Mind link to a vehicle

[buzz]

I have a player in a new Star HERO campaign who bought a mecha as a perk (i.e., a vehicle) for his PC. He bought a Mind Link with the mecha in order to control it remotely.

 

Mind Link , Machine class of minds, One Specific Mind, No LOS Needed (15 Active Points); Only With Others Who Have Mind Link (-1), Does Not Provide Mental Awareness (-¼)

 

In the last session, he used this to have the mech attack an opponent while he was Entangled.

 

I didn't really notice (or remember) this on his sheet until it came up in-game. I want to say that this is wrong, as the mech is built as a vehicle and has no INT. I'd think what he needs to do is built it as a follower AI.

 

Thoughts?

[Lucius]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

I have a player in a new Star HERO campaign who bought a mecha as a perk (i.e., a vehicle) for his PC. He bought a Mind Link with the mecha in order to control it remotely.

 

Mind Link , Machine class of minds, One Specific Mind, No LOS Needed (15 Active Points); Only With Others Who Have Mind Link (-1), Does Not Provide Mental Awareness (-¼)

 

In the last session, he used this to have the mech attack an opponent while he was Entangled.

 

I didn't really notice (or remember) this on his sheet until it came up in-game. I want to say that this is wrong, as the mech is built as a vehicle and has no INT. I'd think what he needs to do is built it as a follower AI.

 

Thoughts?

 

I think possibly you mean as an Automaton?

 

In any case, what he's using the "Mind Link" mechanic for is to translate mental impulses into radio (I presume) waves that are recieved by the vehicle which then translates them into electrical impulses which guide the machine's actions. While this is obviously sophisticated tech, I'm not sure it requires an INT score on the part of the vehicle, and I am quite sure it does not require anything with an EGO score. As far as the vehicle's end of this process, it's not really any different from a manual radio remote control.

 

Lucius Alexander

And a remote control palindromedary

[Robyn]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

In the last session, he used this to have the mech attack an opponent while he was Entangled.

 

I didn't really notice (or remember) this on his sheet until it came up in-game. I want to say that this is wrong, as the mech is built as a vehicle and has no INT. I'd think what he needs to do is built it as a follower AI.

 

Thoughts?

 

If you let him build it as a follower AI, won't it cost even less?

 

Entangles that block Mental powers (what is the SFX of his Mindlink?) would put a stop to it.

[Robyn]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

Second thoughts: I'm uneasy with the general concept of a character who can be caught outside of his powered armor, but then is still able to use the offensive capabilities of that suit.

 

You might want to reduce the value of whatever Focus limitations are on the mecha's offensive capabilities (the defensive powers obviously don't apply to the character unless he's inside it, though they still do exist and protect the mecha), and refund his points for that Mindlink power; just call his Mindlink the SFX.

[Lucius]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

I don't think it's a focus, as such; it was bought as a vehicle, wasn't it?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Buying a palindromedary as a vehicle.

[Shaft]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

 

Mind Link , Machine class of minds, One Specific Mind, No LOS Needed (15 Active Points); Only With Others Who Have Mind Link (-1), Does Not Provide Mental Awareness (-¼)

 

You might want to add limited range (range of radio signal) -1/4, flashed as radio/hearing group -1/4, and restrainable by means other than grabs/entangles (jamming) -1/4.

[Wolfgar]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

What Shaft said.

 

It shouldn't really be any different than being able to voice command the mecha in question.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

I think possibly you mean as an Automaton?

 

In any case, what he's using the "Mind Link" mechanic for is to translate mental impulses into radio (I presume) waves that are recieved by the vehicle which then translates them into electrical impulses which guide the machine's actions. While this is obviously sophisticated tech, I'm not sure it requires an INT score on the part of the vehicle, and I am quite sure it does not require anything with an EGO score. As far as the vehicle's end of this process, it's not really any different from a manual radio remote control.

 

Lucius Alexander

And a remote control palindromedary

 

The thing that bothers me about this is that Mind Link as a HERO mechanic is not a substitute for direct manual control; it's merely a method of communication. You can't see through the eyes or control the muscles of someone with whom you have a Mind Link. It's like Wolfgar's parallel with voice command, above - you have to have some element of the mech's control system that can interpret the commands you give and act on them.

