Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

[Ghost Archer]

I don't use it but I have gotten a huge case of heartburn over this advantage. What I have is a newbie player/GM that wants to add it to everything and I can't make her understand why I don't use it. She is so worried about someone draining her Life Support. BTW, I am talking Superhero.

 

The example I used against the whole Inherent thing was this:

 

I have an ice-based character with a Running Drain. A sheet of ice that covers an area. Now I know you will all understand the concept. My thing is, my legs are inherent, inherently, so why buy Inherent? And if I buy my Running Inherent, does that mean I can run on that ice without penalty?

When do you use Inherent? Can someone give me an good, logical example? I mean, am I the only one that thinks this should just be tossed out of a character build in favor of Power Defense?

[BNakagawa]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

True, your legs are inherent. What they do is not.

 

So if the drain affects the function of the legs, that's fine. They do not slowly wither the limbs to nubs, they make it difficult for them to do their intended job.

 

An example of what inherent is good for is extra limbs. An entity that simply has extra limbs all the time would be perfect for buying extra limbs as inherent. A low cost power like extra limbs is very easy to suppress/drain into nothingness and it doesn't make any sense for a cheap adjustment to make someone's limbs disappear.

[David Johnston]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Well of course as of current editions, Drain Running isn't a particularly good way to represent slippery ice sheets. Never really was of course, but it was the only available alternative in the past. However the beefing up of Environment Change represents such things much better than the clumsy workaround of a Power attack.

 

As to the central issue of course, inherent is usually inappropriate for powers that do things like violate conservation of energy, Newton's laws of motion, and similar minutia. About the only exception I can think of is a ghost's permanent intangibility.

[Robyn]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

An example of what inherent is good for is extra limbs. An entity that simply has extra limbs all the time would be perfect for buying extra limbs as inherent. A low cost power like extra limbs is very easy to suppress/drain into nothingness and it doesn't make any sense for a cheap adjustment to make someone's limbs disappear.

 

Nor for dying to make them go away, but that's what lack of Independent would do. (Logically speaking, of course; but do SFX matter when the power isn't build that way?)

 

This is why I was looking for the writeup of normal squids or octopi a while back - I was wondering whether they included "Inherent" or "Independent" in the build.

 

(FWIW, the HERO Bestiary includes neither of those Modifiers under "Giant Squid", "Giant Octopi", and "Giant Spider".)

 

So what happens when the PC's are starving to death on a small raft, and about to fight each other for the right to cannibalism, when all of a sudden a giant squid attacks and they kill it? How much Life Support: Does Not Need To Eat can they get from eating the creature's flesh? Doesn't the flesh vanish when the power goes away? Or, if the flesh is merely part of the story (SFX justifying the power "Extra Limbs"), how does this SFX justify so many meals?

 

If you ask me, this is one of the "Assumptions within HERO". Anything which is defined as having physical mass, continues to have physical mass, without some power which specifically makes it vanish.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Well, it's house rule territory, but I've determined that I don't like the official rules for being always big or always small (thanks to this board, naturally), and use Persistent, Inherent, and Always On for such.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

My shapeshifting character has a form that is a Ghost. Two Powers were bought Always On and Inherent (plus all the other needed Advantages) to simulate their ethereal nature: Desolid and Flight.

 

You can't make this shape Solid by Supressing/Draining/Dispeling their Desolid Nature. It's just a fact that they are that way all the time in that shape. A Transform and forcing a Shapeshift are the only ways to not make this character a ghost in this shape.

 

There is as good a logical use for the Inherent Advantage as I can give you.

 

Inherent does not, however, remove the ability to restrict the character. Sure your arms are Inherent, but that doesn't prevent you from restraining or otherwise prevent someone's arms from being used (lopping them off for instance).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

inherent is a good way to build cheap stuff that can't normally be adjusted, for instance, if you have extra limbs, a drain would not make them go away, for a lot of sfx, so it makes sense to make them inherent, and it is cheap to do so and far more convenient than buying a lot of power defence and limiting it heavily.

 

Incidentally uou could make an entire 350 point powerset inherent for about 95 points

 

Also it avoids confusion over transformations, which also use power defence as a defence.

[Robyn]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Inherent does not' date=' however, remove the ability to restrict the character. Sure your arms are Inherent, but that doesn't prevent you from restraining or otherwise prevent someone's arms from being used (lopping them off for instance).[/quote']

 

Hmm . . . so, lopping someone's arms off could be done as a Transform (with reversion condition: healing the BODY damage; rather convenient, that, considering the overlaps between their defenses and conditions for "effects going away"), essentially? Interesting.

