Too much is still not enough?

[Alcamtar]

When planning a Fantasy Hero campaign, how much prep work do you put in? The last two FH campaigns I ran, I spent many hours designing the world, magic system, limits (CV, DCV, etc), economics, races, etc. -- then found it was just taking too long and started the campaign before I was finished. In both cases we ran through character creation before I had everything 100% worked out, I ended up making on-the-fly allowances and rulings that I later regretted, and both campaigns were canceled after a while.

 

In the last one I told the players what happened and we agreed to restart after I had some more time to put into it. Now after more than a month of careful planning and design, it's time to get the show on the road and I'm STILL not done. This time I planned for unreadiness, so hopefully by the time we need those details I'll have had time to prep them, but still... this is very frustrating.

 

Part of the problem is that I have a definite vision for the campaign, but if I just turn the players loose they'll create characters that are a poor fit. The rules are so wide open the GM needs to have a strong vision and exercise editorial privilege to give it a unified look and feel. (Many games are prepackaged and require no tweaking or even real vision, the GM can cut straight to play and the campaign assembles itself.) I think I spend at least half my planning time here.

 

The other half of the problem may be that I extensively customize the game. I'm used to designing worlds and cosmologies and stuff, but Hero allows a much greater degree of flexibility, and I also have to design the rules: magic system, races, packages, martial arts. There are also many options that are simply not available in other games like sectional armor or variant rules. Reading books like FH or TUS makes it worse because they present so many options that I never even considered, but find it really fits my concept. So then I'm back updating everything. It's incredibly cool to be able to customize everything, and that's really the whole point -- but it never seems to end. And after weeks of tweaking, just when I think I'm done I realize I still have to prep for actual play: plan adventures, create NPCs, etc.

 

I'm getting kind of burned out before play even begins. So this is sort of a plea for advice on how to keep my sanity and make this whole mess practical. How do YOU do it? To break this down into a set of specific questions:

 

1. How much time do you put into prepping a campaign? Not a one-off adventure but a long-term open-ended campaign?

 

2. What aspects do you plan in advance, and what do you define as-needed during play? How has this worked, and has it come back and bit you later?

 

3. Do you extensively customize the game, or do you mostly just use the material from Fantasy Hero, Grimoire, etc (or maybe from someone's website) and go with it?

 

4. Are you very careful about setting and genre fidelity, or do you pretty much allow players to design whatever characters they want?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Too much is still not enough?

 

1. How much time do you put into prepping a campaign? Not a one-off adventure but a long-term open-ended campaign?

 

2. What aspects do you plan in advance, and what do you define as-needed during play? How has this worked, and has it come back and bit you later?

 

3. Do you extensively customize the game, or do you mostly just use the material from Fantasy Hero, Grimoire, etc (or maybe from someone's website) and go with it?

 

4. Are you very careful about setting and genre fidelity, or do you pretty much allow players to design whatever characters they want?

 

WHAT? You want me to give up ALL of my cool secrets?!? Oh sonuva... Oh. All right. If it'll make you HAPPY. Sheesh.

 

1. Very little. I get a concept, I flesh it out, I build a 'jumping off point' and go from there. I allow the players to point & push in various directions they'd like to go, and then build forward. Cooperative story telling is the order of the day; I can be quoted as having said, on numerous occassions, "Well, sure, I have a ton of stuff ready, but really, this is about what you guys are doing. There's only one core event that can't be changed. The rest is kind of up for grabs." (emphasis added).

 

2. I plan NPCs in advance; because I'm so dialogue driven and character driven, not having a good stable of NPCs ready to be called in ("Okay! NPC 447819495234356-AA99UIR, you're up! Today you're going to be ... a baker? That sounds boring." The newly statted baker smiles and says "Dude, you don't my little bake stand is going to last beyond about fifteen minutes, do you?") I also plan "core" plot elements. When you get a manifesto of player actions that you requested, you better prep in advance.