 

If the mech in buzz's example had a Computer which has programs for controlling the mech, and its pilot has a Mind Link with that, I as GM would have no problem with the scenario he describes. However, if the pilot actually wants to remotely control the mech, i.e. the equivalent of handling its cockpit control interfaces at a distance, using his own DEX and Skills, I think I would be looking for something more along the lines of cyberkinetic Telekinesis.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

Glancing quickly at my book, I would submit that Buzz is correct - this isn't built correctly, because as LL notes, Mind Link allows Communication. Mind CONTROL, on the other hand, would be the way I would simulate "remote control" of a vehicle. However, many people get hung up (as I did) on the EGO value - in this case, I would submit that because the EGO value is 0, the onus is on the DM to make the call as to how to build this particular variation.

 

We're having a similar problem with a PC who wants to 'Jack In' to datanets in my Sci-Fi campaign; we've used Mind Link to establish the connection, but that's all it does - it allows him to 'talk' to the machine, and then he has to make whatever appropriate skill roll he wants - Computers, Security, and so on.

 

I don't know if that helps in this case, but the argument would be that if you want to allow the cheaper version - Mind Link - that seems to be the same version that's in The Ultimate Vehicle. Reading it, though, I think my issue is the mechanics of use, scale, the ability to view what's happening - I think there are elements that are uncovered by that build.

 

I'll have to think on this.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

BTW for Mind Control of a Computer without EGO the GM can allow MC for Machine-class minds to work vs. the Computer's INT score. This is a common application for "Cyberkinesis" Mental Powers.

 

The UNTIL Superpowers Database has examples and guidelines for both the Mental Powers and Telekinesis approach to remote control, under "Cyberkinesis Powers."

[buzz]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

Thanks for the input guys; I'll check out the USPD.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

ERG-9

ERG-9 Suit

 

 

 

Green Knight

Neurally Operated Aerocycle (Horse) Mark IX

[buzz]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

KS, I guess I'd have the same question about the PCs you posted. Mind Link requires an EGO attack and a target with an EGO score. How can you have a Mind Link to a vehicle, or vice-versa?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

How can I? Because I dont let slavish attention to the letter of the rules get in the way of modeling a concept when the pros of an approach outweigh the cons.

 

"cybernetic" or "brain" interfaces with vehicles is a concept found in fiction, and is used to explain an otherwise interfaceless interaction between a sentient pilot (used in a loose sense) and a machine, either directly or remotely, which is not subject to normal interference.

 

Such interfaces sometimes also include the ability to transfer sensory data, and in either case commands are generally given at speed of thought.

 

There are other ways, but the most direct way to accomplish this in the HERO System IMO is Mind Link. It mostly fits. The part that doesnt fit (the establishment of the Mind Link) is in my opinion in place as a check to prevent multiple PC's from getting linked up at will to gain a combat or plot advantage and is not really that important in the case where you have a pilot having a link to a vehicle and both the character and the vehicle have paid for the Mind Link to represent the connection between them, so I just ignore that technicality and soldier on.

 

YMMV

[buzz]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

How can I? Because I dont let slavish attention to the letter of the rules get in the way of modeling a concept when the pros of an approach outweigh the cons.

Understood. I'm just trying to understand a "letter of the law" interpretation as my starting point.

 

Some additional info:

 

My player did buy a mech computer as a Follower, and the computer does have the reciprocal Mind Link. The computer is not an AI, however, so it has no EGO. Also, its programming is limited to: "Pilot Mecha From A to B," "Report when fuel is low," and "Report on Mineral Scan" (it's a mining/loader mech).

 

So, I'm still curious whether, by the book, this lets him contact the mech computer and have the mech attack his opponent.

 

I'll post the builds...

