Cool SPD chart in export template

[kjamma4]

I was downloading a bunch of prefabs, export templates, and such and ran across a SPD chart that had the column for Phase 12 first followed then by the columns for Phase 1 through Phase 11.

 

I thought that was a pretty cool "modification" since all combat starts in Phase 12.

 

[Mid post edit: It was Killer Shrike. A sample of the template is here:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/HeroDesigner/CombatExportTemplateSamples/DEXChart.htm

 

and you can download that and others here:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/HeroDesigner/KS_HTML_CombatExportTemplates.zip

 

Thanks KS.]

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

No problem, glad you like it....

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

I've taken to running all combats in reverse - starting at 12 and running down to 1 - everyone goes on 12 but there is no post segment 12 recovery immediately after - instead everyone gets a pre segment 12 recovery later on.

 

Doc

[Dust Raven]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

Do those templates work with HDv2 or v3?

[Vondy]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

I've taken to running all combats in reverse - starting at 12 and running down to 1 - everyone goes on 12 but there is no post segment 12 recovery immediately after - instead everyone gets a pre segment 12 recovery later on.

 

Doc

 

For some reason the Europe song "Final Countdown," just popped into my head.

 

That cthuluesque horror aside, its an interesting idea.

 

What was your specific reasoning?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

For some reason the Europe song "Final Countdown," just popped into my head.

 

That cthuluesque horror aside, its an interesting idea.

 

What was your specific reasoning?

 

I hated the first segment of combat where everyone had an excuse to push or throw high END attacks etc knowing that there was a post segment twelve recovery coming straight up.

 

However, I also liked everyone going on the first segment of combat. So I inverted the numbers but after spending so long using the old phases seeing a SPD 6 character with 1,3,5,7,9 and 11 seemed very odd. Instead I decided just to count down rather than count up.

 

That way I kept the familiar phases but had the first round of combat lead into others rather than a recovery. I also found that it shook combat up a bit as the slight difference in SPD 5 characters getting three phases in the first half of a round rather than the last half made their players think a bit harder.

 

It's worked so far.

 

 

Doc

[Rapier]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

I hated the first segment of combat where everyone had an excuse to push or throw high END attacks etc knowing that there was a post segment twelve recovery coming straight up.

 

I can see this being the intersection of two basic ideas waaaaaaay back when Champions was all Hero was.

 

Rule 74) Everybody gets a Recovery at the end of the turn.

Rule 138) Combat starts on Phase 12.

 

Combat starting on Phase 12 was, I'm fairly sure, to ensure that all players (except that whacky SPD 1 guy) get an action at the very beginning of combat. It all sounds good on paper, but I've run into a lot of players that like to meta-game these rules. They push or Haymaker during Phase 12.

 

It also seems kind of a waste to get that first Recovery. I've just spent 3 END and I get a Recovery? Whoop-de-doo!

 

I always start combat on a random phase of d12. Not everyone necessarily gets an attack action, but there is a chance that some guy with a SPD 4 will get to act on Phase 9 before the SPD 6, 30 DEX martial artist.

 

I might almost consider counting down instead of up, but I can see that being confusing. It's not too bad, for the most part, but things like Flashes and Extra Time would take a little more thought and care. How hard was the adjustment in your group?

[Bloodstone]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

I always start combat on a random phase of d12. Not everyone necessarily gets an attack action' date=' but there is a chance that some guy with a SPD 4 will get to act on Phase 9 before the SPD 6, 30 DEX martial artist.[/quote']

 

Hey, I think I was that martial artist once

 

I'm cool with the random start since I like that element of chaos in combat. As is, I don't really like the fact that I KNOW what phases I should and should not Haymaker on just because I know the SPD chart fairly well.

 

But I do question how a random start would work out for someone that had paid points for Lightning Reflexes. Since you are not guaranteed an action in the initial phase of combat, you may have just wasted points on a relative non ability. And lightning reflexes ain't cheep for what it does anyhow.

 

My Zatoichi homage would need a 12 SPD with some kind of funky limitations on it to guarantee that he could get that cut off the draw...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

By not starting on phase 12 you introduce another way that the PC's don't get attack actions at the beginning of combat.

 

The other way is Suprise. Which suprisingly isn't always used as much as it should be.

