Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

[ghost-angel]

Re: But how many points would we charge for it?

 

Yep: Common Sense +1/4 When applied to a power that is already 0 END and persistent it prevents the power being affected by adjustment powers. Should only be used when appropriate. AKA Inherent.

 

Sean, first - nice shot.

 

Second - you've been having ENTIRELY too much fun with your avatar recently.

[Sean Waters]

Re: But how many points would we charge for it?

 

I was thinking more of a general' date=' "cover all bases" build for it. But this will do for now.[/quote']

 

I should point out that I full expect everyone's defintion of 'Common Sense' to be different from everyone else's, sometimes radically so

[Lucius]

Re: But how many points would we charge for it?

 

I should point out that I full expect everyone's defintion of 'Common Sense' to be different from everyone else's' date=' sometimes radically so [/quote']

 

Thus the saying that there is nothing common about common sense.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says "Hey, it's not here under Enhanced Senses!"

[Wolfgar]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Common sense says the Earth is flat. I put very little stock in it as a concept.

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

I gave my player 5 xp and told her to buy some Common Sense. She promptly started arguing that if I took her OAF from her, she'd lose the points forever because it could never be replaced. I took the 5 xp back.

[eternal sage]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

I just mention the Life Support' date=' and its LS vs. all Toxins, as an example. She also wants Inherent on Damage Resistance, Mental Defense and Regeneration. All of whichs she also wanted to add Always On. Is this just paranoia?[/quote']

 

 

First, I preface this as being a Hero GM for only about 4 months, being a vetern D&D, WoD, and SR GM.

 

It is my understanding that Inherient is something that can't be turned off either.

 

For an example I have an NPC named Geode who is a solid block of living diamond, and has been for her entire life. She cannot "turn it off" as this is her true form. It also may not be drained or anything else, (at least in my rational) because her body is made of diamond, which is naturally the hardest substance on earth, so it does not make any sense to turn off or drain her armor (for example).

 

Thus, the character has her Armor, Density*, Size*, and Damage Reduction Inherent, Persistant, and Always On, plus whatever you need to make those powers have those modifiers legally (my sheet is not nearby).

 

I may be over simplifying the rules when I say this, but I feel that any power that is a natural (physical) part of the character could be made Inherent, because those are the natural results of their makeup, build, ect. To affect Geode's armor, for instance, you would need a Transform, because by definition that is able to change the very structure and nature of the victim/object in question.

 

Also, I feel that LS is a good place to use Inherent, because if the character doesn't breath, nothing can make them need oxygen, because that is not their natural state (Examples being superman. He doesn't need oxygen, because he can fly through space without ill effects.)

 

So, in closing, I have to argue that Inherent merely sets the natural state for a character, and should often be used with Always On and Persistant, altough there are certianly times when that is not neccessary.

 

* I realize that Density and Size should not be made this way, because it says so in the book, and that I should use disadvantages ETC. But this is much simpler, so I tossed that out because I didn't see any inherent game breakers involved. Pun only partially intended.

[Vondy]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Sense is far from common and wisdom is seldom conventional.

[Lucius]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

* I realize that Density and Size should not be made this way, because it says so in the book, and that I should use disadvantages ETC. But this is much simpler, so I tossed that out because I didn't see any inherent game breakers involved. Pun only partially intended.

 

And many of us who have played for years - decades even - are in agreement with you about this.

 

In my opinion, either the Size powers shouldn't exist at all - and you should always buy Extra STR, DCV Levels, whatever, and package it and call it "Change Size" - or if you use Growth, Shrinking, Density Increase, there is no reason NOT to allow it Always On, Inherent.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Should I buy the palindromedary Always On, Inherent? It's already a Persistant beast....

[ghost-angel]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

I gave my player 5 xp and told her to buy some Common Sense. She promptly started arguing that if I took her OAF from her' date=' she'd lose the points forever because it could never be replaced. I took the 5 xp back.[/quote']

 

This sounds like an overly paranoid munchkin type. I feel for you.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

It is my understanding that Inherient is something that can't be turned off either.

