Doug McCrae Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 Re: The best retcons of all time As Zornwil said, Alan Moore's Miracleman. Best 'It was all a dream' since Alice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 Re: The best retcons of all time If Marvelman/Miracleman counts, then I'd also like to put in a word for Terra Obscura. Admittedly it gets too cutesy at times, but when it's played seriously it's a great updating of some very mediocre golden age third stringers. Very nice nods to DC and Marvel history in there as well, though not in the same class as Astro City. I guess I should throw in Promethea as well, though she's pretty much her own character. Still, the nascent links to Wonder Woman are there, and the many background and foreground tribute characters are greatly entertaining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted November 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 Re: The best retcons of all time I liked Sandman's retcon to 2 age's Sandmen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandi Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 Re: The best retcons of all time The DC Animated Universe doesn't count, does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 Re: The best retcons of all time The DC Animated Universe doesn't count' date=' does it?[/quote'] It probably should. It's not following the continuity (such as it is) of the main DCU. Some great stories in the DCAU as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 Re: The best retcons of all time The DC Animated Universe doesn't count' date=' does it?[/quote'] Its more an entirely separate continuity. Though, if you ignore the stupider and more iron age stuff in the last season or two of JLU, it most definitely counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 Re: The best retcons of all time As Zornwil said' date=' Alan Moore's Miracleman. Best 'It was all a dream' since Alice.[/quote'] Is that the 80's one? I bought the first 6 or 7 issues and never bought anymore. It was just to dark for me. *shrug* I was told a couple of years ago that those issues are rare and haven't been reprinted - if that helps for identifying if that is what you are talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug McCrae Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 Re: The best retcons of all time Is that the 80's one?Yes. It was first published as Marvelman. The threat of legal action from Marvel Comics forced the publisher to change it to Miracleman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 Re: The best retcons of all time Hypertime contains the idea that universes don't just split, they also re-join. A character can wake up one day and remember both that he left his keys on the dresser and that he left them in his coat pocket, and both can be true simultaneously, even though there's still only one set of keys; the two universes "merged" when he picked up his keys off of the dresser. Mars the Lifeless Rock, Mars the pulp wonderland of John Carter, and the many versions of the Mars of the Martian Manhunter are all equally "real", potentially merging into a single present with multiple pasts once you actually visit Mars. The Multiverse construct assumes that a parallel universe, once it diverges at some key point, remains separate. I actually despised hyper-time. It is the worst of all possible conceits. It says "Anything goes... and nothing means anything" since stories can contradict each other and have no last impact. The greatest failure of comics (superhero universes) is NOT too much continuity... but too little. If you want people to care what happens in one comic... it has to have an effect... a LASTING effect... on the whole of the comic universe. Hyper-time basically made any story written utterly meaningless immediately, because it would only have any impact on characters or the world if the whim of another writer allowed it. Hypertime allowed for zero constraints on writers... and that is the worst possible environment for creativity. It allows for slipshod writing, poor research, lack of forethought... general laziness. Even if you don't care about larger "universe" continuity... the concept of hypertime allows for total lack of cohesion and internal logic within even a single title... from issue to issue, page to page, panel to panel... hypertime basically says "I can put whatever I want down... it doesn't have to make sense. Its HYPERTIME!" :sick: I would personally love to poke Mark Waid's eyes out with a hot fork for that whole idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 Re: The best retcons of all time Marvel's The Ultimates series I think it rocks QM Totally agree. This doesn't try to invalidate what has come before (as most retcons do) but instead just says, "Utterly separate... different take on established characters and stories." Best way to do it. Don't pull that 7 Year crap and try to keep the main universe in some kind of "always up to date don't really look at the past too much" stasis. Personally, I think there is great opportunity to have MULTIPLE Marvel and DC universes (that do NOT mix) and allow them all to maintain strong internal continuity... but give writers outlets for various stories. I'd love to see Peter Parker as teenager in the '90s and New Millenium... alongside the orignal line where Peter is pushing 60 and has given up the identity to a son or more likely a daughter, etc., and I'm expected to know 40 years of detailed continuity. I would SO be buying comics like I used to if I could read those kind of stories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 Re: The best retcons of all time The stories that created the term 'retcon'' date=' even if the term itself got, well, 'retconned': Roy Thomas' All-Star Squadron. New stories 'interwoven' into continuity after the fact (hence 'retroactive continuity') without disrupting the original continuity. The First is still the Best.