 

I think holistically. So this prep feeds that prep feeds some other prep, and so on. Prep begets prep. It all blends for me.

 

3. Yes, and no. I'm a fiddler and the more comfortable I get with the system the more I fiddle with it. I'm working on building my own magic system, and that HAS slowed me down considerably, but it isn't a deal breaker. I'm content to flow with what's easy and test the waters as I go. I do set limits in advance, that has been tough because the game is so open ended.

 

4. Genre & Fidelity are my wheel house; if the concept don't fit, the concept don't stay. So this is a HARD STOP for me. If you've built a gun runner in a campaign of heroes, you'd better be pullin' some Han Solo stuff out about your redemption story and why this is a good fit - I might even agree, but all characters must be well thought & developed before hitting live play.

 

Does that help?

[Curufea]

Re: Too much is still not enough?

 

For my Western Shores-

 

1) Theoretically - a lot. But I was actually developing the setting and not planning on running a game in it, it was friends that convinced me to GM a game there. So I spent time on world setting, but very little time on "as a campaign"

2) Props and the odd monster. NPCs I generally never stat out and usually just have names and a brief description.

3) Yes, extensively customise.

4) So far I've found that if the players have some knowledge of the setting, any character they come up with works. It does mean I also get more things to add to the world built specifically around their character backgrounds too. Occasionally I will have parts of characters modified, but that's about it.

[War Cry]

Re: Too much is still not enough?

 

1)In the past, maybe a month or two. I would plot out the major antogonist and his goals and minions, the other major players on the scene, the major kingdoms and such, then let it all ride from there. Now? I've become a stickler for detail. I'm currently putting together a FH campaign with a heavy Norse/Viking theme and am at about 250 pages of documents saved to my PC - still have another 50-100 to go. I can kick 'em quick, but my imagination has dried up. All out of ideas right now.

 

2)I only plan for the really big things - people and places of great power or great danger. Most NPC's happen on the fly, with the exception of hunteds. Those are probably the most thoroughly done.

 

3)Nope. I beg, borrow and steal from dozens of other sources. Pick and choose what I like and what I will allow, twiddle and tweak to get a fit, a run with it.

 

4)Depends on the player. I realize it may not seem fair on the surface, but the players I trust the most get more leeway than those I've seen abuse the rules or hand a munchkin build to me. If something has been established as not existing in the current game, I won't bend on it unless I get a really convincing argument. I try to take into account what my players like and expect out of game when I run though. So far, this one has been a non-issue for the most part.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Too much is still not enough?

 

When planning a Fantasy Hero campaign' date=' how much prep work do you put in? [/quote']

The Campaign Setting lots, the PC Knowledge not so much, the Rules, eh I wing it, but listen to the PCs.

I spent many hours designing the world' date=' magic system, economics, races, etc. -- then found it was just taking too long and started the campaign before I was finished. [/quote']

You prepackaged does relieve some of the burden, but you could always use an established setting and say only the RULES SYSTEM is HERO.

In both cases we ran through character creation before I had everything 100% worked out' date=' I ended up making on-the-fly allowances and rulings that I later regretted, and both campaigns were canceled after a while.[/quote']

Ask he Players to create PCs that fill specific roles. Front Line Fighter, Mage, Healer, Thief, Scientist, engineer, etc...

Now after more than a month of careful planning and design' date=' it's time to get the show on the road and I'm STILL not done. [/quote']

If the PC knowledge Handout is available then your ready to. No plot survives contact with the PCs.

This time I planned for unreadiness' date=' so hopefully by the time we need those details I'll have had time to prep them, but still... this is very frustrating.[/quote']

Start with a strong Theme and try to maintain it.

Part of the problem is that I have a definite vision for the campaign' date=' but if I just turn the players loose they'll create characters that are a poor fit.[/quote']

Character Creation Guideline should include Cultural and Regional limitations.

