Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

[Kirby]

I posed this question to Steve:

 

Are characters able to target a hex when that hex is in the air? My understanding that you have to hit something solid (ground, wall, person, etc.) for the hex to be hit (and then the Area of Effect or Explosion takes place).

 

Situation: Character A is escaping and starts to fly away. Character B wants to stop A, but is having a hard time hitting him, so B fires an Energy Blast with the Explosion advantage at the hex A is in. Is that legal?

 

If this is legal, is it listed in FREd or another book?

 

 

He gave me this response:

 

See 5ER 375, top right, under "Area Of Effect Attack."

 

Since I have FREd and do not have 5ER, would someone tell me what this says?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

It is legal. However it might go against common sense depending on the sfx.

 

It's like a quarterback in football throwing a long pass. He isn't aiming at the receiver. He's aiming at where he thinks the reciever will be in the time it takes the ball to get there.

 

If you wan't to simulate this you could require an additional perception roll to judge the distances correctly (this is where absolute range sense would be handy).

[Kirby]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

It is legal. However it might go against common sense depending on the sfx.

 

It's like a quarterback in football throwing a long pass. He isn't aiming at the receiver. He's aiming at where he thinks the reciever will be in the time it takes the ball to get there.

Hmm, that explanation doesn't make since with the power+advantage. The quarterback is still expecting the football to make contact with the intended target.

 

Without being able to see what was written, to me the analogy is someone throwing a grenade and expecting it to explode at a certain point in mid-air during the toss.

 

If this is an official rule, as opposed to being a GM's option, it has "abuse" written all over it, much like "costs END only to activate."

[gojira]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

Without being able to see what was written' date=' to me the analogy is someone throwing a grenade and expecting it to explode at a certain point in mid-air during the toss.[/quote']

 

Which is doable. They had anti-aircraft shells in WWII that would explode when they got close to a plane.

 

I kinda see your point though. It should require some sort of advantage to work this way. Certain SFX should be ruled "no way" by the GM with out spending extra points.

 

But how often are you targeting fliers anyway?

[Kirby]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

Which is doable. They had anti-aircraft shells in WWII that would explode when they got close to a plane.

AA shells aren't the same things as grenades. When I last left the Army (and still to my knowledge) there are no "proximity grenades." The AA shells would generally be set for certain altitudes. Projectiles that have proximity detonators have a technology that energy blasts lack.

 

I kinda see your point though. It should require some sort of advantage to work this way. Certain SFX should be ruled "no way" by the GM with out spending extra points.

 

But how often are you targeting fliers anyway?

It's happening in my game right now. I thought I'd check the official ruling before I made my decision.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

Why wouldn't it be legal to target a point in space rather than a point on the ground (or a point in the water for that matter?)

 

Ok, sure, some SFX it may not make sense for. But some it does:

 

Consider you fire a torpedo to detonate 1600 yards out, regardless of what's there.

Consider a low air burst nuclear detonation; because that's what many nukes are set to do.

 

Now go back to the grenade. You know how long it is from pulling the pin to detonation, you can guess how long it might take for it to get from you to the flying group of whatevers hovering above you. So you pull, count, and throw. Maybe it'd be more fitting if the GM decided that instance needed some extra modifiers to make sure you counted right. Or something.

 

Also consider a Superhero, who wants his Blasto Beams to go off at a certain point in space - so he aims for that point.

 

The rules are non-restrictive. If you feel it's not possible go ahead an impose a restriction.

 

Everything in the system has Abuse written all over it.

[gojira]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

Ok' date=' sure, some SFX it may not make sense for. But some it does[/quote']

 

I think this is the crux. For a grenade, you pull the pin, toss it and it lands somewhere, then goes off. For many explosions, the ground gives something for the explosion to detonate against, thereby providing a trigger and a range finder.

 

Whereas the air does no such thing. Do you really think you can accurately time a grenade toss just by counting the seconds? Maybe with a ton of practice, but I don't think generally this is the case.

 

 

Maybe if you told us the SFX or why this case was bugging you, we could help out. The official rule is clear, but if we are dealing with a Focus of some sort I think a GM ruling might be in order.

[Robyn]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

Everything in the system has Abuse written all over it.

 

Hrm . . . sigged

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

I think this is the crux. For a grenade, you pull the pin, toss it and it lands somewhere, then goes off. For many explosions, the ground gives something for the explosion to detonate against, thereby providing a trigger and a range finder.

 

Whereas the air does no such thing. Do you really think you can accurately time a grenade toss just by counting the seconds? Maybe with a ton of practice, but I don't think generally this is the case.

 

 

Maybe if you told us the SFX or why this case was bugging you, we could help out. The official rule is clear, but if we are dealing with a Focus of some sort I think a GM ruling might be in order.

 

I agree completely. Without knowing the SFX, I can't really say it's an abuse of the system, or misuse of the system, to target a hex.

 

I mean certainly your standard dropped from an airplane bomb is designed to detonate on impact - without an impact it doesn't explode. It'd make no sense to target an airial hex with such a device.

[Kirby]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

Why wouldn't it be legal to target a point in space rather than a point on the ground (or a point in the water for that matter?)

As stated above' date=' what is there for it to [i']contact[/i]? The ground and the water are surfaces for the blast to contact. What is there to contact in the air? If it were molecules, then the blast wouldn't get past the fingertips.

 

Ok, sure, some SFX it may not make sense for. But some it does:

 

Consider you fire a torpedo to detonate 1600 yards out, regardless of what's there.

