Mind link to a vehicle

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

Honestly' date=' I didn't get the impression that the Mind Link he bought was designed ot replicate voice commands. I was under the impression from the actual use that it was literally a mental link with the mech computer.[/quote']

 

Doesn't matter. Voice command, mental command, my point earlier was, when someone gives a complex command to a machine, either the user has to control it directly (Mind Control) or - as has been pointed out - the machine has to have the on board capability of interpreting and executing a command.

 

So the SFX of the mind link only matter insomuch as how they can be stopped - in other words, if it's a Voice Command, it should take Incantations so the user can be Silenced. If it requires him typing, that's Gestures. If it's just -poof- connected, well, that's Mind Link without any lims on it, and now you just need the machine to be able to do what he said.

 

How much is an attack AI worth?

[buzz]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

Doesn't matter. Voice command' date=' mental command, my point earlier was, when someone gives a complex command to a machine, either the user has to control it directly (Mind Control) or - as has been pointed out - the machine has to have the on board capability of interpreting and executing a command.[/quote']

Oh, I get that. I was responding to Shaft, who was assuming it was voice command.

 

There's actually a lot about this guy's PC that's off. I'll need to work on that.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

And I agree completely with the original post - while I might draw fire from my players, according to our own group's common sense, it isn't plausible for the machine to "attack" because you have Mind Link. An attack is an extremely complex action, even for a human - much less for a machine. "Target the man in red" isn't all that simple - but we're going from 'game functional' to 'reality theory' so it's your call.

 

As noted, and to be clear, I think that if he wants to be able to make the thing attack people or carry out some other complex command, he needs Mind Control (see: James Bond, Die Another Day? He sits in the back of his car with a remote control & a screen - it's a Mind Control, the car is completely under his command, and it requires Concentration (full), Gestures (To control the vehicle), and the focus (Remote Control).

 

So that's my take on it. Mind linky? Not so much.

[Robyn]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

I have a player in a new Star HERO campaign who bought a mecha as a perk (i.e.' date=' a vehicle) for his PC. He bought a Mind Link with the mecha in order to control it remotely.[/quote']

 

In the last session, he used this to have the mech attack an opponent while he was Entangled.

 

Wouldn't be this fellow, would it?

[Shaft]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

Wouldn't be this fellow' date=' would it?[/quote']

 

Hmm, the guy is also from Illinois... I think we have a match.

 

(If it is Moquif, you might want to direct him here. The forum has given some good interpretations for the requirements).

[Shaft]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

Oh, I get that. I was responding to Shaft, who was assuming it was voice command.

 

There's actually a lot about this guy's PC that's off. I'll need to work on that.

 

I assumed voice commands since I didn't know if he had Cyberware. With Cyberware, the special effects for the interface are different, but the requirement for the mecha's ability to interpret instructions remains.

[Barton]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

Hmm, the guy is also from Illinois... I think we have a match.

 

(If it is Moquif, you might want to direct him here. The forum has given some good interpretations for the requirements).

 

You do have a match. I am a player in this game also.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

I ran the question of the remote-control from TUV past Steve Long, and got this response: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51910

[Alverant]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

So what I'm reading is that to do what I wanted, I would need additional programs. What about the Combat Piloting skill? I bought that to cover any combat situation I might have forgotten. The concept was he could control his mech mentally via the cybernetic interface. It could be blocked by radio jammers or distance. Because both man and machine had the link, I didn't see a need to reestablish contact. Since controlling a robot mentally is taxing, I didn't do it until after Skippy was entangled and gave no new directions after he was knocked out. We can't think of everything so I played it as the concept directed.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

That depends on GM ruling. For me, were it my game, i don't think I would allow a 100% command interface without more points - again, for me, this is Mind Control, not Mind Link. A car cannot drive itself - the technology is crazy advanced just to get it to PARK itself, and that still requires operator assistance (changing gears, pressing the break for it, and so on) - all the car does is STEER, to give you an idea of how far out this technology is.