[Rapier]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

By not starting on phase 12 you introduce another way that the PC's don't get attack actions at the beginning of combat.

 

The other way is Suprise. Which suprisingly isn't always used as much as it should be.

 

Well, part of my thought was that even non-combat time is broken up into Phases. We just don't count it like combat time because it is, generally, a waste of time and effort. My thought was that you never know on which Phase a combat will start. Shrug.

[Rapier]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

Hey, I think I was that martial artist once

 

I'm cool with the random start since I like that element of chaos in combat. As is, I don't really like the fact that I KNOW what phases I should and should not Haymaker on just because I know the SPD chart fairly well.

 

But I do question how a random start would work out for someone that had paid points for Lightning Reflexes. Since you are not guaranteed an action in the initial phase of combat, you may have just wasted points on a relative non ability. And lightning reflexes ain't cheep for what it does anyhow.

 

My Zatoichi homage would need a 12 SPD with some kind of funky limitations on it to guarantee that he could get that cut off the draw...

 

Yes, I do believe you were that martial artist!

 

Lightning Reflexes only increases your DEX for determining where you act in a phase. I don't see how a random phase start for combat affects your Lightning Reflexes...unless I'm missing something (which is possible).

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

I might almost consider counting down instead of up' date=' but I can see that being confusing. It's not too bad, for the most part, but things like Flashes and Extra Time would take a little more thought and care. How hard was the adjustment in your group?[/quote']

 

Well, I have always shouted out the segment number and have a list of people that go in front of me. That way people listen to the numbers and look at their character sheets rather than at the speed chart.

 

It caused no confusion at all except among the cognoscenti who had their tactics honed to the vagaries of SPD 5 versus SPD 6 and SPD 4 and had to learn to adjust a little. Much better than starting on 1 and changing ALL the numbers!

 

I haven't had too much problem with the admin of flashes and extra time as they aren't that prevalent in the games I've played. Maybe I'll introduce some just to see...

 

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

I always start combat on a random phase of d12. Not everyone necessarily gets an attack action' date=' but there is a chance that some guy with a SPD 4 will get to act on Phase 9 before the SPD 6, 30 DEX martial artist. [/quote']

 

 

I like this as a change as well. Rep on its way when I've repped enough other people....

 

 

Doc

[Rapier]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

Since they main title of the thread is about SPD charts in templates:

 

Back in the day we had a SPD chart at the bottom of the sheet and we would bold and underline the phases we had actions on:

 

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

 

 

Even though, these are the new days, I would love to see something like that on an export template!

 

IIRC, there is now some kind of if logic built into template creation, but I haven't dug far enough into it to determine how it works or if its capapble of logic to this extreme.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

I have also been trying to get people to consider their phases rather than the segments on which those phases begin - there is no need to act on 6 just cause that's the number - you can go on 2,5,6,8,11,12 if you want. It is possible to do 1,3,5,7,9,11 if you wanted with SPD 6.

 

Too many times people tell me that the SPD chart constrains them cause they cant go when they want to but when you tell them to delay and go any time they get all funny....

 

 

I'm sure a clever design could remedy that....

 

Doc

[Rapier]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

I have also been trying to get people to consider their phases rather than the segments on which those phases begin - there is no need to act on 6 just cause that's the number - you can go on 2,5,6,8,11,12 if you want. It is possible to do 1,3,5,7,9,11 if you wanted with SPD 6.

 

Too many times people tell me that the SPD chart constrains them cause they cant go when they want to but when you tell them to delay and go any time they get all funny....

 

A couple of weeks ago one of our players held her action on 6 (SPD 6 C), on 8 she held another action. I almost died. YOU LOST AN ACTION! The little power-gamer in my soul, threw up a little in its mouth.

 

Heh.

 

Sometimes I envy the people that don't know the system very well. They seem so unfettered.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

Lightning Reflexes only increases your DEX for determining where you act in a phase. I don't see how a random phase start for combat affects your Lightning Reflexes...unless I'm missing something (which is possible).

 

Sure, let me explain.

 

In wild west settings someone may want to be the "fastest gun in the west". In samurai films and anime, the iaijutsu/batojutsu master is a swordsman that is able to draw his blade and kill an opponent in the blink of an eye. In superheroic stories, some speedsters are so fast that they always get in the first hit.

