting a person, so I could "Transform" a corpse into the living character.

So if your logic is right, we don't need ANY form of Summon or Healing Resurrection - it can all be doen with Transform.

 

Why do we have this rather odd disconnect: what is life? Why does it matter? There is an artificial attempt to keep powers separate and it is completely unnecessary. Two powers getting to the same end point is not a problem when, as in this case, there are very different paths to that end point. You need a creature here and right now in combat? Boom! Summon is the obvious choice. You want to build a disease that changes someone over time into something else? Transform is the obvious answer. Just because you end up int he same place, does not mean that the journey did not matter.

 

Mr Long notes that you CAN create zombie or robots using Transform by the letter of the rules. If it works that way, why have an artificial rule saying it shouldn't? I mean, I know all the rules are artificial anyway, but why build rules that work that overlap in this way and then restrict their use?

 

 

That was my interpretation as well. For most PC's the problem is that uncontrolled Lions/Zombies tend to attack civillians - or the PC's themself- wich is not a usefull thing for most situations.

"After controll lost" coudl even be the poitn at wich Dispel fails to wrk on the Zombie.

And with Zombies, uncontrolled ones even could sire Zombies themself:

I am pretty certain there is somewhere a rule that a "Summoned being has hsi summon power disabeled".

 

That does not make sense: if you could dispel a zombie, then why would it make any difference at all if it were under the control of anther person? You are not dispelling control, you are dispelling whatever bought the thing here in the first place, the connection between here and undeath. If you can only create zombies by summon then why can not all zombies be gotten rid of by dispel? Kludge.

 

The rules should be consistent, and not simply situation, or there for balance. In my experience things tend to balance themselves.

 

As far as I know, if summon is one of the powers of a summoned creature then it can use it without restriction.

 

 

Reminds me of something similar:

Avengers Season 1, Double Parter "Gamma World":

The leader (hulk foe) creates a field that let's any unshielded human transform into a (somewhat superpowered) gamma mutant, wich is also under his direct controll.

However Thor, any existing gamma Mutant (inlcuding Hulk and the bad guys) and anyone with radiation protection are immune both to the transformation and the mental enslavement. So it's propably one severe Body Transform (any human into superpowered mutant) plus a Severe Mental Transform (anyone into loyal slave of the master). Both with NND(LS: Radiation). Hulk and the gamma mutants are immune already, Black Panther and Ironman were protected by their suites respecitvely and everyone else carried a Radiation Suite (but anybody without natural defense had thier armor/suite destroyed by the end). Banner was also able to create Arrows for Hawkeeye wich "reserved" the transformation for the Avengers early.

The reverse condition seems to be "destruction of the Generator or aquiring shielding from radaition, before exposure too long" (at least Banner noted that "the longer the are under the effect, the more likely it will become permanent").

 

One of the things we have been talking about, if not directly, is whether a zombie is actually unliving and therefore can be created by Transform.

 

Let me, for a moment, agree with you: zombies are alive, for the purposes of the rules, and therefore can not be created from dead matter using Transform.

 

Of course, the logical corollary of that is that zombies ARE alive for game purposes, whatever the SFX of a zombie is: that would mean, of course, that living humans can be transformed into living zombies.

 

If that is right, well, where does that leave us?

 

Look at your Avengers example: a power changes 'normal' humans into something else and gives you control over them. Is that Summon? Well: that does not work, of course, because, presumably, the normal humans can be transformed back and have to 'go somewhere' while they are transformed: summon does not get rid of the 'original': transform does. It seems like a much more sensible and straightforward way to do it. Is it Transform? Well that works...

 

How does 'Humans to Gamma Monsters' differ from 'Humans to Zombies'? Short answer: not at all - except in one way: humans transformed into zombies can only be cured by death: there probably are SOME examples of people being cured of zombieism, but generally they are dead, and gone.

 

Of course you CAN build that with Hero: some sort of killing attack triggered by the transform ending that kills the poor sap even as they cease being a zombie. It is all a bit messy though, isn't it? There does not seem to be a 'clean' way to make someone bitten by a zombie into a zombie, but, in my opinion, Transform works far better than Summon.

 

Try and build 'zombie infection' using summon and see,

[Martin2]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

If a necromancer goes into a grave yard and casts a spell it is obviously a summon power. I would also add recquires a focus of a dead body in suitable condition. If the grave yard is small or has very old graves it will have not many suitable bodies.

 

If it is converting a live person to a zombie I think it should be a transform.

 

Here is the information from the 6th Biestry.

 

Zombie’s Bite:

 

Severe Transform 8d6 (human into zombie; heals in manner specified by GM), Trigger (when zombie bites/claws victim; activating Trigger takes no time, Trigger immediately

automatically resets; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (300 Active Points); All Or Nothing (-½), Limited Target (humans; -½), Only When Bite or Similar Attack Does BODY (-½). Total cost: 120 points.

 

 

So in this case the person does not get killed but get tranformed into a zombie before they die.

 

But it would be up to the specific game. Some games may allow zombies to eat dead bodies to create more zombies but that will be like the before mention summon and not transform.

 

But if that is the case it is a GM thing and the GM can do what ever they want to creat the zombie as they can break the rules or have infinite points to do it legally.

 

It also depends on the game style as well. As currently I am watching Walking Dead and its mechanics happens when anyone dies they turn into a zombie as everyone carries a virus that turns all humans into Zombies shortly after death.

[dmjalund]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

remember, Zombie bites are performed by zombies, which are in no position to control their victim

[Martin2]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

remember' date=' Zombie bites are performed by zombies, which are in no position to control their victim[/quote']

 

But if that was the case we would not have any zombie apocolypse situations.

 

If it was true a zombie would bite a human and it would turn that human into a zombie and they would keep eating each other until one was not moving and then that zombie would move onto to the next human (or fail to convert into a zombie and still keep eating).

 

In most situations zombie bites human. Human turns into zombie. Ex human says "brains" and joins first zombie in brain hunt. Two zombies convert two more zombies, four zombies convert four zombies etc.

 

In most cases this is GM led.

 

If it is player led who wants to make zombies I do not want to play with this player!!!!!!

[dmjalund]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

but new zombie doesn't hunger for brains because the old zombie told it to. It hungers because it hungers

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

but new zombie doesn't hunger for brains because the old zombie told it to. It hungers because it hungers

 

Never understood that: zombies have brains, and we know that because hitting one hard enough in the brain kills it. Or stops it being animate. Whatever. Presumably zombies only hunger for living brains. Well, brains from the living (had we decided zombies were alive or not?).

 

Of course I dissemble: All a zombie needs is a psych lim in their template: wants to bite the living*.

 

Many zombies these days appear to be 'disease' zombies (or otherwise 'science zombies') rather than magically animated (at least there is no suggestion of magic). Whislt the person they were is dead, there is an increasing suggestion (from Shaun of the Dead to Land of the Dead to 28 Weeks Later) that zombies are actually a different sort of life, with intelligence and freewill.

 

If we go there, well, it does not help: if they are a different sort of life form then Transform works fine. So does Summon.

 

 

*Living defined as - well, good luck defining life, but definitely not animate zombies.