[/quote'] Yes! Absolutely. When Reconn got... well... retconned to mean "act like that old stuff didn't happen"... that was when things went down hill. The original Crisis was a great retconn. It didn't say "those old things didn't happen" It said, "They did happen, but history was wiped out and rewritten... so to those internal to the DCU they didn't happen... but for readers they did." That was a smashing idea... unfortunately lack of editorial control and any real singular vision about the future of the DCU lead to immediate problems... Examples: As good as the individual stories were, saying Wonder Woman was only just appearing made no sense. Hawkworld... was supposed to be a "took place in the past" retelling of Katar Hol coming to Earth, but was told by editors to insert it as "happening now" which screwed everything. Convoluted attempts to explain "Superboy and the Legion" when a simple explanation of "The Legion was inspired by all of the 20th century Heroes... not Superboy" would have made perfect sense and saved us all a lot of problems. Etc., Etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 Re: The best retcons of all time I've really enjoyed the Surpreme Powers miniseries (or is it an ongoing? Well' date=' whichever; I read the first 2 trades). That's a neat re-imagining of the Squadron Supreme (which is itself a parody of the Justice League). If you haven't read it and you like good Iron Age stuff, pick it up.[/quote'] Yup... Another clear example of "reimagining" rather than changing the old to be "fresh and new." Let the old stories stand. Take the character concepts and make a separate story/universe/continuity for them. Great stuff... though I think I've missed the last couple of issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandi Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 Re: The best retcons of all time Its more an entirely separate continuity. True, but then again, so was The Watchmen and people seemed to be fine with counting that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted November 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Re: The best retcons of all time True' date=' but then again, so was The Watchmen and people seemed to be fine with counting that one. [/quote'] It's still different. When Moore wasn't able to use the original characters, he truly ended up with different ones, by virtue of which he escaped any expectations. The Animated Universe features the exact same characters - though I agree it's a separate continuity. That said, it's just my take on those boundaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted November 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Re: The best retcons of all time Is that the 80's one? I bought the first 6 or 7 issues and never bought anymore. It was just to dark for me. *shrug* I was told a couple of years ago that those issues are rare and haven't been reprinted - if that helps for identifying if that is what you are talking about. The Silver Age series of that, by which I mean the issues specifically titled as under that following the first issues you speak of, was rather different and quite interesting. I'd recommend checking that out - you may or may not like it, but it's a rather different emphasis than the first part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted November 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Re: The best retcons of all time Totally agree. This doesn't try to invalidate what has come before (as most retcons do) but instead just says, "Utterly separate... different take on established characters and stories." Best way to do it. Don't pull that 7 Year crap and try to keep the main universe in some kind of "always up to date don't really look at the past too much" stasis. Personally, I think there is great opportunity to have MULTIPLE Marvel and DC universes (that do NOT mix) and allow them all to maintain strong internal continuity... but give writers outlets for various stories. I'd love to see Peter Parker as teenager in the '90s and New Millenium... alongside the orignal line where Peter is pushing 60 and has given up the identity to a son or more likely a daughter, etc., and I'm expected to know 40 years of detailed continuity. I would SO be buying comics like I used to if I could read those kind of stories. Exactly, absolutely, precisely, I can't agree more emphatically! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starblaze Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Re: The best retcons of all time I really liked the JLA Year One miniseries. It had good art and writing and it showed how a superteam should be handled. I particulary liked the part where everyone revealed their S.I.'s to one another because they realized that they couldn't exist as a team if they always had to look over each other's shoulder. I also liked the little bits as well. Aquaman mumbling because he's used to talking underwater. Black Canary's issues with her Mother, particulary when she finds out that she had an affair with the first Starman. Green Lantern getting upset that no one listens to him then finding out that he isn't the team leader at all. The Flash being worried that he might not be human at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted November 25, 2006 Report Share Posted November 25, 2006 Re: The best retcons of all time I really liked the JLA Year One miniseries. It had good art and writing and it showed how a superteam should be handled. I particulary liked the part where everyone revealed their S.I.'s to one another because they realized that they couldn't exist as a team if they always had to look over each other's shoulder. I also liked the little bits as well. Aquaman mumbling because he's used to talking underwater. Black Canary's issues with her Mother, particulary when she finds out that she had an affair with the first Starman. Green Lantern getting upset that no one listens to him then finding out that he isn't the team leader at all. The Flash being worried that he might not be human at all. I too loved that series. I also dound J'onn's mistrust sympathetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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