Picking up and using weapons

[zornwil]

Re: Picking up and using weapons

 

In general' date=' if a character wants to use something they didn't pay points for in a given scene I don't have a problem with it because its an integral element of the scene in question. If they want to keep it for future use (in other scenes, or other adventures, as appropriate) then they need to pay points for it. The exception to this, IMO, is non-combat equipment that would be generally available to the "everyman" with the same income level as the character.[/quote']

That's basically where I see handguns as a non-issue in a supers campaign that isn't low-level/"Dark Champions" style. They are in combat, but their overall effect is relatively negligible.

 

As an aside, to Macamboy, I want to be clear that I have no aversion to a campaign where supers might loot bodies and so on. The real issues are what is the group desire in playing supers (you mention it's "realistic", a "normal" world otherwise, so I strongly suspect people aren't expecting a traditional supers game, and personally I don't really prefer traditional if traditional = orthodox 4-color), and power balance in how you manage taking things from people and reusing them. The first issue is all you and your play group and I think any discussion on the play style is for another thread, probably best in the Champions thread. The second issue has been well-discussed above, but I will add on one more option: determine the approximate Active or Real Points for conventional (i.e., what is available to many people rather easily) equipment and determine some sort of floor level that has no charge because it is well below the supers' level, and declare anything greater than floor level has to be paid for - to keep it simple, I wouldn't have a "differential" payment for the points above floor level, I'd just say you have to pay the whole thing, although the Real Points for true conventional equipment is often not so high as you have Lims such as Real Weapon and so on which should inhibit their usefulness.

 

Wait - PS - as I think someone else mentioned, Resource Points from Dark Champoins might be the perfect fix.

[pinecone]

Re: Picking up and using weapons

 

Yeah, grab an item, no problem....keep an item (except as a "trophy") and you should pay...if this is a major schtick then pay for a "Loot,loot loot!" Gadget pool: Items I stole from "Bad" people.......otherwise you out of genera and that costs EP's or otherwise causes greif because comic book characters don't act that way.....

[Wolfgar]

Re: Picking up and using weapons

 

The main argument for "I can just pick up his gun and keep it" is realism. How realistic is it that you can loot some fallen opponents of all their possessions, and all fallen opponents of some of their possessions, but you can't loot all fallen pponents of all of their possessions.

 

I'm quite OK with saying "you want it for a scene, that's just playing the game, but if you want to keep it, you pay the points - those are the rules". Why? because those ARE the rules. You want your character to have a handgun, you pay for a handgun. If you want him to have one from inception, you pay the points on character creation. You want him to get a gun later, you pay for it with xp at that later date. No points, no gun.

 

I never said it couldn't be looted. I said whether it worked or not. Everything can theoretically be looted, not everything will work.

 

If the intent was a traditional Supers campaign, the players' decision to loot (or turn a blind eye to looting) has already shifted the focus of the game. The real key here is for the GM and players to agree on the ground rules of the game. That may be "We're SuperHeroes - no looting" It could be "Sure, you can loot - but the consequences will be in play". Or you could decide "Looting is a part of the game - consequences will be uncommon". But everyone needs to be on the same page in this regard.

 

This is one player's choice in the above example. Now yes, you could decide to make his life a living Hell over a handgun, drag him to court, pull up some CSI stuff, whatever, because of what one completely non-unbalancing action of one guy, or you can actually get on with the game in progress. My point is not to derail your own game overreacting to a non-issue.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Picking up and using weapons

 

I never said it couldn't be looted. I said whether it worked or not. Everything can theoretically be looted' date=' not everything will work.[/quote']

 

I don't see "anything I the GM view as unbalancing suddenly stops working" being any more realistic than "you can't loot the bodies". Granted, it's also no LESS realistic.

 

This is one player's choice in the above example. Now yes' date=' you could decide to make his life a living Hell over a handgun, drag him to court, pull up some CSI stuff, whatever, because of what one completely non-unbalancing action of one guy, or you can actually get on with the game in progress. My point is not to derail your own game overreacting to a non-issue.[/quote']

 

My preference is to get the group on board for the type of game we're running. If all the players want the "loot the bodies" approach, let's game that way. If some do and some don't, we need a decision as to which approach we're going to take.