A minor quibble: Technically, that is not necessarily the case. Inherent could reflect an ability that is natural, but you don't use all the time. Geode's fists (like the rest of her) are made of diamond, so she might have a few extra dice of HA, which would be Inherent, but not Always On, because she isn't continuously punching people all the time (at least I hope she isn't!).

 

And (not contradicting anything you said) a GM could also simply declare certain characters' powers Inherent or not, based on common sense, without treating it like a +1/4 Advantage (which is what I do in the infrequent times when I feel it's warranted).

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

And (not contradicting anything you said) a GM could also simply declare certain characters' powers Inherent or not, based on common sense, without treating it like a +1/4 Advantage (which is what I do in the infrequent times when I feel it's warranted).

 

I agree, Phil. If you choose to be a living diamond, or a member of the 'winged people', why should you have to pay extra to make things Inherent if a 'human' isn't required to do the same?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Whilst I do not want to discourage sensible GMing, a word of warning: yes, 'human' has certain inherent abilities (probably), or at least abilities that cannot normally be drained (but CAN still be affected by other powers), simply assuming that you can make certain abilities 'inherent' as part of the template of that character can lead to considerable imbalance.

 

For instance a character made of diamond CAN have their armour drained, by the right sfx: what if your drain works by destabilising molecular bonds to reduce defences: you might still be made of diamond, but now it flows like hot toffee. There are very few absolutes in Hero, and I would rather see some sort of imputed inherence used (if at all) for abilities that the character template logically couldn't need (like a living rock not needing to breathe) rather than assuming that any powers that a character has due to background and or sfx are in some way inherent i.e. undrainable.

 

Of course I'd argue that is the perfect territory for the 'inherent' advantage...

 

One other quick caveat, you don't get points for 'always on' unless it really is a limitation: it will be extremely rare that armour is a real limitation: they can always find some other way to give you an injection

[Sean Waters]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

I agree' date=' Phil. If you choose to be a living diamond, or a member of the 'winged people', why should you have to pay extra to make things [i']Inherent[/i] if a 'human' isn't required to do the same?

 

You might not be able to drain the SFX 'wings' but there is not reason not to be able to drain the POWER 'flight'. That is if hit by a flight drain, your wings would not vanish, they just would not keep you aloft. I don't think this is a proper use for inherent whether bought or granted for free. A normal human's running can be drained - it does not make their legs disappear, they just can not use them for movement (although they could still technically jump and kick just as well as normal if hit by a running drain: you do need to be careful how you buy these powers, with at least half an eye on how it will work in practice).

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

You might not be able to drain the SFX 'wings' but there is not reason not to be able to drain the POWER 'flight'. That is if hit by a flight drain' date=' your wings would not vanish, they just would not keep you aloft. I don't think this is a proper use for inherent whether bought or granted for free. A normal human's running can be drained - it does not make their legs disappear, they just can not use them for movement (although they could still technically jump and kick just as well as normal if hit by a running drain: you do need to be careful how you buy these powers, with at least half an eye on how it will work in practice).[/quote']

 

Maybe that's the problem. I don't believe in 'Drain Extra Limbs' I believe in 'Drain Running or flight or whatever'. I don't believe in 'Drain A Sense' I believe in 'Flash' or 'Darkness' that affects that sense. I don't believe in 'Drain Life Support' to suffocate a target, I believe in an attack that has that affect. And by those inherent rules I see no reason for Inherent.

Once again, one might argue that Inherent, on say Armor, might be appropriate but again I say buy the Power Defense. It's good to be the GM.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

I don't believe in 'Drain Extra Limbs' I believe in 'Drain Running or flight or whatever'. I don't believe in 'Drain A Sense' I believe in 'Flash' or 'Darkness' that affects that sense. I don't believe in 'Drain Life Support' to suffocate a target' date=' I believe in an attack that has that affect. And by those inherent rules I see no reason for [i']Inherent[/i].

In general, I agree, but I think there may be occasions where Drain Sense, or Drain Life Support is the power you want. When you come down to it, no "power" or natural ability is ever truly Inherent. People can lose their sight or other senses to disease or injury or other conditions, lose limbs (or the use of them), etc. Just because most of the SFX possible for a particular power would not logically work against some other ability does not mean that there isn't some reasonable method for removing that ability.

