Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

[Sean Waters]

Those templates in full

 

No real magic here, it just gives a decent starting point for three colour villains. The 30 points for skills should all be non-combat. I have little skill templates you can drop in here too

[Edsel]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

As usual.

 

I think there is a mathematical limit to all Hero Rules System discussions, they all converge to a discussion of Reductionist HERO.

 

TB

 

I hereby endorse this idea. Since I have actually gotten a PM or two beceehing me to do so.

[Edsel]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

When did you lose the papacy?

 

Actually when Dr. Anomoly reached the 100-rep power level (the first to do so) he decided that being a new god he needed a church and Pope. I did the best job sucking up and he made me the Pope of the Anomolous Pantheon. Ironically I now have more rep than him but I kinda like this humongus mitre hat so I still dress-up this way when at the computer.

 

I have no problem with Mr. Curtis remaining the Pope of the NGD. Much more chances for pointless religious strife that way.

[zornwil]

Re: Those templates in full

 

No real magic here' date=' it just gives a decent starting point for three colour villains. The 30 points for skills should all be non-combat. I have little skill templates you can drop in here too [/quote']

Cool, thanks.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Actually when Dr. Anomoly reached the 100-rep power level (the first to do so) he decided that being a new god he needed a church and Pope. I did the best job sucking up and he made me the Pope of the Anomolous Pantheon. Ironically I now have more rep than him but I kinda like this humongus mitre hat so I still dress-up this way when at the computer.

 

I have no problem with Mr. Curtis remaining the Pope of the NGD. Much more chances for pointless religious strife that way.

 

I thought you were elected during the coup, er, second election.

 

Keith "Or a watery tart lobbed a miter cap at you" Curtis

[keithcurtis]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

I like the practical examples Keith Curtis gave for resolving resolving apparent conflicts

 

The world needs more people who think like this.

 

Keith "I'm Keith Curtis and I approve this message" Curtis

[Edsel]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

I thought you were elected during the coup, er, second election.

 

Keith "Or a watery tart lobbed a miter cap at you" Curtis

No, I got my title by pure boot licking. I remember some shouting and gnashing of teeth about a religious schism within the NGD but I didn't take part in it, or at least I don't recall doing so. The Pope of the Anomalous Pantheon and the NGD Pope were always two different sects.

 

So who did pinch you mitre cap? Is the NGD church adrift in these turbulent times?

[Vondy]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

No, I got my title by pure boot licking. I remember some shouting and gnashing of teeth about a religious schism within the NGD but I didn't take part in it, or at least I don't recall doing so. The Pope of the Anomalous Pantheon and the NGD Pope were always two different sects.

 

So who did pinch you mitre cap? Is the NGD church adrift in these turbulent times?

 

There's a Board Pope?

[keithcurtis]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

I dunno. Maybe I'm still Pope. I was originally elected without my knowledge to begin with.

 

Keith "missed the meetings" Curtis

[Sean Waters]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

I dunno. Maybe I'm still Pope. I was originally elected without my knowledge to begin with.

 

Keith "missed the meetings" Curtis

 

Perhaps when you become Pope it can never be taken away while you live.

 

Like inherent.

 

Sean 'back on track' Waters

[keithcurtis]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Perhaps when you become Pope it can never be taken away while you live.

 

Like inherent.

 

Sean 'back on track' Waters

Touché.

 

Keith "Power Transfer: Papacy" Curtis

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

I understand that in a game world that you run' date=' nothing is truly inherent. Yes, you can kill a fire elemental, you just can't put him out without killing him. Extinguish the life force, extinguish the fire: they are one and the same.[/quote']

That sounds more like a Vulnerability/Susceptibility than anything to do with Inherent.

 

We are not arguing, with respect, about whether A or B is a good enough justification for taking inherent, we are talking about whether inherent has a place at all: whether there can ever be any justification for it. If we were going to start criticising what passes for game logic in many character builds, we would be here all night shredding character sheets.