 

On the flip side, with a camera (or applicable viewing device/cybernetics) you could 'see' a missile's flight path and guide it, roughly, since again you're manipulating the fins, not having it make an attack roll (it's an AOE +EX anyway, targeting a hex).

 

I realize, as at times happens, I'm outside the line of conventional thinking, however, if there are two ways to do something, and one is more expensive, you must use the more expensive version. I submit that controlling your mech at a distance is Mind Control.

[Shaft]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

My thinking is this:

 

The mech should have a Combat piloting skill to pilot itself and the appropriate WFs and Combat skills. You may even want to give it an INT rating, though that may not be needed (the INT might represent slightly more sophisticated programming- it's not quite an AI, as it has no EGO). The bonus is that the Mech's skills can also compliment your own, making you more effective when you are "in" it (the same way a base's lab can compliment your skill when your are in it) and give you a bonus to your rolls.

 

A car doesn't have an INT rating, so it has no way of interpreting commands.

 

A modern day PC has no INT rating- but it has the skills to execute commands (reboot, open this program, fire the gun connected to my USB port, etc...).

 

A sophisticated "knowbot" system with an INT rating can make sophisiticated decisions ("subfile inidicates that a grenade is a bad choice when the target is next to my pilot; conculsion: optimal choice of weapon is the sniping laser...") based on input that it can take that is outside the scope of the immediate command.

 

A full AI has an INT and EGO, so he can decide not to follow your instruction, or decide to initiate an action based on its input without a command.

 

I suspect that your mech would not defend you on its own initiative, but that it has a sophisticated combat computer that can make decisions. Therefore, I recommend an INT score and skills.

[buzz]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

A small world! Yup, moquif is Skippy's player, and Barton is in our group, too.

 

The general feeling seems to be that the Mind Link allows for communication with the mech computer. The computer, not being an AI, can only execute programs. Ergo, it needs more programs in order to allow the mech to attack or defend, and even then it's going to be pretty basic functionality.

 

Barton also pointed out that Skippy would need TF: Mecha. I had assumed this was not the case since moquif paid the points, but 5ER actually doesn't say that the Vehicle Perk gives you TF with the vehicle you paid for.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

Barton also pointed out that Skippy would need TF: Mecha. I had assumed this was not the case since moquif paid the points' date=' but 5ER actually doesn't say that the Vehicle Perk gives you TF with the vehicle you paid for.[/quote']

 

If this was for a superheroic game, there's precedent to say that requiring TF could be waived, since supers buying weapons with points automatically gives them effective Weapon Familiarity with those specific weapons.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

What he said, but I was going to look it up and see if I could find a page reference.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

Having read the germane elements of the text, it would seem this is a grandfathering - I can't find anything, either in regards to heroic or superheroic, where the character gains the TF for the purchase, any more than he gains a WF for buying a weapon (although I recall having read that part somewhere, which makes this all the more confounding). If any one has more than I do, please post it, as I've got:

 

Nothin'.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

Having read the germane elements of the text, it would seem this is a grandfathering - I can't find anything, either in regards to heroic or superheroic, where the character gains the TF for the purchase, any more than he gains a WF for buying a weapon (although I recall having read that part somewhere, which makes this all the more confounding). If any one has more than I do, please post it, as I've got:

 

Nothin'.

 

On the Weapon Familiarity front, I did find this under the description of the Weapon Familiarity Skill on FREd p. 53: "Weapon Familiarity represents the knowledge of how to use specific weapons. It is used primarily in Heroic campaigns; characters in Superheroic campaigns, who pay Character Points for their weapons, automatically know how to use them (a character never has to buy a Skill to use weapons or equipment he bought with Character Points, unless some Limitation requires him to)." I don't have 5ER, so I can't be certain that the same info appears there; if so it's probably on 5ER p. 75, according to zornwil's page correspondence table.

 

Unfortunately I wasn't able to find anything relevant to this issue for Transport Familiarity in either the rulebook or the FAQ.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

AHA. Yeah, that's it, and it says the same thing, by which I would argue that if you purchase a vehicle with CP, you would have the TF automatically, since it's 'equipment.' Thank you LL, that's precisely what I was looking for.