[buzz]

The PC

 

Skippy Arkenstone

 

Val Char Cost

8 STR -2

15 DEX 15

8 CON -4

10 BODY 0

15 INT 5

12 EGO 4

10 PRE 0

11 COM 1

2 PD 0

2 ED 0

3 SPD 5

4 REC 0

16 END 0

18 STUN 0

 

4" RUN -4

2" SWIM 0

1 1/2" LEAP 0

 

Characteristics Cost: 20

 

 

Cost Power

 

Nebulon Abilities

10 +2 with DCV

5 Life Support (Immunity: Alcohol; Longevity: 200 Years; Sleeping: Character only has to sleep 8 hours per week)

Cybernetics

7 1) Mind Link , Machine class of minds, One Specific Mind, No LOS Needed (15 Active Points); Only With Others Who Have Mind Link (-1), Does Not Provide Mental Awareness (-1/4)

 

Powers Cost: 22

 

 

Cost Skill

3 Acting 11-

3 Armorsmith 12-

3 Combat Piloting 12-

3 Computer Programming 12-

3 Cryptography 12-

3 Deduction 12-

3 Demolitions 12-

3 Electronics 12-

3 Jack of All Trades

2 1) PS: Astrominer (3 Active Points) 12-

1 2) PS: Brewer (2 Active Points) 11-

1 3) PS: Intelligence Agent (2 Active Points) 11-

1 4) PS: Operate Displace Drive (2 Active Points) 11-

1 5) PS: Starship Engineering (2 Active Points) 11-

0 6) PS: Merchant Engineer 8-

3 Mechanics 12-

5 Language (idiomatic; literate)

3 Scientist

2 1) SS: Astrogeology 12- (3 Active Points)

2 2) SS: Chemistry 12- (3 Active Points)

1 3) SS: Hyperdimensional Physics 11- (2 Active Points)

2 4) SS: Mechanical Engineering 12- (3 Active Points)

2 5) SS: Minerology 12- (3 Active Points)

1 6) SS: Starship Engineering 11- (2 Active Points)

3 Security Systems 12-

3 Systems Operation 12-

3 Teamwork 12-

3 Trading 11-

3 Weaponsmith (Energy Weapons, Missiles & Rockets) 12-

Everyman Skills

0 1) AK: Nebulos 8-

0 2) Climbing 8-

0 3) Concealment 8-

0 4) KS: Nebulon Mecha 8-

0 5) KS: Nebulon History 8-

0 6) Language (idiomatic; literate) (5 Active Points)

0 7) Paramedics 8-

0 8) Persuasion 8-

0 9) Shadowing 8-

0 10) Stealth 8-

0 11) TF: Personal Use Spacecraft

Skills Cost: 69

 

 

Cost Perk

25 Vehicles & Bases

10 Follower

1 Contact 8-

1 Fringe Benefit: Starship License

1 Custom Perk

Perks Cost: 38

 

Total Character Cost: 149

 

Pts. Disadvantage

0 Normal Characteristic Maxima

10 Social Limitation: Agent for Optimal Intelligence, Subject to Orders (Occasionally, Major)

10 Hunted: Destron 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, Watching)

20 Hunted: Optimal Intelligence 11- (Mo Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)

5 Physical Limitation: Small, half human size (Infrequently, Slightly Impairing)

10 Psychological Limitation: Loyal to Optimal Nebulon Alliance (Uncommon, Strong)

5 Psychological Limitation: Bad Attitude (Uncommon, Moderate)

15 Social Limitation: Minority Species (Frequently, Major)

Disadvantage Points: 75

 

Base Points: 75

Experience Required: 0

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

[buzz]

The Mech Computer

 

Val Char Cost

15 DEX 15

10 INT 0

3 SPD 5

 

Characteristics Cost: 20

 

Cost Power

 

7 Mind Link , One Specific Mind, No LOS Needed (15 Active Points); Only With Others Who Have Mind Link (-1), Does Not Provide Mental Awareness (-1/4)

 

Powers Cost: 7

 

Cost Skill

2 PS: Astrominer 11-

3 Combat Piloting 12-

3 Systems Operation 11-

1 Language: Nebulonize (basic conversation)

Skills Cost: 9

 

Cost Talent

3 Absolute Time Sense

3 Bump Of Direction

5 Eidetic Memory

1 Program: Pilot Mecha From A to B

1 Program: Report when fuel is low

1 Program: Report on Mineral Scan

Talents Cost: 14

 