Well then perhaps I misunderstood you. But you understand correctly: IMO, and IMG, there is almost no place for Inherent at all.

 

1) Most things that seem to warrant Inherent, are things no one ever buys Drains for anyway.

2) Even the godlike, cosmic beings who seem to have Inherent on some/all of their abilities might still have powers Drained by yet more powerful beings.

3) Certain SFX of Drains (or other Adjustment powers) might work by not removing the power from the target, but by changing the target's surroundings so that his power, while still there, can't be used. This is functionally the same as a Drain/Suppress, so it should best be bought as one. And yet, it should logically bypass Inherent.

 

Back in 4th ed., I once tried to calculate the actual value of a 0-point character. It starts off like this:

 

STR = 10 points (assuming you agree with the book price of STR )

DEX = 30

CON = 20

BODY = 20

INT = 10

EGO = 20

PRE = 10

COM = 5

SPD = 10

Running = 12

Swimming = 2

 

149 points so far, then you have to add in the price of all the Senses that a base human has (I don't recall exactly, and I'm not going to do all the math right now, but let's estimate that they're worth a total of 75 points - that's for normal Sight, Hearing, Smell, Taste, Touch, [and Balance and Kinesthetics, if you like]). And speech, worth, say 20 points? Manipulatory limbs, another 20 or so. Anything else? Probably, but I can't think of it now.

 

So that's a total of about 264 points for a base, 0-point character.

 

From this, you can then subtract the implied Disadvantages that a base character gets without getting points: Must have an oxygen atmosphere to breathe, Harmed by temperature extremes, Harmed by vacuum, Harmed by radiation, Harmed by various diseases/poisons, Limited life span, Requires food/water to live, Needs to sleep and excrete, etc. These together are arguable worth 50 points, since that's what it costs to buy them off.

 

So a base human is a 214+50 character. Granted, some of these numbers are just estimates, so adjust to taste as needed. The 200+150 that superheroes get is added on top of that.

[Edsel]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

I dunno. Maybe I'm still Pope. I was originally elected without my knowledge to begin with.

 

Keith "missed the meetings" Curtis

Great men do not seek leadership but often it is forced upon them.

[schir1964]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Okay, I'm finally ready to weigh in on this. (8^D)

 

There is only one instance as far as mechanics that would require the use of Inherent per the rules (no GM handwaving allowed or exceptions).

 

Extra Limbs may require the use of Inherent based on the SFX in question.

 

SFX Example:

Character is a Sentient Octopus and therefore has the standard eight tentacles. In order to build the character Extra Limbs is required to allow for the extra four tentacles since the first four (legs and arms) are freebies per the rules. So per the mechanics, these four tentacles could be affected by Adjustment Powers, which makes no sense mechanically or SFXwise, thus Inherent in this case would be required to prevent this non-sensical situation.

 

Now that that's out of the way, I need to expound upon a couple of things.

 

The first thing is that Extra Limbs probably shouldn't exist as a mechanic. Since a character's normal limbs are simply SFX of other powers/stats to start with, Extra Limbs should probably be treated the same way. You don't buy Extra Limbs to simulate extra SFX, you buy other powers with the SFX rationale that you have more than two limbs.

 

The second thing, based on the presumption of the first, is that Inherent is designed so that when applied to mechanics, it forces them to be treated as if they were SFX instead. Adjustment powers don't affect SFX, they affect mechanics. The SFX is used as guide to determine which mechanics get affected. If the mechanic targeted has the appropriate matching SFX, then the mechanic is Adjusted per the rules.

 

So the question on whether there is any need for Inherent?

Only as long as there exist mechanics that need to be treated as SFX instead.

 

Of Course... Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Here is where I think 'inherent' is appropriate:

 

Modelling what a character IS rather than what a character DOES.

 

As Christopher says it makes no sense to be able to drain the extra limbs of a character that naturally has extra limbs, and as I've said before it makes no sense to be able to drain the LS ability of a character than never needed to breathe before the power was added.

