Dead - or just an NPC??

[Doc Democracy]

I will be running a pulp based game in the near future. I intend to have a recurring zombie type opponent in the game and was looking at the mechanics for the baddies to produce their zombies.

 

Now. I want any transformation into a zombie to be permanent and so, working on the ancient reasoning behind Transform I intend to have a killing attack by the baddies where the BODY damage is an all-or-nothing affair but if a target 'dies' (is reduced to -BODY) then the target becomes a zombie (with the small changes in ability that entails).

 

Does this sound OK? If I attack a PC with the killing attack and kill him then I am effectively making that PC an NPC and instead of changing his status from living to dead I'm changing it from alive to undead.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Doc

[Robyn]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

I want any transformation into a zombie to be permanent and so' date=' working on the ancient reasoning behind Transform[/quote']

 

If the ancient reasoning behind Transform doesn't require a reversion condition, I don't see a problem with it.

 

That said, as an all-or-nothing attack which has to double the target's Body (total, not left over) to work, I would probably okay a +0 Advantage "doesn't wear off".

 

Or, if you wanted to wear down the PC's first (not just turn them in mid-combat), add an additional Limitation that they must be reduced to 0 Body first (but they're not dead yet), you could state that lethal damage reverted them back to a dead PC

[Metaphysician]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

Don't see anything wrong with it.

[Vondy]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

It seems fine to me, mechanically speaking. On the other hand, you might do a quick thumbnail pyschological evaluation of your players. Some players hate this kind of thing. Most of my players wouldn't have a problem with it (though they would, as a group, overkill their dead commrade I suspect), but I can think of one who would take having his dead zombie character show up in the game very, very personally.

[input.jack]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

I recently ran a Zombie-pocalypse campaign, and had a similar situation with my Players. I planned to resolve it by having the PC's encounter a scientist who had been studying the zombie epidemic, and had devised a complicated treatment that would restore a zombie to life if they hadnt undergone too much tissue damage (in other words, it would restore the zombie to life, but not "heal" the damage the zombie had sustained, meaning that if the zombie had suffered wounds imconpatible with life, then reviving them would only change them from a moving zombie to a dead Human). This meant that if a PC became a zombie, the other Players would have a chance to restore the PC to life (although they would have to undertake some "side quests" to do so) so long as they didnt damage their former friend too much.

 

Somethign to think about. Zombification of a PC with no way back is a pretty traumatic ordeal for some Players

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

Zombification of a PC with no way back is a pretty traumatic ordeal for some Players

 

Moreso than just killing them?

 

I know, in my group, that I have a player who will not allow himself to be captured but I think they would all enjoy stalking and killing a zombified former member of the party.

 

 

Doc

[Lucius]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

Moreso than just killing them?

 

Does the phrase "A fate worse than death" ring a bell?

 

I know, in my group, that I have a player who will not allow himself to be captured but I think they would all enjoy stalking and killing a zombified former member of the party.

 

 

Doc

 

All of them? Including the player whose character had been killed?

 

Although this isn't too far from something that happenned to one of my characters, and I'm still not sure my new character won't someday meet a villainous not-really-"dead" version of my old character...

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders when Lucius will get around to posting his "True Transform" ideas...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

I don't usually trawl old posts but this one popped up on the 'related threads' bit of something else I was looking at, and it rang a bell in connection with the discussion recently about social skill use in the 'Striking Appearance' thread. It seems like this is another manifestation of player/author control over characters. It all comes down to whether the character is really 'you' - I can see no other reason to get upset about coming back as a zombie. It is not so much a control thing directly - if this happened, I'd be keen for the player to play the zombie, even if it meant playing 'against' former team mates - I (and I'm sure the people I play with) would see it as an interesting role playing challenge - but it does seem to be about being told how to play a character you have created, a character in which you are invested, and a character that is, on some level, you, in another world. Certainly the zombie should be fun to play and the rest of the characters should find it important to lay their former colleague to rest. I think there is a lot of potential for interesting story telling, role play and tales to tell in the pub afterwards.