 

That would, if nothing else, be an interesting way to get heroic players to have their characters act heroically:

 

"I'm sorry . . . you cannot hurt the villain that way, because you have not paid the points for an appropriate Transform. Save up your XP, and we can talk about it."

 

It would also be an interesting way for Point of Origin rules to affect play; if the beam comes from your arm, then logically you can no longer use that power if you no longer have that arm (attached to your body)

 

That's almost a Focus-like effect, though, so should the player write it down on their sheet?

 

Another thought - if the character took Inaccessible to reflect the fact that their cybernetics could not be disabled without access to the PC's arm, a toolkit or workshop, and stillness on the arm's part; this would be (as a Limitation) worth something. But if the energy blast came from the character's hand, would this be just SFX since the power could not normally be blocked? Or would the Limitation be valued at -0, and written down on the character sheet anyway?

 

Another thought - if the hand is smashed/mangled, does the power stop working? I mean, the hand is still physically there - it's just been deformed, injured some. We're not talking "lopping off the hand" here. But maybe we can take the skin off. If the power normally comes from the hand, and visibly comes from a single point on the surface of the hand (not making the whole arm glow with energy), wouldn't it be logical to assume that the skin was the source of a power? Or would this only be if the power was bought as "Indirect": any point of origin? If you skin the hero, do the powers go away?

 

This topic is related to too many other threads, IMO

 

Incidentally uou could make an entire 350 point powerset inherent for about 95 points

 

Does that cost include the reduction for those 95 points which aren't being made Inherent? I mean, assuming that you got the points for Inherent out of those 350.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

 

 

Does that cost include the reduction for those 95 points which aren't being made Inherent? I mean, assuming that you got the points for Inherent out of those 350.

 

I didn't solve it as a quadratic equation, I just added 125 (your base characteristic cost) to 350 and divided by 5. Yes it does make the inherent points inherent: double protection

[Robyn]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Yes it does make the inherent points inherent: double protection

 

I'm confused as to how this part works. Are you applying the Inherent modifier (not normally a power, just a Modifier) as a Naked Advantage?

 

I didn't know NA's could apply to multiple powers at once, though I suppose that treating the character as one giant power is the most sensible way of affecting every ability they have at once.

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

It seems to me that Inherent is trying to make Common Sense a game mechanic. As a GM, I am not going to allow someone to Drain a ghost's Desolidification. Why? Common sense. Nor am I going to allow someone to Drain a monkey's tail because it's an Extra Limb. That's all Common sense. They are BODY parts. Buy a Transform! Come on, I know the human race totally lacks common sense as a whole but damn!

If you build an energy blast with no limitations, to me that's Inherent. If you don't want it Drained, buy Power Defense! The more I think about this thing the less I like it. Can't anyone give me a common sense justification?

 

On another note:

 

Originally Posted by David Johnston

Well of course as of current editions, Drain Running isn't a particularly good way to represent slippery ice sheets. Never really was of course, but it was the only available alternative in the past. However the beefing up of Environment Change represents such things much better than the clumsy workaround of a Power attack.

 

To me Change Environment was never supposed to have any real effect on combat. This is one of those 'using one power to create the effect of another power' things. Drain and Suppress are designed to do just that, Drain and Suppress. That isn't Change Environment's purpose, it is supposed to simulate minor effects a character can have on the surrounding area. The key word is minor. By taking an CE that provides a -6" of Running to an area, you effectively stop the movement of anyone with only 6" of ground movement no matter how powerful they are. Is that a minor effect? I don't think so. It's just a cheap way of duplicating an existing Power.

 

For example:

 

Change Environment 16" radius, -6" of Running costs 40 Active points

 

Drain Running 4d6 (standard effect: 12 points), Area Of Effect (16" Radius; +1 1/2) costs 100 active points.

 

Does Change Environment seem like a minor effect at that point? No. Seems pretty major to me. 60 points worth of major. I smell Munchkinism.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

It seems to me that Inherent is trying to make Common Sense a game mechanic. As a GM' date=' I am not going to allow someone to [i']Drain[/i] a ghost's Desolidification. Why? Common sense. Nor am I going to allow someone to Drain a monkey's tail because it's an Extra Limb. That's all Common sense. They are BODY parts. Buy a Transform! Come on, I know the human race totally lacks common sense as a whole but damn!

If you build an energy blast with no limitations, to me that's Inherent. If you don't want it Drained, buy Power Defense! The more I think about this thing the less I like it. Can't anyone give me a common sense justification?