 

To me, the issue here is one of consistency - you spend points, you're familiar with the thing you spent points on. While TF doesn't address, WF does. So I would rule in favor of the character here. If a vehicle is purchased with cash, the PC needs to buy the TF. If it's a point buy, the TF comes free.

 

IMO, YMMV, TYVM, HAND.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

I also believe the build needs more Programs to do other 'interesting' things, like attack. However, don't forget to get a Power skill so you can attempt things you haven't thought of ahead of time...

[buzz]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

Asked and answered by LL and Mr. Long. Summary: you don't have to buy TF for a vehicle if you paid for the vehicle with points. Makes sense to me.

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

Mind link to a vehicle that does not have an auto-pilot or self controlling factor would avail you not. A vehicle would have to have a computer in it not a n AI with the proper programs to operate all the systems you desire to do from remote. If its an automation sfx vehicle then it already has INT and mind link would allow you to give simple but specific orders for it to follow exactly.

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

Just playing devil advocate here but just because you bought a vehicle does not make you familar with it. Many characters ie scientist/ gadgeteers build vehicles for the heroes to use and are not familiar with driving it in combat or any other routine operation. some sfx are that the character didn't even make the vehicle but had it designed or found it and even if you built it at one point in your life you would have had too take time to familiarize yourself with it ie buying TF.

 

It could be argued you should make a character pay points for TF unless he needed it for something more important to complete his concept like another more pressing skill then it could be Allowed to be assumed he had TF but just because you wanted to save 1 point for the hell of it no.

 

LOL actually thats what most of these up tight GM mizers would argue if we the players were the one who had posted this thread;) Me I would not really care honestly it just would depend on the game and the genre other than that what's 1 pt.

[buzz]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

Well, TUV specifically says you get a free TF for any vehicle you pay points for, so... NYAHH!!!

 

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

TUV also says a normal tank has a 18 def which means you need over 6.4 Kilotons to do it damage yeah right do what makes since.

[Vanguard]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

That depends on GM ruling. For me, were it my game, i don't think I would allow a 100% command interface without more points - again, for me, this is Mind Control, not Mind Link. A car cannot drive itself - the technology is crazy advanced just to get it to PARK itself, and that still requires operator assistance (changing gears, pressing the break for it, and so on) - all the car does is STEER, to give you an idea of how far out this technology is.

 

On the flip side, with a camera (or applicable viewing device/cybernetics) you could 'see' a missile's flight path and guide it, roughly, since again you're manipulating the fins, not having it make an attack roll (it's an AOE +EX anyway, targeting a hex).

 

I realize, as at times happens, I'm outside the line of conventional thinking, however, if there are two ways to do something, and one is more expensive, you must use the more expensive version. I submit that controlling your mech at a distance is Mind Control.

 

Actually, that's what the Programs are for. You can purchase programs for your onboard computer for a fighter that says "Pilot craft from point A to B". As long as the craft has the Combat Pilot skill (or heck, just the TF) and the program it can do it for 2 (or 4 points).

 

What the mind link would do is just give the character an "encrypted, always on, link" to his vehicle. As long as said vehicle had an onboard computer with not only the proper skills and programs, it would be able to do what the character wanted it to do. Provided the GM agrees with the commands.

 

In the above example, as long as the vehicle combo had "attack target A" and the WF, the character should be able to command it to attack.

 

However, I can see where you're coming from. But, using mind control to do something like this would be way more expensive then I think it's worth. The plus side is you could probably give the vehicle a Vunerabilty to the controlers mind control as well as appropriate Disads for the computer. I just think it would be easier to do it with Mind Link/Programs/skills.

 

YMMV

[Vanguard]

Re: Mind link to a vehicle

 

Asked and answered by LL and Mr. Long. Summary: you don't have to buy TF for a vehicle if you paid for the vehicle with points. Makes sense to me.

 

YOU don't have to have the TF to use a vehicle you paid for in points. However, the vehicle isn't you and cannot pilot itself without either an onboard computer or the proper skills.