 

As to the original question:

 

Zombification: Severe Transform Corpse to Zombie - 1 point, Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (ended by destroying teh corpse's head)(+1/2) (16 Active Points); Linked (Killing Attack - Ranged; -1/2)Severe Transform 1 point, Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2) (16 Active Points); Linked (Killing Attack - Ranged; -1/2) 16 active points, 11 real

 

This becomes a part of zombie attacks. If a target survives a zombie assault then the Transform does not work, but if they die then they transform into a zombie over the next several turns/minutes (depending on how many points your zombies are built on.

 

Random thought: if zombies are keen to eat brains and destroying a zombie's brains destroys the zombie, how come there is ever any more than one of them?

 

Oh, and how did it go, Doc?

[phoenix240]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

I will be running a pulp based game in the near future. I intend to have a recurring zombie type opponent in the game and was looking at the mechanics for the baddies to produce their zombies.

 

Now. I want any transformation into a zombie to be permanent and so, working on the ancient reasoning behind Transform I intend to have a killing attack by the baddies where the BODY damage is an all-or-nothing affair but if a target 'dies' (is reduced to -BODY) then the target becomes a zombie (with the small changes in ability that entails).

 

Does this sound OK? If I attack a PC with the killing attack and kill him then I am effectively making that PC an NPC and instead of changing his status from living to dead I'm changing it from alive to undead.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Doc

 

Seems okay to me. Until this thread I hadn't run into any gamers that would have a problem with the situation. Even if they felt very proprietary towards their PC once the character is dead, its out of their hands. Just goes to show "different strokes for the different folks".

[Leeland]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

It is not so much a control thing directly - if this happened' date=' I'd be keen for the player to play the zombie, even if it meant playing 'against' former team mates - I (and I'm sure the people I play with) would see it as an interesting role playing challenge - but it does seem to be about being told how to play a character you have created, a character in which you are invested, and a character that is, on some level, you, in another world. Certainly the zombie should be fun to play and the rest of the characters should find it important to lay their former colleague to rest. I think there is a lot of potential for interesting story telling, role play and tales to tell in the pub afterwards.[/quote']

 

Uhm, how would playing a zombie even be possible? Isn´t it the point of zombies that they are mindless? Saying every round "I moan and shamble closer to the PCs" a tafd boring after a few hours?

[Ndreare]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

i think one of my players would have a huge reaction with his former character coming back from the dead. he has always been a zombie fan and it would give him all kinds of joy to get a chance to ice himself.

My other two players would be indiffernt to the whole affair.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

If zombiefication is a side effect of getting killed by a zombie or necromancer, you might consider just giving the bad guy a Killing Attack and then have a Summon Zombie with OAF - freshly killed body, Trigger: when the target dies.

[psyber624]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

Really Really Weird. I read the "Automaton:Zombie" example given at the end of CC last night and started wondering how I would go about creating zombies in HERO (one of my Fav WH Fantasy characters was a Necromancer. There is just something about the fear and terror caused by forcing someone to fight off a friend or loved one in zombie form that just speaks to me.) Just goes to show you that coincidence can happen I guess (or my latent mutant psychic abilities are FINALLY kicking in)

 

Anyways, I was worried about the "Transform dead to "living" " aspect of using Transform to do this (although technically a zombie is not "alive"). I remember reading somewhere that you had to use Summon to do this because you can't change an objects "state" with a Transform (IE I can Transform a living person into a zombie with an attack, but once they are dead Transform no longer works.) I know that's an ideal place to apply a bit of handwavium, but as a thought experiment I generally like to keep my use of that mineral to a minimum (I have a susceptibility to handwavium after all, and a huge x4 vulnerability to handwavium based attacks.) My necromancer "Lord Umbral" would have groups of Followers(Perk)of different undead levels and I wanted to build a power that would let him "replace" undead that had been destroyed in battle (sfx is that he can only control so many undead, but as long as there are dead people around its really not hard at all to rebuild his losses.) Summon had issues with long term use, Transform has issues with state change. Any other ideas?

[Christopher]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

If zombiefication is a side effect of getting killed by a zombie or necromancer' date=' you might consider just giving the bad guy a Killing Attack and then have a Summon Zombie with OAF - freshly killed body, Trigger: when the target dies.[/quote']

That would be my approach as well.