The rules are so wide open the GM needs to have a strong vision and exercise editorial privilege to give it a unified look and feel. (Many games are prepackaged and require no tweaking or even real vision' date=' the GM can cut straight to play and the campaign assembles itself.) [/quote']

Limit the PCs knowledge of what is around and only inform hem after they have researched and studies ancient tomes to find that witch they seek.

The other half of the problem may be that I extensively customize the game. I'm used to designing worlds and cosmologies and stuff' date=' but Hero allows a much greater degree of flexibility, and I also have to design the rules: magic system, races, packages, martial arts. [/quote']

Start using the basic rules and add and remove ones that do not suit your game.

There are also many options that are simply not available in other games like sectional armor or variant rules.

Decide if you will use it or not.

Reading books like FH or TUS makes it worse because they present so many options that I never even considered' date=' but find it really fits my concept. [/quote']

I do not think its worse. I think its helpful and the PCs do not know it exists. Their players do, but not their PCs make it clear to them.

So then I'm back updating everything. It's incredibly cool to be able to customize everything' date=' and that's really the whole point -- but it never seems to end. And after weeks of tweaking, just when I think I'm done I realize I still have to prep for actual play: plan adventures, create NPCs, etc.[/quote'] Before or aft err the game session begins discuss the Rules you wish to change and let everyone be involved. Afterwords you can inform them of your decision.

I'm getting kind of burned out before play even begins. So this is sort of a plea for advice on how to keep my sanity and make this whole mess practical. How do YOU do it? To break this down into a set of specific questions:

Campaign Creation burnout is common, but you can always ask someone else to GM so you can recharge your batteries.

1. How much time do you put into prepping a campaign? Not a one-off adventure but a long-term open-ended campaign?

I spend about 4 to 6 hours every 2 weeks between games working on it. Sometimes I end up throwing i out completely because the PCs decide to do something else.

2. What aspects do you plan in advance' date=' and what do you define as-needed during play? How has this worked, and has it come back and bit you later?[/quote']

Rules changes have been the worst, but when it comes to storyline continuity I... AM... A... GOD!!!

3. Do you extensively customize the game' date=' or do you mostly just use the material from Fantasy Hero, Grimoire, etc (or maybe from some one's website) and go with it?[/quote']

Yep, use what I like and tell he PCs if they need to know.

4. Are you very careful about setting and genre fidelity' date=' or do you pretty much allow players to design whatever characters they want?[/quote']

I require the Players to create characters suited to the genre/setting and to fill certain roles (Warrior, Wizard, Healer, Rogue, etc...)

 

 

Cheers

 

QM

[Dale A. Ward]

Re: Too much is still not enough?

 

Part of the problem is that I have a definite vision for the campaign' date=' but if I just turn the players loose they'll create characters that are a poor fit.[/quote']

I had to address this issue before proceeding with the questions, because I've found this to be a very common problem. There are a couple of different ways to handle the problem of non-viable characters.

 

One is, of course, to make sure your players know enough about the setting to build characters that would thrive there. Give them a page or two of intimate knowledge that natives of the area would know... names and descriptions of PC races; known local enemies, friends, and neutrals; local leaders in various fields; etc. Johnn Four has some excellent articles on campaign creation on his Roleplaying Tips.com website, including several on what information to provide to your players.

 

Another method that I've recently become rather fond of is to give your players an easy way to correct their "poor fit". This can be accomplished by either holding back a portion of the starting character points until they know what they're going to need, or (my favorite idea) allow a complete remake... a one-time-only, start-from-scratch, rebuild of their character. I usually restrict this option to "must be used before the character receives its first experience award"... which, in my games, usually happens about the third game session.

 

Now, on to the questions.

 

1. How much time do you put into prepping a campaign? Not a one-off adventure but a long-term open-ended campaign?

This is a very subjective question, as you're not really concerned with the amount of time spent, but the quality of the results.

 

One of my longest-running and most successful campaigns took me about two days of prep work, most of which was spent very carefully transferring a 6"x8" map onto two 3'x2' hex map sheets. The rest was deciding what tables to use for random encounter generation.