 

Certainly, it's not realistic that Character A cannot steal the handgun. Is it realistic, given their own personality traits and character designs, that his teammates are OK with this? Hey, if I'm KO'd next time, will he steal my wallet too? [Maybe I have "PLAYER CHARACTER" glowing ovrer my head in 6" letters so I'm exempt ] All the players need to be on board as to the type of game we're playing. My "four colour Super" would consider this looting unacceptable, and one of us would likely need a new character for this game. If all the PC's are OK with the "loot the body" scenario, then I see no problem frm a playing perspective.

 

From a balance perspective, watch out for the loot starting to be things that are less balancing. We agree that really out there tech probably can't be maintained for long by a character lacking knowledge of the item. But what about more mundane objects like, say, riot gear. A nice little boost to agent-level defenses, and fairly common. But there's no good reason I can't loot it, and maintaining and using it should be no more an issue than that gun. But now we al get a few more rDEF, so we're that much tougher to take down. Plus, as GM, I have to ask myself why all the villains don't equip themselves similarly.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Picking up and using weapons

 

I never said it couldn't be looted. I said whether it worked or not. Everything can theoretically be looted' date=' not everything will work.[/quote']

 

This is precisely the sort of thinking I speaking out against. Maybe it's the system, and this is how y'all think - maybe it's the game, and I'm using it to different ends than everyone else seems to be. But come ON. I pulled that whole "didn't flick the safety off" crap when I was much younger and less experienced - looking back on it, it seems so horribly, horribly petty.

 

It's a PISTOL. He picked it up. It'll run out of ammo on his own; I think the best response so far was (sorry I'm not in a position to check who said it) but it creates all KINDS of groovy plot lines if that's the direction you want to go. But there's no need to do that - none. As I often say, and in this agree, this is completely a GM call.

 

I ... I disagree philosophically with the idea that just because someone picks up a gun everyone leaps to the conclusion that it 'must be taken away' or the PC in some way must be 'dealt with.' As I've often said, I come from the d20 school and picking up spare gear is common. I just don't see where the problem comes from.

[zornwil]

Re: Picking up and using weapons

 

This is precisely the sort of thinking I speaking out against. Maybe it's the system, and this is how y'all think - maybe it's the game, and I'm using it to different ends than everyone else seems to be. But come ON. I pulled that whole "didn't flick the safety off" crap when I was much younger and less experienced - looking back on it, it seems so horribly, horribly petty.

 

It's a PISTOL. He picked it up. It'll run out of ammo on his own; I think the best response so far was (sorry I'm not in a position to check who said it) but it creates all KINDS of groovy plot lines if that's the direction you want to go. But there's no need to do that - none. As I often say, and in this agree, this is completely a GM call.

 

I ... I disagree philosophically with the idea that just because someone picks up a gun everyone leaps to the conclusion that it 'must be taken away' or the PC in some way must be 'dealt with.' As I've often said, I come from the d20 school and picking up spare gear is common. I just don't see where the problem comes from.

While I happen to agree in this case it is probably not of substantial concern in and of itself, as others have, I think it's a bit unfair to see "no" problem in the precedent set (if it is seen as a precedent) given the combination of the way HERO balances (as opposed to how d20 balances, if we're talking about traditional class and level constraints) and the genre. You have said before you may or may not be reading subsequent posts in a thread, so perhaps the degree of response in your post is driven by lack of reading, but I think that while the situation in and of itself may be fine, it's not as if there's no reason to discuss the issue.

 

Secondly, this isn't d20, this is hERO, and there is a general philosophical leaning against "loot bodies" in supers games, primarily because of balance problems in "traditional" supers games where high-points gear is regularly available via "loot bodies" (PS - as well of course due to genre concerns and the kind of game many wish to play). Naturally enough, it can be dealt with, but there is a need to consider a way of dealing with it, whether via plot/story development or rules. And of course there is a general philosophical reaction of many against "kill stuff, get stuff" mentality, a general reaction against what is perceived as (somewhat unfairly these days, but still only somewhat) a core d20 (more really D&D) philosophy.

 

In other words, saying "I"m from a d20 background" hardly makes a dent of difference in this case, actually it's nearly a disqualification from comment, though it's a nicety to be clear on that background.