 

No doubt somebody will argue:

"But there is only so many numbers of Zombies you can summon"

 

The answer is simple:

There is only so many Zombies that will "stick around" the summoner. Zombies are stupid and get distracted easily. If you only paid for 16,32 or 64 Zombies than this is the maximum number that will be around you and under direct cotnroll. The excess just wanders off looking for "Braaains" to devour....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

I recently ran a Zombie-pocalypse campaign' date=' and had a similar situation with my Players. I planned to resolve it by having the PC's encounter a scientist who had been studying the zombie epidemic, and had devised a complicated treatment that would restore a zombie to life if they hadnt undergone too much tissue damage (in other words, it would restore the zombie to life, but not "heal" the damage the zombie had sustained, meaning that if the zombie had suffered wounds imconpatible with life, then reviving them would only change them from a moving zombie to a dead Human). This meant that if a PC became a zombie, the other Players would have a chance to restore the PC to life (although they would have to undertake some "side quests" to do so) so long as they didnt damage their former friend too much.[/quote']

 

This also provides a reversion condition for the transform, to comply with the rules entirely.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

Uhm' date=' how would playing a zombie even be possible? Isn´t it the point of zombies that they are mindless? Saying every round "I moan and shamble closer to the PCs" a tafd boring after a few hours?[/quote']

 

You also get to groan 'Braaaaaaaiiiiiiiinnnns!'. Basically zombies are probably only going to be used in combat scenes and are probably going to only be used in one, so I'd let the player run the zombie, do the combat rolls and such as if he were running it as a character, but for the GM. I mean, he still has to run it as a zombie, so no cunning skill uses, stealth rolls and backstabs (although it is often the case in the movies that zombies somehow manage to sneak up on expendables), but he can retain rudimentary memory and pick his targets, maybe settle a few scores, or get 'the girl' after all (or her brains at least). I'd even be happy for the player to play the zombie badly, so long as he did it well (if that makes any sense). I can't see the zombie lasting long, but I can see it being fun for the player to use this opportunity to either help or hinder his team in a pretty guilt free manner.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

Really Really Weird. I read the "Automaton:Zombie" example given at the end of CC last night and started wondering how I would go about creating zombies in HERO (one of my Fav WH Fantasy characters was a Necromancer. There is just something about the fear and terror caused by forcing someone to fight off a friend or loved one in zombie form that just speaks to me.) Just goes to show you that coincidence can happen I guess (or my latent mutant psychic abilities are FINALLY kicking in)

 

Anyways, I was worried about the "Transform dead to "living" " aspect of using Transform to do this (although technically a zombie is not "alive"). I remember reading somewhere that you had to use Summon to do this because you can't change an objects "state" with a Transform (IE I can Transform a living person into a zombie with an attack, but once they are dead Transform no longer works.) I know that's an ideal place to apply a bit of handwavium, but as a thought experiment I generally like to keep my use of that mineral to a minimum (I have a susceptibility to handwavium after all, and a huge x4 vulnerability to handwavium based attacks.) My necromancer "Lord Umbral" would have groups of Followers(Perk)of different undead levels and I wanted to build a power that would let him "replace" undead that had been destroyed in battle (sfx is that he can only control so many undead, but as long as there are dead people around its really not hard at all to rebuild his losses.) Summon had issues with long term use, Transform has issues with state change. Any other ideas?

 

You do know we're watching you, don't you? Miniature spycams in your Hero books.

 

As to summon/transform, well, either requires the 'death' of the original target. You CAN transform a corpse into an automaton zombie - it is animated but not alive - or you could use summon. Mind you the transform would probably be cheaper. Transform works fine on dead flesh. Different scenario - would you have a problem with a gadgeteer who bought transform to build simple robots from scrap metal that could carry out one or two basic programmes? Or the same gadgeteer using the same power to build a computer? All you are doing with zombies is using smelly organics and magic rather than metal and know how.