Total Character Cost: 50

Base Points: 50

Experience Required: 0

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

[buzz]

The Mech

 

Val Char Cost

50 STR 15

15 DEX 15

15 BODY 4

3 SPD 5

 

6" RUN 0

0" SWIM -2

0" LEAP 0

 

Characteristics Cost: 66

 

Cost Power

13 Tunneling 1" through 6 DEF material (20 Active Points); Costs Endurance (-1/2)

7 Clinging (normal STR) (10 Active Points); Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2)

7 Mineral Detector: Detect A Class Of Things 16- (Radio Group), Discriminatory, Telescopic: +10 (22 Active Points); OAF Bulky (-1 1/2), Costs Endurance (-1/2)

7 Flight 10" (20 Active Points); Fuel Dependent (fuel is Very Common; must refuel Once per 6 Hours; -3/4), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Freefall/Zero G Only; -1/2)

7 Endurance Reserve (60 END, 10 REC) (16 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), Only Powers Electricial Devices Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (-1/4)

3 Endurance Reserve (20 END, 5 REC) (7 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), Only Powers Electricial Devices Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (-1/4)

5 Life Support (Safe Environment: Zero Gravity; Safe in High Radiation; Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum)

9 Life Support (Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat; Self-Contained Breathing) (14 Active Points); Costs Endurance (-1/2)

5 Extra Limbs (4)

2 Infrared Perception (Sight Group) (5 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1)

2 Ultraviolet Perception (Sight Group) (5 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1)

5 High Range Radio Perception (Radio Group) (12 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), Sense Affected As More Than One Sense Sight (-1/2)

9 Radar (Radio Group), Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees), Telescopic: +4 (22 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), Costs Endurance (-1/2)

10 Multipurpose Mining Tool: Multipower, 30-point reserve, (30 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Switch Slots; -1/2); all slots OAF Bulky (-1 1/2)

1u 1) Magnetic Cargo Lifters: +20 STR, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (30 Active Points); Only to move metal (-1 1/2), OAF Bulky (-1 1/2)

1u 2) Laser: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (30 Active Points); OAF Bulky (-1 1/2)

1u 3) Drill: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6 (2d6 w/STR), Penetrating (x2; +1) (30 Active Points); OAF Bulky (-1 1/2)

5 Second Mining Tool: Custom Power (5 Active Points)

Powers Cost: 99

 

Total Character Cost: 165

 

Pts. Disadvantage

5 Distinctive Features: Optimal Insignia (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)

10 Hunted: Destron 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, Watching)

20 Hunted: Optimal Intelligence 11- (Mo Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)

5 Physical Limitation: Needs extra maintenance/parts uncommon in some areas (Infrequently, Slightly Impairing)

Disadvantage Points: 40

 

Base Points: 125

Experience Required: 0

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

KS' date=' I guess I'd have the same question about the PCs you posted. Mind Link requires an EGO attack and a target with an EGO score. How can you have a Mind Link to a vehicle, or vice-versa?[/quote']

 

Strictly speaking, the target of the Mind Link has to be completely willing to accept it, and therefore is at ECV 0. I would say it's safe to assume that a computer programmed to serve the person with the Mind Link would accept that link automatically, and with no Ego score to calculate ECV from, its value would automatically be 0.

 

Understood. I'm just trying to understand a "letter of the law" interpretation as my starting point.

 

Some additional info:

 

My player did buy a mech computer as a Follower, and the computer does have the reciprocal Mind Link. The computer is not an AI, however, so it has no EGO. Also, its programming is limited to: "Pilot Mecha From A to B," "Report when fuel is low," and "Report on Mineral Scan" (it's a mining/loader mech).

 

So, I'm still curious whether, by the book, this lets him contact the mech computer and have the mech attack his opponent.

 

I'll post the builds...

 

Well, based on my understanding of the rules I see no problem with the pilot contacting the computer, and commanding it to execute any of the abovementioned programs. Since the computer doesn't have any type of combat program, I would have ruled that the pilot could not initiate that complex a response from it based on this construct. Add appropriate Programs, though, and he should be good to go.