 

On the other hand, I've had games that I carefully planned for months fall flat before the second session.

 

I hate to say it, but the amount of time spent planning is not a major consideration. There are far too many variables.

 

2. What aspects do you plan in advance, and what do you define as-needed during play? How has this worked, and has it come back and bit you later?

After careful thought, I've decided that the only things that really have to be planned in advance are geography and history. Everything else can wait until, perhaps, a week or two before it's needed.

 

Honestly, if you plan too far ahead, the odds become increasingly greater that your players are going to do something that will totally negate the whole thing.

 

Now, this is not to say that the planning is wasted. You may have to make a few small changes... a new coat of paint, file off the serial numbers, that sort of thing, and you can use that stuff somewhere down the line. My #1 rule for planning is "never throw anything away".

 

And, yes, overplanning has bitten me hard... several times and in some very awkward places.

 

3. Do you extensively customize the game, or do you mostly just use the material from Fantasy Hero, Grimoire, etc (or maybe from someone's website) and go with it?

I can honestly state that I have never used any prepackaged settings or modules in any of my own campaigns. On the few occasions when I've GMed tournaments at cons, I've used the material I was given... and, usually, hated every minute of it.

 

I have, however, used a lot of such items as idea seeds.

 

Basicly, my campaign setting exists as a fully actualized world and ecology only within the confines of my own mind. If the gods grant me immortality and an endless supply of paper and ink, I may... eventually... get it all down in a readable format.

 

But, don't hold yer breath.

 

4. Are you very careful about setting and genre fidelity, or do you pretty much allow players to design whatever characters they want?

For the most part, yes... I try to keep everything running in one genre at a time.

 

Although, I did have a silly period in my early gaming life. The look of wicked glee on the face of a dwarf as he peeks out of the turret of an M1 Abrams is priceless. Nuf sed!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Too much is still not enough?

 

Dale really touched on what I had to say already. Reading through your post it sounds like mostly you're having a problem conveying the idea of your campaign to the players in a way that makes you feel they fit.

 

I'd actually perhaps put a little less time into the game, putting down generalized notes until they need to be fleshed out and going from there.

 

Also, I'd include your players in the world building aspect. Ask them what they want to play - because quite frankly it's their world too. If what they want absolutely can't fit let them know - before character creation itself.

 

Have your players give you brief outlines and ideas of their characters, and the places they come from. Including the Players in the creation process assures they have a vested interest in the game itself and likely things won't peter out and die on you. Or become some unmanageable it has to be scrapped.

 

Get your players to make up a few things and suddenly you're just editing it to fit better and giving back info.

[Dale A. Ward]

Re: Too much is still not enough?

 

Amazing... even though I've actually done it, the idea of the players contributing to the campaign setting totally went over my head. I gotta rep that.

 

 

Or, I will after I've spread some around. ~sigh~

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Too much is still not enough?

 

I'm having flashes of this problem with working on converting (loosely) Eberron to HERO System. Fortunately, AlHazred has already created the Dragonmarks (though there's new Aberrant marks in the Dragonmarked book that I'll need to whip up).

 

My other stumbling block is divine magic, though the more I think about it, the more likely I am to simply forget about it. Religion is important to the world, but since the existance of gods is unproven, I think the setting can exist without divine magic (which saves me from having to create an entire magic subsystem).

 

The things I'm thinking I need to make sure I have in place (since the history and geography is already intact) is:

Racial Packages (this may well take the most time ...)

Cultural/National Packages

Campaign-Specific Perks and Organizational Package Deals (Dragonmarked Houses and Guilds, the various spy organizations like the Dark Lanterns and Royal Eyes of Aundair, etc)

Other archetypes (artificer, for example)

 

Edit:

Oh yeah ... and priestly packages.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Too much is still not enough?