 

To do this in HERO System, you would buy Fast Draw with the appropriate weapon (assuming fast draw is needed). In addition, you probably buy up your DEX to a high level, but then you also buy Lightning Reflexes to add to it. This pushes you to or beyond the DEX cap for the campaign.

 

So, in our game, if I was playing a fast draw based fighter, I would want to make sure my DEX + Lightning Reflexes was at least 31+, since the DEX Cap is 30. I'd probably go to at least 35 to play it safe though.

 

Anyhow, in this way you WILL always act first because everyone goes on 12 and we go in DEX order. You don't even need an extremely high SPD to pull this concept off, though I think most characters will have a high speed to go along with it.

 

Thus a quick draw based character like Zatoichi, Kenshin, Kibagami Jubei or Billy The Kid becomes possible.

 

If you start on a random phase, the only way you can assure you are the "fastest gun in the west" is to actually have a 12 SPD as well as campaign busting levels of DEX/Lightning Reflexes.

 

Without the 12 SPD, Lightning Reflexes may not do you any good at all since one unlucky die roll could result in you being KTFO before you get an action. This can also be extremely hard on characters that rely on "going first" to put up their non-persistent defenses (such as DCV CSL's), since you can't take Zero Phase actions till you can act on a Phase.

[Rapier]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

Sure, let me explain.

 

In wild west settings someone may want to be the "fastest gun in the west". In samurai films and anime, the iaijutsu/batojutsu master is a swordsman that is able to draw his blade and kill an opponent in the blink of an eye. In superheroic stories, some speedsters are so fast that they always get in the first hit.

 

To do this in HERO System, you would buy Fast Draw with the appropriate weapon (assuming fast draw is needed). In addition, you probably buy up your DEX to a high level, but then you also buy Lightning Reflexes to add to it. This pushes you to or beyond the DEX cap for the campaign.

 

So, in our game, if I was playing a fast draw based fighter, I would want to make sure my DEX + Lightning Reflexes was at least 31+, since the DEX Cap is 30. I'd probably go to at least 35 to play it safe though.

 

Anyhow, in this way you WILL always act first because everyone goes on 12 and we go in DEX order. You don't even need an extremely high SPD to pull this concept off, though I think most characters will have a high speed to go along with it.

 

Thus a quick draw based character like Zatoichi, Kenshin, Kibagami Jubei or Billy The Kid becomes possible.

 

If you start on a random phase, the only way you can assure you are the "fastest gun in the west" is to actually have a 12 SPD as well as campaign busting levels of DEX/Lightning Reflexes.

 

Without the 12 SPD, Lightning Reflexes may not do you any good at all since one unlucky die roll could result in you being KTFO before you get an action. This can also be extremely hard on characters that rely on "going first" to put up their non-persistent defenses (such as DCV CSL's), since you can't take Zero Phase actions till you can act on a Phase.

 

Ahhh. I see where you are going. I've always had duels where the characters hold a couple of actions and then acts (which results in a DEX-off) to see who fires first.

 

Of course, Zatoichi would also have to do enough damage in that very first action to decapitate (etc), which is unlikely in Hero.

 

But I can see where you are coming from.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

I just don't allow a recovery for the initial post-12. It:

A) Doesn't make sense. Combat just started.

Encourages metagamed pushes.

and

C) speeds up combat by denying everyone a recovery they might otherwise have had.

 

Keith "As for the problem of haymakers, smart combatants hold that phase 12 action if they can" Curtis

[kjamma4]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

I just don't allow a recovery for the initial post-12. It:

A) Doesn't make sense. Combat just started.

 

Maybe it is the characters reacting quickly to a combat situation and then pausing to consider their surroundings.

 

Encourages metagamed pushes.

 

Good point. They are basically getting a recovery for only one action. Still, see above.

 

and

C) speeds up combat by denying everyone a recovery they might otherwise have had.

 

Of course if you have players that have metagamed their push, they have already built their recovery into that and will immediately know what their recovery is.