 

 

 

Try and build an energy blast that can't be drained without using 'inherent', then come on back and we'll chat about common sense.

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Try and build an energy blast that can't be drained without using 'inherent'' date=' then come on back and we'll chat about common sense.[/quote']

 

Power Defense. Isn't that what it's for?

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Besides, Inherent can only be applied to Persistant powers that cost Zero END.

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

FYI:

 

Energy Blast 10d6 plus Power Defense (50 points); Only Provides Defense for this power (I'd have to give it a -2 because it's pretty severly limiting a power that normally affect the entire character; -2) costs 67 points, 75 if you reduce the limitation to only -1

 

Energy Blast 10d6, Inherent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) costs 112 points.

 

How's that? Is it my turn to get all munchkiny?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

You should still take special effects and common sense into account when adjudicating Inherent. Sure, you can't Drain or Suppress a monkey's prehensile tail and make it permanently vanish, but you could still disable it (Entangle, Grab, duct tape, etc.) even if it's bought Inherent. Or you could chop it off; which Inherent would in no way prohibit. The sfx of both the Inherent Power and the specific attack needs to be considered.

 

Consider the alien's infrared vision in the movie Predator 2. The government agents filled a room with a gas that prevented the predator from using its IR Vision, so you might consider that a Suppress. Even if the IR Vision was Inherent, that doesn't mean it will always work or won't be functional on occasion. Inherent is just a little extra protection from Drains and the like; and a rather expensive one in most cases. I think it's mostly intended to protect low-cost Powers like IR or UV Perception or Extra Limbs from being Drained and leaving a character blinded or crippled for absurdly long periods because of the low Active Point cost.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Power Defense. Isn't that what it's for?

 

Master Blaster is an energy spirit and,even at his lowest ebb, can always summon a 6d6 EB, which cannot be taken away from him while he lives.

 

Using inherent it would have to be 0 END and persistent, so would cost

30 x +1 1/4 = 67 points. In effect you have devoted 22 points to making the power undrainable, as you would have bought the power to 0 END anyway. The persistent probably does not add much to the build so we will say the whole cost of that, and of inherent contributes.

 

Now doing the same style of thing with power defence, you would need enough power defence to stop the largest drain or supress the campaign can muster, so assuming 12DC attacks, we are looking at 6d6 drain or 12d6 supress. Now a 12d6 supress averages 42 points, but you should probably cover at least 50 to be sure.

 

Then you'll need to harden that to make sure penetrating and AP attacks don't sneak through. Actually better cover both, so that is +1/2, so we are up to 75 active points. Realistically the largest limtiation you are likely to get is -2 for limtiing the power defence to the energy blast and itself, so we are down to 25 real points, i.e. more than we spent using inherent AND you are not protected against really lucky rolls, adjustment powers with the 'cumulative' advantage, NND or AVLD adjustment powers, triple penetrating drains....the list goes on.

 

Now this uses an example where the only reason to add persistent, really, is to gain the inherent advantage and it is STILL a better bargain, and a more effective and sensible build. If you were applying this to something like shapeshift, wehre you are getting positive advantages from persistent, it is even more of a bargain (assuming the 'base cost' of shapeshift is again 30 points, you would only be devoting 7 character points to make the power undrainable).

 

Now inherent DOES have a downside - it stops ALL adjustment powers, so you cannot succor or aid the power either. Can anyone think of a really cheap and easy fix for that little problem?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

FYI:

 

Energy Blast 10d6 plus Power Defense (50 points); Only Provides Defense for this power (I'd have to give it a -2 because it's pretty severly limiting a power that normally affect the entire character; -2) costs 67 points, 75 if you reduce the limitation to only -1

 

Energy Blast 10d6, Inherent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) costs 112 points.

 

How's that? Is it my turn to get all munchkiny?

 

See my other post above (I must admit I missed this one when posting it )

 

The problem with this build (and it is nice to see us agree onthe appropriate elvel of power defence for the effect) is that it is not a perfect or even near perfect defence. I will give you that the larger the power that yuo want to protect the more economical the effect becomes as the cost of the power defence is effectively fixed (although as you protect more the limtiation value would fall and so the cost would in fact rise).

 

The point to ask yourself though is this: do the power defence and inherent options do exactly the same thing? I would have to say they do not. If that is the case then it is nice to have both because then you can model the effect you want.

 

Now your original post referred to a GM/newbie who wanted to make life support inherent.