 

BTW if you replace the 'transform' in the build I presented with a 1 pip KA and tack on penetrating or NND Does Body, you have a nasty zombie bite that will kill anyone bitten eventually, even if the original attack does not kill them instantly.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

This also provides a reversion condition for the transform' date=' to comply with the rules entirely.[/quote']

 

It would certainly allow for a living person to be transformed into a zombie and back: dead things that become zombies - and most of the source material requires death before re-animation - do not need a 'heal or revert condition' as non-living material does not heal. Transforms on the inanimate are permanent.

 

One point: whilst I would be happy for a single physical transform to create an automaton zombie from a corpse, transforming it to an intelligent, self willed zombie (there are some examples out there) or back to a living 'cured' creature would certainly require both a physical and mental transform and, depending on the game, possibly a spiritual one too. At least that is how I would rule it.

 

Of course you could side step the 'transform back' with healing and resurrection.

 

I do appreciate that this is not really what you are talking about - a living 'PC' Transformed into a zombie would have to automatically have a way to revert or heal - but it is interesting to cover all the bases and I do like the sound of my own typing.

[psyber624]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

Oh, I don't have any problem with Transforming a corpse into a zombie myself (or the scrap to robot). I was wearing my "PC" hat when I asked the question tho, not my "GM" hat. (As a GM I get to apply handwavium if it seems appropriate, but no guarantee I can do the same as a PC.)

[Christopher]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

I would consider using Transform to do it a clear violation of the rules:

"For purposes of Transform, all targets possess three traits: Body, Mind, and Spirit." (even if not much of a mind, a Zombies has a mind as it can act)

"Unliving, inanimate objects, such as stones, possess neither Mind nor Spirit;" (a corpse is by definition a unliving thing)

"A single Transform can only affect one of these three traits."

"Transform cannot deprive a target of life, nor grant an unliving thing life"

 

Creating a seperate, self acting entity is clearly in the realm of Summon. The approach for a Zombie apokalypse does not actually requires any direct controll over every zombie. You only need to be "untouchable" by the Zombies: Either normal immunity (is already another form of undead or a machine, thus not a target for zombies), some magical thing that "protects" you from being seen as a target or being attack by them (keeps them on distance; queue the heroes trying to steal/destroy that item or aquire something similar).

Since you don't need direct control, a Summon with "No Tasks" would be enough under this regime. (They might not owe you anything, but you also have nothing to fear from them - they will simply go off looking for brains) Or you propably have a plot device that has enough 5-points doublings (+110 for 4 billion. +115 for 8 billion maximum summons; unless the GM invokes absolute effect rule somepoint earlier).

 

About playing a Zombie:

Have lately been looking at the TV Trope "The Asimilator", a few examples leap to mind:

Ilithids from D&D and thier reproduction "There is also a drug that a host can take that offers a chance (no guarantees) that they will retain their identity and free will after being transformed[into an Ilithid], allowing them to keep their knowledge and skills as well."

It is also a common trait among vampires (I think any game featuring them has "sire becomes the master"-rule and there is even a special term for a Vampire that overcomes this control and kills his master - sometimes they even gain special powers).

"In World of Warcraft, the Horde faction, the Forsaken were originally undead who managed to break free from the Scourge, a huge faction consisting of cultists, undead, and necromancers."

 

There is also this interesting take on the entire Zombie apokalypse:

http://greymeat.com/comics/first

There are basically five classes of Zombies, in detail explained here: http://greymeat.com/comics/21 and the followign five pages.

Some interpretations of the entire "Locutus of Borg" story on Star Trek imply that Picard either managed to keep his individuality or was somehow allowed (by the Borg Queen) to retain some of it.

 

Another unusual approach is "Lifeforce", a 1985 SciFi Movie. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089489/ It mixes Zombie apokalypse (in London only), with Vampires and Aliens. And they have surprisingly good looking special effects for the age of the film.

 

Then there is also "last blood", where it turns out

The first Zombie is actually a Vampire that was driven mad/into a super zombie by decades of blood deprivation. He get's super infective and has controll over almost every zombie. He also manages to spread the virus quickly, by sending his first wave in cammoflage through airports - thus making any normal containment approaches that humanity could take in our age ineffective...