 

Now whether you use the 'inherent' advantage or you just take a trip in the GM Fiat and say 'makes no sense, I'm not allowing it', you have still done the same thing: you have decided that there are some things that adjustment powers cannot adjust. All we are then arguing about is whether that out to have a cost (I think it should), or not.

 

Phil makes an excellent case for suggesting that you can create a kind of base template for a character and my view is that most of the 'visible' template i.e. the bits that stick up above the surface like strength and running, should be drainable. I doubt I'd get much argument to that.

 

The bits below the surface, the invisible abilities, like breathing and senses, which have assumed builds and costs, shouldn't be, until and unless we have explicit costs for those abilities, which the system does not currently supply.

 

If we want to 'expand the invisible' and make more of a character untouchable, inherent is an excellent way of labelling additions tot he invisible template EVEN THOUGH we are having to make those additions with costed powers.

 

Anyway, that is what I think.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

All of this skirts around the fact that Drain: Extra Limbs is a nonsensical idea. Aside from a bizarre magical spell, what could this power possibly be modeling? Besides, a magic spell that drains extra limbs should be able to drain Extra limbs, regardless of whether a creature has them or not.

Coming up with a solution to something which is not a problem is not worth the effort. Drain Extra Limbs would be a better candidate for Transform. This would avoid the problem of the inability to drain limbs that are not "Extra".

The Drain: Fire Powers argument made much more sense.

 

Keith "Fire Elementals should be bought with SUSC: xd6 from Fire Drains ;)" Curtis

[zornwil]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Here is where I think 'inherent' is appropriate:

 

Modelling what a character IS rather than what a character DOES.

 

As Christopher says it makes no sense to be able to drain the extra limbs of a character that naturally has extra limbs, and as I've said before it makes no sense to be able to drain the LS ability of a character than never needed to breathe before the power was added.

 

Now whether you use the 'inherent' advantage or you just take a trip in the GM Fiat and say 'makes no sense, I'm not allowing it', you have still done the same thing: you have decided that there are some things that adjustment powers cannot adjust. All we are then arguing about is whether that out to have a cost (I think it should), or not.

 

Phil makes an excellent case for suggesting that you can create a kind of base template for a character and my view is that most of the 'visible' template i.e. the bits that stick up above the surface like strength and running, should be drainable. I doubt I'd get much argument to that.

 

The bits below the surface, the invisible abilities, like breathing and senses, which have assumed builds and costs, shouldn't be, until and unless we have explicit costs for those abilities, which the system does not currently supply.

 

If we want to 'expand the invisible' and make more of a character untouchable, inherent is an excellent way of labelling additions tot he invisible template EVEN THOUGH we are having to make those additions with costed powers.

 

Anyway, that is what I think.

The problem is, the system is schizoid on how to address what a character "IS".

 

It says "you can be any size, no points, just say so." Then says "extra limbs cost". Then says "human template implied, but you might have an arm where your nose is, up to you" (the latter phrase more by default and its reasoning-by-effect).

 

I agree with schir1964 - Extra Limbs is a game-level rather than a mechanical rule. And it runs afoul of the core mechanics at that point. Nothing wrong with that...but that doesn't mean we need an Inherent mechanic. We can address it a number of ways.

 

But even more, I still see no real trouble with addressing Extra Limbs without Inherent. It still, to me, depends on the Adjustment. How does the Adjustemtn drain limbs? If it works so that it would drain "any" appendage, then shouldn't it be bought as a Transform to begin with? Again, reasoning by effect.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

All of this skirts around the fact that Drain: Extra Limbs is a nonsensical idea. Aside from a bizarre magical spell' date=' what could this power possibly be modeling? Besides, a magic spell that drains extra limbs [i']should[/i] be able to drain Extra limbs, regardless of whether a creature has them or not.