 

This makes a great deal of sense in the right situation. If the character is an air elemental it makes no sense for any power to be able to suffocate her, so buying LS: Extended breathing (self contained, inherent) 12 points makes enormous sense. LS is already persistent so no worries about wasted costs there. If the LS (self contained) comes from an oxygenating implant in the lungs ogf an otherwise normal human metabolism, it shouldn't be built that way as it makes no contextual sense: an implant like that probably could be affected by the right sort of adjustment power. However adding limited power defence at a meaningful level tot his will cost just as much as for your 10d6 energy blast, and so does not make economic sense. Making the power inherent and limiting the inherency (not inherent against EMP type effects, for example) would make more sense.

 

The newbie may be overusing the advantage but that does not make the advantage worthless.

 

Oh, and if you would like to get all munchkinny, do feel free.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

I'm confused as to how this part works. Are you applying the Inherent modifier (not normally a power, just a Modifier) as a Naked Advantage?

 

I didn't know NA's could apply to multiple powers at once, though I suppose that treating the character as one giant power is the most sensible way of affecting every ability they have at once.

 

It ws a bit of a throwaway comment.

 

The actual cost of making an entire character build 'inherent' will vary with the character build as, in order to apply it, the power or whatever it is to be applied to has to be 0 END and persistent. You might be able to build a brick with entirely persistent powers and characteristics and, applying 'inherent' to each one will cost about 95 points (there will be some rounding and you probably won't need it for your skills as they generally cannot be drained)

 

A character built mainly with instant powers is going to cost an awful lot more.

 

I don't hink that you can really buy 'inherent' as a naked advantage.

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

I just mention the Life Support, and its LS vs. all Toxins, as an example. She also wants Inherent on Damage Resistance, Mental Defense and Regeneration. All of whichs she also wanted to add Always On. Is this just paranoia?

[Utech]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

I just mention the Life Support' date=' and its LS vs. all Toxins, as an example. She also wants Inherent on Damage Resistance, Mental Defense and Regeneration. All of whichs she also wanted to add Always On. Is this just paranoia?[/quote']

 

I think it is clear that you do not care for Inherent. That's cool. Why not just tell your player that you won't be using it in your game? You can go on to explain that you prefer Power Defense if that is, in fact, your preference.

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

I think it is clear that you do not care for Inherent. That's cool. Why not just tell your player that you won't be using it in your game? You can go on to explain that you prefer Power Defense if that is' date=' in fact, your preference.[/quote']

 

I have. And it was will trying to explain my reasons that the whole heartburn thing came up. I was just wondering what others thought of it.

[Robyn]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

I just mention the Life Support' date=' and its LS vs. all Toxins, as an example. She also wants Inherent on Damage Resistance, Mental Defense and Regeneration. All of whichs she also wanted to add Always On. Is this just paranoia?[/quote']

 

Does the Regeneration have "from death"? It seems to me that she wants to make sure her character cannot be (negatively) affected in the ways she doesn't want to play. There's nothing wrong with that; she's trying to use the system to ensure that the sessions you run don't wander into stories that are uncomfortable for her to roleplay. Ask her in what ways she does see her character being negatively afflicted; if she seems to have so few that you don't think you could challenge her character often enough, point out that fun can arise from complications and difficulties.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

Power Defense applies across the board to Adjustment Powers. Or it heavily limit it to apply to just the Powers you don't want Adjusted.

 

Inherent Powers also can't be turned off (without GM permission).

 

Going back to the Ghost:

 

Desol Boy can turn into a Ghost Form and walk through walls, all the nifty stuff (Desol). But it's not an Inherent part of his nature, he can become solid. You can stop Desol Boy with Drain/Supress/Dispel of appropriate SFX (we'll assume someone has one).

 

the spooky Ghost in the attic is always Desol, it can never become solid and affect the real world. It's Desolid capabilities in Inherent to it - it can no more turn off "Desol" then you can turn off your arms.

 

Inherent is saying more than "you can't Drain/..." my Power. It's saying "This capability is an inherent, integral part of the character/creature at a basic level"

 

The player who is buying Inherent to prevent Adjustment Powers from hurting them is a munhckin and should be stomped. And should buy Power Defense. It'll probably be cheaper in the long run anyway.

[Vondy]

Re: Inherent, does anyone use it? How?

 

I hate adjustment powers specifically designed to neuter a character, so I use it where I think its logically apropos. There's nothing like a 277 point character who is purchased +1/4 Inherent. I kid, I kid. But yes, I use it, on just about any power that is, by definition, inherent.