 

Although I agree that brute force in-game methods of dealing with such situations, in any system, do not work well. That being said, brute force metagame methods ("you can't do that because of the type of game we wish to develop here") or appropriate metagame-supported in-game actions of course are fine.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Picking up and using weapons

 

Fisrt things first, let us be clear: the Hero superheroic approach to 'stuff' is not realistic - i.e. you pay for everything that you pick up, unless it is very temporary. this is not modelling a real-world scenario, and so you can not apply eral-world arguments to it. It is a genre thing, so there is no point in trying to justify it or stop it by cunning in-game dodges (like the firing pin/ammo thing) because there is always going to be another gun and they can't all be broken. You can't even play the 'de minimis' rule and say that a normal handgun will have such an insignificant effect you can let it slide - because at some point they are going to pick up something more effectvie and you will have set a precedent.

 

The solution here lies in the human interface. Talk to the player. Explain why those actions are not appropriate in this type of game, and see if you can reach a solution. If this is not the sort of game the player wants to play then you might have to think about changing the style of play to heroic (even if you are using superheroes) or just telling the player that you'll call them when you're playing a game they will like. Any decent player can adapt with only minimal whining.

 

If the player really does want to do this kind of thing and you don't want to boot them, you will have to make your mind up how to handle it. Here's an idea. Have a gadget villain note the predeliction fo the character for appropriating equipment, and have him equip his henchment with weapons and armour booby trapped to do something nasty on a radio signal or after a certain number of uses. Losing a hand is a great way to learn to listen to the GM. Also it is a neat way to balance the points

[Dust Raven]

Re: Picking up and using weapons

 

I've GM'd Champions on an off for the same group of players for a few years now, and never come across this one before, but I'm sure some of you will have.

 

One of my players picked up a gun dropped by a thug and wanted to keep it. Another player, who also knows the HERO rules quite well, mentioned that weapons should be bought with points. Whilst, according to the rules, this is correct it is not very realistic.

 

My question to you is how do you handle this situation?

Given your clarifications, the way I'd go is make the player pay points for keeping the weapon. Weapons are bought as Powers in a superheroic game, and Powers cost points. Pay the points or you don't have the Power. If he just wants to use it for the rest of the combat then drop it, fine, anyone can do that. If he wants to hold onto it until it runs out of ammo, is taken from him or it breaks, then I'd be fine with that as well, and as GM I'd make sure it happens by the end of the current adventure (or between this one and the next).

 

If he wants to keep it throughout the rest of the campaigh, he'd just have to pay points for it like anyone else who wants a gun.

 

I ... I disagree philosophically with the idea that just because someone picks up a gun everyone leaps to the conclusion that it 'must be taken away' or the PC in some way must be 'dealt with.' As I've often said, I come from the d20 school and picking up spare gear is common. I just don't see where the problem comes from.

 

Well, the d20 system is specifically designed for character to loot. If they don't loot, they don't gain in power. Hero isn't like that.

 

Howerver, there are many "realistic" considerations to take concerning this. Certainly there is no cosmic entity that prevents some people from keeping a gun while allowing others to. But with most Champions games, cops can get involved. What happens if the hero(es) decide to keep the evidence? Thugs go free. Hell, the cops probably can't even press charges without the thug's weapon as evidence. What if that weapon was used in the commission of other crimes, then the "hero" is caught with it? How are the cops supposed to tell the difference between a masked avenger of the night who witholds evidence from the authorities and a two-bit thug with a gun? In any case, this guy is now carrying around an illegal firearm/weapon and is commiting several crimes just being in possession of it, and more if he actually uses it.

 

The good guys aren't supposed to keep the villains weapons. Not only is it not genre, it's not practical, and it's not realistic to do so (and get away with it).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Picking up and using weapons

 

I ... I disagree philosophically with the idea that just because someone picks up a gun everyone leaps to the conclusion that it 'must be taken away' or the PC in some way must be 'dealt with.' As I've often said' date=' I come from the d20 school and picking up spare gear is common. I just don't see where the problem comes from.[/quote']

 

"This is the way it's done in d20" doesn't much cut it as a reason to do it that way in Hero, in my opinion. If d20 did everything right, why shouldn't we all just play d20. For the record, I play both Hero and D&D, and there are pros and cons to both.