 

Further, how does that spell differentiate between "extra limbs" and natural limbs? An octopus starts with 8 limbs, a human with four (2 arms, 2 legs) and an ant with 6. How does the spell know those two extra arms on that strange human are "extra", but that the octopus started out with 8 tentacles?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

zornwil and Hugh make the point that 'extra limbs' is often something that is (are?) indistinguishable from 'normal' limbs, and normal limbs cannot be drained.

 

Hmm.

 

Well, I agree normal limbs cannot be drained, but I might build some sort of telekinesis power with extra limbs, and that could, but if I was of a species that naturally had four arms then I would not expct that they could be drained (transformed, yes: drained, no).

 

SO 'normal four limbs' are inherent, why not be able to make extra limbs inherent if they represent the natural state of the charcter, but you don't want to assume that extra limbs in an inherent quality as there are clearly situations where they are not.

 

The way to differnetialte is with the 'inherent' advantage, or GM Fiat. I prefer to put a price on it. You may not.

[schir1964]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Sean,

 

The reason why I brought up the idea that Extra Limbs may not be a mechanic is that it really doesn't grant anything unique mechanic wise apart from other mechanics.

 

Perhaps I am overlooking something specific.

 

What SFX do you have in mind that couldn't be handled easily with other mechanics? (Telekinesis, Limited STR, Stretching, Higher SPD)

 

Just Curious

 

- Christopher Mullins

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

A Drain of Extra Limbs makes as much or as little sense as a Drain of human standard limbs. Has anyone ever seen/used either? If not, why spend points protecting yourself from an attack that doesn't exist?

[Checkmate]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

...and just to stir the pot with other useless things to think about: What about that characters that can use their feet as well as hands? That ability is purchased with Extra-Limbs, can they be drained of that ability?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Sean,

 

The reason why I brought up the idea that Extra Limbs may not be a mechanic is that it really doesn't grant anything unique mechanic wise apart from other mechanics.

 

Perhaps I am overlooking something specific.

 

It grants the ability to have a hand free if you are Grabbing someone with two arms, or being grabbed with two arms pinned.

[schir1964]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

It grants the ability to have a hand free if you are Grabbing someone with two arms' date=' or being grabbed with two arms pinned.[/quote']

Having one's arms pinned doesn't prevent someone from using thier Full strength against the attacker. Unless you are suggesting thier legs and head is pinned also. So effectively, this particular aspect can easily be accomplished by the skill Hogtie, or a more bust version would be entangle.

 

Now let's see if we can accomplish the same thing with other powers mechanically:

Entangle: SFX multiple arms

Stretching: SFX Multiple arms

Growth: SFX Single hand growth only to grab character, other hand pummels

Skill: One arm/hand grabs target pinning the character, the other hand pummels.

 

Standard Ability by everyone: Grab character pinning arms, use STR for damage.

 

Mechanically, there is very little difference as far as the results.

 

The only thing I could find that was mechanically specific to Extra Limbs is a free combat bonus due to SFX/Surprise. Free Combat Bonus can be achieved by inventive thinking on the players part and not worth enough to be mechanic on its own.

 

Hugh, this alone is not unique enough to be considered its own mechanic.

Is there something else I'm missing?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Having one's arms pinned doesn't prevent someone from using thier Full strength against the attacker. Unless you are suggesting thier legs and head is pinned also.

**********************************************************

Hugh, this alone is not unique enough to be considered its own mechanic.

Is there something else I'm missing?

 

The words "in my opinion" would be what I think you're missing.

 

For 5 points, the character shouldn't expect a lot of benefits from the advantage. In most games I've sen, a character who is Grabbed (and lacks extra limbs) does not have the option of Striking the person who grabbed him, or anyone else. A person in a bear hug will have a tough time inflicting a full STR head butt, and is too close for a very effective kick, or so it is generally assumed.

 

A person with extra limbs, on the other hand, can make an effectie Strike against the person grabbing him. That is a mechanical advantage.

 

Can the same advantage be purchased a different way? Sure. If all abilities should be streamlined to one mechanic, we need to ditch two of Force Field, Armor and PD+ED+Damage Resistance - they all do the same thing.