 

However, there's an example of a Remote Control System "to communicate with and guide missiles, drones, probes, and the like" on p. 27 (sidebar) of The Ultimate Vehicle, built as a Mind Link. The entry makes no mention of systems onboard required for this to work, other than "a special receiver."

 

Given that this is an official writeup, it might be worth asking Steve Long for a ruling on how this is supposed to work.

[buzz]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

Thanks, LL!

[Vanguard]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

Buzz,

 

Everyone else has pretty much already answered your questions here but I'll toss in my two cp if you don't mind.

 

Going over the character sheet, there's nothing in there that would allow the character to use his Mind Link with the Computer/Mecha to have it attack a target.

 

He could use the Mind Link to initiate the computer to pilot the mecha to other locations but there no other programs in there for having it attack a target.

 

For that, I think he'd need the appropriate programs in the computer and then he could use the Mind Link to have the computer initiate the correct program.

[Shaft]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

Understood. I'm just trying to understand a "letter of the law" interpretation as my starting point.

 

Some additional info:

 

My player did buy a mech computer as a Follower, and the computer does have the reciprocal Mind Link. The computer is not an AI, however, so it has no EGO. Also, its programming is limited to: "Pilot Mecha From A to B," "Report when fuel is low," and "Report on Mineral Scan" (it's a mining/loader mech).

 

So, I'm still curious whether, by the book, this lets him contact the mech computer and have the mech attack his opponent.

 

I'll post the builds...

 

A few thoughts (that are my opinion on this, not fact):

 

Mind Link is the power used to simulate a secure medium, whether that is an encrypted radio signal or a subliminal telepathic "wavelength". It only relays communications, not commands.

 

However, a device that is programmed to obey commands can accept communications that are commands. The sender does not need to buy Mind Control to do that. The receiving device needs a way to interpret that command.

 

I can use VPN software to access machines at my office from my home. I do not (to my knowledge) possess Mind Control. I do possess a computer that relays my communications (which are in fact commands) through the encrypted VPN tunnel (a very crude mindlink with Focus & restrainable) to the devices at my office. Those devices are not AIs. They are computers, built with some programs that can be simulated with the mechanisms in HERO. Those computers are programmed to obey me (It has a Physical limitation: must obey commands of authorised users that relay proper commands). The mecha doesn't need AI to determine targets, but it does need the appropriate skillset.

 

If your PC's mech is programmed to recognise the voice commands that the PC gives, can hear them and can act on them, then what your player did was legit. However, without a way to "authenticate" himself, the player can't be sure that someone else won't override those commands, hence mindlink simulates a good security mechanism.

 

As for rules lawyering, in strictest terms, the character should have to make an attack rolll, but the power should be built with "Based on CON" to reflect that it is a "physical" medium as opposed to a psionic one. Given that the mecha is inclined to listen for the PCs voice commands, it's not unreasonable to assume that the Mecha's DCV is 0 for this purpose. Given how easy it is to hit a DCV 0 target, it would fair to rule that you only ask for a roll when transmission conditions are adverse (ECM storms, background noise, etc...) and cut down on the unneccesary rolls. Of course that is up to you...

 

If the player wanted to control an enemy's mecha, that is where mind control is needed. The mind control can be bought as a overide/hacking program. Mind control can also be used to counter enemy control attempts.

 

Mental Illusions can be used to fool a mecha into thinking that a hostile is in fact an authorised pilot. This can simulate a false identidy or cracking a password.

[Shaft]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

One last question that may or may not be relevant: when the guy was restrained, was he vocalising to the mech, or was he using a communicator (technically a focus that he might not have been able to use. Not usable if it's a handset, may be usable if it was a voice activated throat mike/earpiece)?

[Robyn]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

Those computers are programmed to obey me (It has a Physical limitation: must obey commands of authorised users that relay proper commands).

 

"Error: ATTACK not a recognized command."

[buzz]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

If your PC's mech is programmed to recognise the voice commands that the PC gives...

Honestly, I didn't get the impression that the Mind Link he bought was designed ot replicate voice commands. I was under the impression from the actual use that it was literally a mental link with the mech computer.