 

Keith "As for the problem of haymakers' date=' smart combatants hold that phase 12 action if they can" Curtis[/quote']

 

The problem with haymakers is that if you declare you are using your action for a haymaker, then you become a target for a "haymaker buster." Maybe a good skill/power would be the ability to "disguise" the fact that you are doing a haymaker. Still no way to remove the metagaming aspect though.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

I have stopped indicating what manouvres the bad guys use until it comes time to throw the dice. If someone wants to use actions analysing bad guys and what they are doing then they get a run down of stuff and with a roll can even get an idea of what manouvre but more often a hint of - he's moving defensively - or - he doesn't seem to care if you hit him, he wants to HURT you.

 

 

Doc

[kjamma4]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

I have stopped indicating what manouvres the bad guys use until it comes time to throw the dice.

 

However, you as the player announce that you are using your action to begin a haymaker and then the GM knows that you are vulnerable. It would be nice if there was a game mechanic to deal with this rather than metagaming.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

Do those templates work with HDv2 or v3?

 

They were designed on v2, but work in v3 as well.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

I just don't allow a recovery for the initial post-12. It:

A) Doesn't make sense. Combat just started.

On the other hand, you are far less likely to be winded at the beggining of an engagement, and the initial ps12 models that well.

 

It also helps protect people from getting completely bushwhacked, which is never any fun.

 

Encourages metagamed pushes.

Pushes are only supposed to be used in dire circumstances, to pull of truly heroic stunts. The GM just says "NO" to casual pushes and it all goes away.

 

and

C) speeds up combat by denying everyone a recovery they might otherwise have had.

 

It speeds up combat because it favors attackers more than defenders. Ill tell you why:

 

END and STUN are both accounting mechanisms that track fatigue and consciousness respectively. Of the two, STUN is far more valuable, because if you are knocked out you are helpless, and further are not able to project attacks of your own (or take any actions whatsoever), while if you are out of END you can still take some actions, can burn STUN for END if you need to, and are not completely helpless -- at the very least you can maintain your DCV.

 

This is generally reflected in the costs as well as END also costs 1/2 as much as STUN.

 

Normally, characters recover both END and STUN in the first PS12 of combat, so while characters that used high END abilities get back their END, the people that suffered damage from those attacks will get back some STUN.

 

For instance assuming a superheroic 1 END per 10 AP and a standard EB, a character that Rapid Fired a 10d6 EB for two shots just spent 10 END. The average STUN damage on that is 35 per shot, the average normal PD is typically around 20-30; we'll call it 25. So assuming both hit, that's 20 total STUN in 10 point increments.

 

Assuming normal RECs between 5 and 10, we'll call it 8 for both attacker and defender, with a PS12 Recovery immediately following the injured party recovers 8 STUN, and the attacker recovers 8 END. The 8 STUN is much more critical.

 

So, by removing that PS12 Recovery you are penalizing the defender more than you are the attacker. This will speed up combats, but it also encourages rather than discourages Alpha Strikes (going all out at the start).

[keithcurtis]

Re: Cool SPD chart in export template

 

On the other hand, you are far less likely to be winded at the beggining of an engagement, and the initial ps12 models that well.

 

It also helps protect people from getting completely bushwhacked, which is never any fun.

You ARE far less winded. You are presumably at full STUN/END.

I would like one side or the other to be bushwahacked occasionally. It happens in stories all the time, and a good GM has planned a contingency.

 

Pushes are only supposed to be used in dire circumstances' date=' to pull of truly heroic stunts. The GM just says "NO" to casual pushes and it all goes away.[/quote']

 

But pushing is much more common in superheroic campaigns (5ERp427 c2). Who's to say the first round of combat is not heroically crucial? It all depends on the plot.

 

It speeds up combat because it favors attackers more than defenders. Ill tell you why:

*snip*

 

Well, yes. You generally speed up combat by emphasizing offense. Emphasizing defense slows it down. The example you gave above is, I felt, rather tailored, but I suppose it demonstrates your point.

My point is that what you just posited for my version of phase 12 happens anyway at the beginning of phase 2 or 3, depending on the average speeds of your campaign. My heroic characters are almost always SPD 4 with a very occasional SPD 3 or 5. Virtually everyone of consequence goes again on ph. 3. So you have the same situation that you had on phase 12, but with my method, everyone is already closer to running out of resources. With the standard method, they all got a little lift.

 

Keith "It has worked fine for us for ten years" Curtis