 

In D&D, looting is part of the genre, is essential to keeping pace with the expected power levels and is not discouraged in any way by the game mechanics.

 

In Hero, in a Heroic game, looting may or may not be part of the genre, may or may not be essential to keeping pace with the expected power levels and is not discouraged in any way by the game mechanics.

 

In Hero, in a Superheroic game, looting is not part of the genre, is irrelevant to keeping pace with the expected power levels and is prohibited by the game mechanics. How many different attacks (not to mention other powers) should a Super like the Flash have by now if he looted his fallen opponents?

 

The decision that needs to be made for the game that brings up the issue is whether this is a Heroic or Superheroic game. If looting is permitted, then it is permitted, and the GM should be comfortable with the ramifications, both mechanical (any focus you put in will likely fall into the hands of the PC's so be prepared for that power increase) and in terms of game style (will having the Justice Avengers stealing the Legion of Badness' wallets and credit cards enhance your game or detract from it?).

 

The fact that a gun must be purchased with points in a superheroic setting is no more or less "realistic" or "arbitrary" than setting starting statistics at 3 - 18, or increasing the costs of statistics beyond certain base levels (NCM or d20 point-based stat purchases both do this) or deciding that Rangers base attack bonuses rise at one rate, clerics at another and wizards at a third. There's no "realistic" reason that all fighters are proficient with all martial weapons, armor and shields, or that you get new feats every 3rd level instead of picking up two at 6th level. These are game mechanics, intended to simulate the genre and hopefully make for interesting and balanced game play.

 

In any case, applying standards of "realism" to a game where human beings can manipulate time, burst into flame, fire laser beams from their eyes or defy gravity - whether due to super powers or magic - seems less than "realistic" in and of itself.

[Lucius]

Re: Picking up and using weapons

 

[Maybe I have "PLAYER CHARACTER" glowing ovrer my head in 6" letters so I'm exempt ]

 

Or maybe "Teammate" or "Ally" or "Friend."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

PALINDROMEDARY glowing in 6" letters

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Picking up and using weapons

 

Or maybe "Teammate" or "Ally" or "Friend."

 

This depends on the game, in large part. How long have they been teammates or allies, and what circumstances thrust them into that relationship? "Friends" need to have some form of compatability, so I don't see a very law & order vigilante classifying himself as "friends" with a looter. Again, however, if all the characters are of the same mentality, and linked together with some background history, it may work just fine.

 

But what of that new character joining the group? Does he or she automatically get classified as "friend/ally/teammate" simply by virtue of meeting the rest of the party? And does that status depend on whether this person we have just encountered is voiced by the GM (classify as "victim/threat") or by a player (classify as "friend/ally/teammate")? At some point in time, these characters must have just met one another - did they fall into "friendship at first sight" due to that glowing PC birthmark they each have, or did they actually have to get to know and trust one another? And how did that happen if one or more of them were inherently not trustworthy?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Picking up and using weapons

 

No, really, let him have the gun, then have it blow up and take his hand with it.

 

He won't do it again.

 

Well, he won't do it more than twice, anyway.

 

Welcome to genre enforecement central. Sit back and exjoy the ride. Try to ignore the occasional BANG.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Picking up and using weapons

 

At some point in time' date=' these characters must have just met one another - did they fall into "friendship at first sight" due to that glowing PC birthmark they each have, or did they actually have to get to know and trust one another? [b']And how did that happen if one or more of them were inherently not trustworthy?[/b]

LOL!

 

Well, in the only Amber game I've gotten to play in, "we" (meaning I) decided to work as a team whe the big badguy started attacking my shadow.That was when I realized the young Amberites who'd come to get my help had been serious about the threat, so I let them out of the dungeon I was keeping them in.

 

Yes, I was playing the campaigns "PC Badguy". For some damn fool reason the other players thought that I was gonna play nice with them because of their "glowing PC birthmarks", as you so aptly put it.

They were a bit irate at the treatment I gave them.

Less so when OOC I noted that they did get special PC treatment... They got to live in a nice cozy dungeon instead of hanging on my castle walls with 16 feet of pointy wood stuck in their bum. Inspirations for my character included Vlad Tepes, Genghis Khan, and Mordred. They got off easy.