 

Example: The evil Squid Man attacks his arch enemy the Atlantean King with a power that takes away AK's ability to survive on the surface world. Atlantean King has LS: Water Breathing, and is currently in his undersea kingdom, so all is well. However, his ability to breathe air has been removed by the dastardly Squid Man. He takes no damage as long as he stays underwater.

 

Squid Man: "Ha ha! Now you won't be able to interfere with my plan to take over the surface world!"

 

One possible way to build this power is with some type of Drain of regular breathing - what seems like an inherent ability of just about every character, but isn't necessarily.

[zornwil]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

It's all about SFX, environmental interaction, and a reasonable attempt at non-exploitive (or non-unreasonably-exploitive) mechanics, to me.

 

"Drain Flight"...well, how? Are you increasing the gravity of the object so it cannot rise? Are you draining "thrust power"? Are you magically entangling "that which makes one fly?" That guides whether a Drain against Flight works against "Flight: SFX Wings" or "Flight: SFX Booster Rocket Shoes".

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

It's all about SFX, environmental interaction, and a reasonable attempt at non-exploitive (or non-unreasonably-exploitive) mechanics, to me.

 

"Drain Flight"...well, how? Are you increasing the gravity of the object so it cannot rise? Are you draining "thrust power"? Are you magically entangling "that which makes one fly?" That guides whether a Drain against Flight works against "Flight: SFX Wings" or "Flight: SFX Booster Rocket Shoes".

 

Sorry, I was just using the generic term. I do require something more specific than 'Drain Flight'.

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

In general, I agree, but I think there may be occasions where Drain Sense, or Drain Life Support is the power you want. When you come down to it, no "power" or natural ability is ever truly Inherent. People can lose their sight or other senses to disease or injury or other conditions, lose limbs (or the use of them), etc. Just because most of the SFX possible for a particular power would not logically work against some other ability does not mean that there isn't some reasonable method for removing that ability.

 

Example: The evil Squid Man attacks his arch enemy the Atlantean King with a power that takes away AK's ability to survive on the surface world. Atlantean King has LS: Water Breathing, and is currently in his undersea kingdom, so all is well. However, his ability to breathe air has been removed by the dastardly Squid Man. He takes no damage as long as he stays underwater.

 

Squid Man: "Ha ha! Now you won't be able to interfere with my plan to take over the surface world!"

 

One possible way to build this power is with some type of Drain of regular breathing - what seems like an inherent ability of just about every character, but isn't necessarily.

 

 

Isn't this an example of how to use a Transform more than an example of a Drain and Inherent?

[Lucius]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Isn't this an example of how to use a Transform more than an example of a Drain and Inherent?

 

Is it?

 

When you use Transform, you're saying that what counts is the target's total BODy. Or EGO.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary sends me a dish by parcel post.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

INHERENT PART 1

 

It's all about SFX, environmental interaction, and a reasonable attempt at non-exploitive (or non-unreasonably-exploitive) mechanics, to me.

 

"Drain Flight"...well, how? Are you increasing the gravity of the object so it cannot rise? Are you draining "thrust power"? Are you magically entangling "that which makes one fly?" That guides whether a Drain against Flight works against "Flight: SFX Wings" or "Flight: SFX Booster Rocket Shoes".

 

Arguably all (or almost all) adjustment powers should be defined as operating against sfx rather than system mechanics (or a combination of sfx and mechanics, if that makes sense) if you want anything approaching a comprehensible set of powers.

 

Nonetheless I think there is still a place for inherent, if you want a power that can't be taken away from one character because of their background/sfx/build logic, but a differently constructed character with the same power CAN have it taken away then it seems to me only right that the first character pay more points for the ability.

 

It doesn't even make a great deal of sense to argue the logic of it, if that is how a PC wants to build it, given that we are dealing with characters whose build requires suspension of at least seven types of disbelief (it would have been 8, but we can do invisibility now). Ultimately a power that can't be drained is more useful than a power that can and should cost more. It does not really matter if that power is extra limbs, or LS, or EB - you have three choices:

 

1. NO! You can't have a power that can't be adjusted.

2. YES! You can have a power that can be adjusted but you have to pay more for it.

3. YES! Nice background and sfx. So the power can't be adjusted? Cool.

 

I am all for 2.