 

Lot's of great advice here. I'd say the three main principles of campaign preparation are:

 

1. Have a central idea or theme to the campaign.

2. Let (make) the players do some of the work.

3. Relax. Don't worry about it too much. Be flexible.

 

More details of those three principles:

 

1. This can be thought of in part as the "subgenre". What will be the tone of the campaign? What, in a sentence or two is the world like? What will be the goal/motivation of the PCs? And don't be afraid to let this theme change over time. Ex: The players might start out simply trying to gain wealth and power, but eventually they discover that there are evil things going on in the world and decide to become true heroes.

 

My FH campaign can be simply summed up with: (a) standard quasi-historical European fantasy, with the standard races (elves, dwarves, etc.), no gunpowder, etc. ( the PCs start out in the "civilized" area of the world, where things are more-or-less "normal" - there are plenty of adventures to be had and monsters to slay - but the farther you go from this "center," the wierder things get: people, cultures, monsters, maybe even the laws of nature © each village (town, city) has its own native style of magic that it teaches to its people (those who care to learn it), so the type of magic you use will depend on where you're from, it's theorietically possible that you could move to another village and study for a long time and eventually be a master of two different styles.

 

2. Spend as little effort as possible designing things that won't benefit every player. Like the individual race packages. If only one player wants to be a dwarf, let him design the dwarf package! If only one player wants to be a wizard, let him design the magic system. How will you feel if you write up a bunch of spells and then none of the players take them?

 

In my campaign, I let the players design their own magic systems (part c of the "theme"). They can come up with their own description of the village/city where they're from, and the style of magic it uses (if they use magic themselves). I then put their home town on the map somwhere appropriate. This may sound like I'm inviting munchkinism, but I make it clear to my players that I'm not. They can't just take any powers they want. The magic has to be in a "system". They need to think about specific questions: What are the principles and themes of the particular style? Why does that village use that particular type of magic? What you they use it for? If it's really powerful, why didn't that village conquer its neighboring villages? The whole thing has to make sense. In the real world necessity is the mother of invention. In this fantasy world, necessity is the mother of magic. People who live in wooden houses shouldn't throw fireballs.

 

3. Whenever I come across something that I think is especially neat, I'll incorporate it into my FH world. Or if something just occurs to me. I've taken inspiration from many sources, even Kurt Vonnegut!

[Frenchman]

Re: Too much is still not enough?

 

1. How much time do you put into prepping a campaign? Not a one-off adventure but a long-term open-ended campaign?

 

As much as possible. If I am creating a new world (or fleshing out one that was, for some reason, not well-described) I spend a lot of time creating important people and places for my setting, as well as the magic system(s) and packages. I don't really mind if something doesn't get chosen by a PC, because it will get used.

Also - contingencies, contingencies, contingencies - I don't plan out every step of the whole campaign, but I plan out a rough outline and try to stay 2-3 weeks ahead of where the game it. So I create an 'adventure tree' with key events that lead from one to another. This way, I only plan out the key events before the campaign, and so far I haven't had the players do anything so unexpected that I couldn't use the same tree. When things do get a bit out of hand, I delay the main plot by presenting a side quest or two, which my players are always eager for (I reward them richly), while I regain my 2-3 week lead. I try to have at least 5-6 side quests ready to go when I begin a campaign, and make new ones as they come to me.

 

2. What aspects do you plan in advance, and what do you define as-needed during play? How has this worked, and has it come back and bit you later?

 

Ooh - I allready said this, but to recap/answer the second part of the question:

I plan out the major events in the plot (Someone being assassinated, characters need to break a seige, etc...) and several of the more likely contingencies which follow. This ends up being a tree or web of interconnected plot points. This makes it difficult for me to not be prepared for what the PCs do - they thwart the assassination? Then the king lives on for a while longer (at least to the next plot point) and rewards the PCs for their aid. They aid the assassin? Then they get chased across the country at the side of their new friend who leads them in a different storyline possibility. Each plot point usually has at least 2-6 outcomes which I plan for, and it hasn't happened yet that something I didn't plan for at least a little bit happened.