 

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

The mechanics of summons suggest creating an entity for a purpose, specifically to perform tasks for you, after which it 'goes away' in some manner.

 

Life and animation are not necessarily the same thing. OK, there is certainly a cross over, but I don't think that either is the absolute right way to do it. It depends what you want.

 

RE zombies:

[Ndreare]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

I am about as far from liberal as you can be. But that was just plain awesome. Thanks for sharing.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

[Christopher]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

The mechanics of summons suggest creating an entity for a purpose' date=' specifically to perform tasks for you, after which it 'goes away' in some manner.[/quote']

Nope: "The Summoned creature can choose to leave at any time, unless compelled to remain (beings from other planes of existence, such as demons or gods, are assumed to have the power to return home on their own; terrestrial beings use whatever methods of movement or travel they have available)."

What beings do after winning an EGO Contest: "It may flee, attack, return from whence it came, or do whatever else it wishes."

"Typically a character may automatically “banish” an Amicable Summoned being simply by asking/instructing it to leave (the GM may also allow a character to order a being to “leave” or “go home” as one of its tasks)"

As Zombies usually lack the ability to "get back to being death" and wishes only for one thing: "Braaaiins....", I think it will just go running around. (if it is a vegan Zombie, "Graaains..." might also be an option)

 

Life and animation are not necessarily the same thing. OK' date=' there is certainly a cross over, but I don't think that either is the absolute right way to do it. It depends what you want.[/quote']

Do you really want to argue that "Transfrom can create undead and cars" because it says "life" instead of "life and animated objects"?

"Unliving, inanimate objects, such as stones, possess neither Mind nor Spirit;"

"Characters cannot Transform inanimate objects into living beings — that’s a special effect of Summon. A chair Transformed into a frog becomes a frog, but a dead one"

"Generally, the GM should limit Healing to living creatures and PCs (regardless of how the PC is defined — a robot PC could be Healed),"

Every time the game notes "object", it say "inanimate object".

[Sean Waters]

Re: Dead - or just an NPC??

 

The case against using summon for the particular case of zombie infection:

OK, then: how does one zombie create a potentially very large number of other zombies using summon? Are you going to argue "it just does" because when the zombie is summoned it then becomes an independent character? That is certainly not how I've seen it played. There is a limit to how many summoned creatures you can have in existence at one time, using summon.

 

6.1.289 Generally, the most beings a character can have

Summoned at one time with a specific Summon based

power equals the maximum number of

beings he can Summon at once, regardless of how

many times he uses the Summon.

 

Yes, the GM can decide to ignore that rule, but if we're making stuff up anyway, we can just make zombies with Transform, can't we, or maybe Blast of Aid.

 

The case for using Transform in the particular case of zombie infection:

There is no limit on how many things you can have transformed at any one time. You can use transform to change rocks into computers. That is a specific example in Transform. Computers can be used to control automatons. Automatons are not sentient living beings (Automatons 6.2.182*). A zombie is an automaton (same page reference). You can use Transform to create different forms of unliving matter, like an automaton zombie, and you can clearly also use Transform to create a computer to 'drive' it, albeit a bit of a squishy organic one. It is not a mind as such - it does not need a mental transform.

 

Just because you can make a zombie appear with Summon does not mean you can not do it other ways too. Certainly for the mindless 'Braaaaiiinnnnsss!' zombies (just to say I very much enjoyed your vegan zombie joke) , I can not see a problem: it just seems like a better fit for everything from the the actual transformational nature of zombification to the mechanical issues that Transform does not have to contend with.

 

Of course, if the zombies start to become self willed and self aware, Transform is not a good solution, although, personally, I think a lot of the caveats in Transform are just unnecessary and illogical. I mean, if you can create matter from nothing, which you seem to be able to do with Physical Transform, why can you not create Mind or Spirit from nothing? Other than possibly religious objections, why should this be a problem?

 

 

 

*Whislt it specifically mentions zombies as automatons and says they are usually obtained by summoning, there is nothing to prevent you making one from unliving matter using transform, whether that better suits the particular case, as here.