 

1. is fine - you are just setting ground rules for your campaign.

 

3. does not make sense to me: better characters for the glib and imaginative? Why?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

INHERENT PART 2

 

The other side of this is whether abilities not defined (like the ability to breathe) should be 'drainable' or are 'naturally inherent' (or just not a part of the system you can effect with powers.

 

To me this is a cost argument more than anything.

 

If the ability to breathe in a O2/N atmosohere is a 5 point LS, then i'd say you can't drain it as it is too cheap and easy. However, if it cost a lot more I'd be more inclined to let you at it.

 

Robyn had a very interesting take on this: instead (and I'm paraphrasing) of treating the 'hidden ability' as a power, treat it as a disadvantage - assume that the ability of a 'basic' charcter is that they DO NOT NEED TO BREATHE and then build the requirement to respire as a disadvantage that the human template (amongst others) will take, which, in terms, helps to offset the cost of freebies, like the 125 points of characteristics that starting heroic humans have.

 

In that case, of course, there would be nothing TO drain.

 

This is interesting because it assumes that there is not just one layer of hidden template, but several: the human template being a modified basic template, which is far more generic in build.

 

So you can't drain the ability to breathe, as it is a disadvantage. What about draining the ability to see?

 

Well there is far more precedent to suspect that senses are hidden powers, and the cost of them is far more impressive (I make it 32 for normal sight, Hero claims it is 25, but on their stated build it is 27) and I would be less bothered about someone being blinded with a drain that had to total 25-30 points, which would be several hits in most games, and would not be any more effective really than a similarly built power like flash or darkness, or even transform. Mind you we are off exploring here - there are 'official' ways to do loss of sight - I'm just saying I would not dismiss out of hand a build that blinded an opponent by draining their 'hidden ability to see'.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

INHERENT PART 1It does not really matter if that power is extra limbs, or LS, or EB - you have three choices:

 

1. NO! You can't have a power that can't be adjusted.

2. YES! You can have a power that can be adjusted but you have to pay more for it.

3. YES! Nice background and sfx. So the power can't be adjusted? Cool.

 

or

4. IT DOESN'T MATTER. The guy who is buying a drain is the one who needs to worry about this. You shouldn't have to build your character on the contingency that someone in the campaign might someday have Drain: Extra Limb.

 

Keith "Always an alternative" Curtis

[zornwil]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Sorry' date=' I was just using the generic term. I do require something more specific than 'Drain Flight'.[/quote']

No worries, I figured as much, I just wanted to make the point, which I'll come back to in response to Sean's post as well.

[zornwil]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

or

4. IT DOESN'T MATTER. The guy who is buying a drain is the one who needs to worry about this. You shouldn't have to build your character on the contingency that someone in the campaign might someday have Drain: Extra Limb.

 

Keith "Always an alternative" Curtis

Yes, basically this is how I see it.

 

In fact, as I think through this thread, I would more heavily dispute the need for Inherent as its invocation breaks a tenant regarding how attacks and defenses normally work, essentially calling in a 100% Damage Reduction/Invulnerability effect, whereas we already have DR and PowDef as standard mechanical tools, along with SFX adjudication.

 

To Sean's second point, the Drain of fundamental bio-functions and other "template" features would seem to me to be more often a direct attack that can be best represented with standard mechanical tools - whether that's a Killing Attack, a Transform, or other methods.

 

Which sums up, to me, to be a weak case for an Inherent Advantage as a standard toolkit offering. Of course, it's fine "in one's game" and I like the idea of it as an option. But I think we can state there are literally millions of options we COULD put into the core system - it doesn't mean we should.

 

(After all, doesn't it also make sense to give DOJ some space to publish more books with more options, too? )

[TaxiMan]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Cool posts, made me think. If you want perfect defense against Drains etc., you could buy everything Inherent. So for a 350 pt character, you could end up spending 70 points for the +1/4 advantage (fuzzy due to beginning stats and Limitations applied).

 

 

For 70 pts, you could buy a lot of Hardened PowD. But I guess Inherent also protects against NND Drains too....