I also plan out the setting as much as I can - even if I can't get it all down on paper, I want to at least have it in my head. I want to be able to answer any question a player can ask me about the world - even if I don't tell them because its not PC knowledge, I want the answer for myself.

The only problems I have had are not keeping far enough ahead of the plot, so that I have to come up with several sessions in a row on the fly (I'm not very good at that, and it burns me out), and finding out that something I had planned for (usually a relatively minor thing that has a cascade effect on a big thing) is too wierd/complicated to work well or for the players to swallow. That happened in my last game - I swiped the Trollkin from the Iron Kingdoms and made them a major political power, but my players had trouble grasping that they weren't evil child-eating monsters. This was compounded by them being at war with a race of frog-fish-men over the draining of a wetland area.

 

3. Do you extensively customize the game, or do you mostly just use the material from Fantasy Hero, Grimoire, etc (or maybe from someone's website) and go with it?

 

I almost always make things too complicated, and then realize that they are before scaling them back in response. Simplicity is a good thing, and so I find that, especially for my magic systems, I end up altering the system so that I can use spells from other sources, rather than coming up with a list of spells for my system. I have tried having the players come up with their own spells, but then wizards tend to have no more than 6 spells (Attack, AOE Attack, Defense, TK, Flight, and a broad Summon). If they have a list to choose from, especially if that list is in a book (I like the AD&D spell compendiums for this) they tend to have more interesting, more varied, and just plain more spells.

 

4. Are you very careful about setting and genre fidelity, or do you pretty much allow players to design whatever characters they want?

 

I tend to have a very clear view of the world when I sit down with the players to create characters - I first describe the world and the tone of the campaign (I like making powerpoints or slideshows for this, they are great) and then ask them for character ideas. Since they have (usually) been hearing about the setting for the past few monthes at least, it doesn't usually take long for the group to settle on party roles and general concepts. If someone has a concept that absolutly doesn't fit into the setting (like the guy who always plays Drow - even on worlds that don't have them... or when someone wants to play a samurai or ninja in a western-style setting) then I try to rework that concept with them so that it has a similar feel, but a more appropriate flavor - ninja has become inquisitor, gunslinger became a blademaster who liked wands...it usually works out.

Then as the players do the character sheet stuff, I go and desparately tweak my world and plot so that they all have a place in it. Then we do backgrounds and I approve/edit character sheets.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Too much is still not enough?

 

I do a lot of work, but on the other hand I'm not adverse to winging things as needed either.

 

What I try to do is make generic material and then flavor it for my current need, and vice versa when I do something specific I run with it, but I also take a pass at generecizing it so that it is reusable later.

 

The material and packages I've provided at http://www.killershrike.com/fantasyhero are intended to be useful to other GM's as well and help them bypass some of the necessary leg work.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Too much is still not enough?

 

I've been building my current world off and on for about a year and half.

 

I do a Lot of customization and always run my own setting.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Too much is still not enough?

 

Some quick general advice:

 

Decide how magic works

Make all player magic conform to the basic structure of magic. This should greatly reduce munchkinism.

 

Steal

Take ideas from other games, fiction, and history. You don't have to make up a whole lot of detail if you just decide that Pei Lung is nearly identical with Song era China.

 

Make a set of sample PCs

Let your players either choose one as their own character, or at least give them an idea of what sort of character they should be making. If all your sample PCs are courtiers and spies, and one of the players keeps making big game hunters or cannibal tribesmen, you should probably ditch the player.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Too much is still not enough?

 

Make a set of sample PCs

Let your players either choose one as their own character, or at least give them an idea of what sort of character they should be making. If all your sample PCs are courtiers and spies, and one of the players keeps making big game hunters or cannibal tribesmen, you should probably ditch the player.

An excellent suggestion! It also gives the players an idea of the expected power levels and may help to prevent "inflation" of combat abilities. If the sample characters all have around 5-7 CV, the players won't have to feel like they need 9-11 CV just to be competitive, for example.