Consider a low air burst nuclear detonation; because that's what many nukes are set to do.

I don't know why you brought this up since it's just a variation on a theme I've already mentioned. These require technology to explode at a certain distance. In fact, they'd require a Trigger.

 

Now go back to the grenade. You know how long it is from pulling the pin to detonation' date=' you can guess how long it might take for it to get from you to the flying group of whatevers hovering above you. So you pull, count, and throw. Maybe it'd be more fitting if the GM decided that instance needed some extra modifiers to make sure you counted right. Or something.[/quote']I'm guessing you've never thrown grenades before. You can't "time them" to explode at a specific point in the air. Plus, you wouldn't want to, considering if it's that close, you'll generally be in range.

 

Also, for launched grenades, such as with the M203 grenade launcher, it doesn't explode until it hits its target. Sorry.

 

Also consider a Superhero' date=' who wants his Blasto Beams to go off at a certain point in space - so he aims for that point.[/quote']And the beam keeps going. You can't make a bullet stop in mid-air simply because you're aiming for air.

 

The rules are non-restrictive. If you feel it's not possible go ahead an impose a restriction.

The rules are restrictive. That's why Energy Blasts can't go around buildings or lift people into the air. Not without advantages and limitations (which, by definition are restrictive).

 

Everything in the system has Abuse written all over it.

That's a poorly thought out excuse. Could you show me an abuse for Damage Resistance? What about International Passport? Can things be abused? Yes. That generally falls under advantages (such as "costs END only to activate") and limitations (such as Charges, 16), though. As to my point though, I said it had "abuse" written all over it. Force Field doesn't have abuse "written all over it" nor does Longevity.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

As stated above' date=' what is there for it to [i']contact[/i]? The ground and the water are surfaces for the blast to contact. What is there to contact in the air? If it were molecules, then the blast wouldn't get past the fingertips.

 

You seem to be assuming the only possible SFX for an explosion or area effect attack is a grenade. Many other SFX are possible. Perhaps you simply need to say "The default is that an explosion can do that. Your grenade's SFX dictate a deviation from that default." rather than decide that the possibility many other SFX would allow for an explosion in mid-air makes this a reasonable approach. [My Fireball spell gets to the range I select, then explodes, for example.]

 

Is it abusive that AE and Explosions can target hexes in the air, or is Flight abusive if it prevents attacks that affect an area from targetting the character?

[Kirby]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

You seem to be assuming....

I believe we've had problems with you making assumptions on what I'm stating by taking information that's not there. I mentioned more than grenades' date=' but the grenade was [u']one[/u] example.

 

Is it abusive that AE and Explosions can target hexes in the air' date=' or is Flight abusive if it prevents attacks that affect an area from targetting the character?[/quote']The former, in my opinion. Flight doesn't prevent anyone from targeting the charcter. Like running, swimming, swinging, leaping, or teleport, flight can be used to increase distance (and range penalties), but it doesn't simply prevent a character from being targeted.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

As stated above' date=' what is there for it to [i']contact[/i]? The ground and the water are surfaces for the blast to contact. What is there to contact in the air? If it were molecules, then the blast wouldn't get past the fingertips.

 

I don't know why you brought this up since it's just a variation on a theme I've already mentioned. These require technology to explode at a certain distance. In fact, they'd require a Trigger.

 

No Trigger (in the rules sense) needed. At all. Now, a triggered detonation would be an SFX Reason to have a bomb go off at a certain point. But mechaincally I just need to say "I target this hex here in mid air."

 

I'm guessing you've never thrown grenades before. You can't "time them" to explode at a specific point in the air. Plus' date=' you wouldn't want to, considering if it's [i']that[/i] close, you'll generally be in range.

 

Also, for launched grenades, such as with the M203 grenade launcher, it doesn't explode until it hits its target. Sorry.

 

And the beam keeps going. You can't make a bullet stop in mid-air simply because you're aiming for air.

 

You keep using Technology in your examples as to why the ruling is bad.

 

Remember: HERO doesn't imply SFX.

 

If you run into a whole buncha SFX (Grenades, bombs, bullets) that targeting a mid-air hex makes no sense for - then just disallow it.

 

Not a very hard concept now is it?

 

But we could probably come up with just as many SFX that it would be appropriate to target a mid-air hex with. Hugh brought up a fantasy spell Fireball. Another could be a psionic concussion blast. Or maybe a Superhero's Negabeam Explosion. None of those require a contact point to be set off.

 

We could go 1 for 1 on SFX that are and aren't appropriate to target mid-air with.

 

The ruling is: A player can target a mid-air hex.

 

A no point in the Hero System does it say "AND YOU CAN NEVER CHANGE THAT RULE BWAHAHA!!" In fact - it does the opposite.

 

So, honestly, just impose the restriction on the SFX you see fit to impose it on and move on with life. There's no abuse going on here.

[Kirby]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

Maybe if you told us the SFX or why this case was bugging you' date=' we could help out. The official rule is clear, but if we are dealing with a Focus of some sort I think a GM ruling might be in order.[/quote']I haven't seen the official rule, but by what's been implied, it seems -to me- as poorly thought out as the official stance on characters being permanently large, shrunk, or with density increase.

 

The sfx of the energy blast is lightning. To me, what the character is doing seems to be having his EB explode by proximity, which seems more appropriate with the Trigger advantage. I have yet to see anything to counter this view.

[Kirby]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

No Trigger (in the rules sense) needed. At all. Now' date=' a triggered detonation would be an SFX Reason to have a bomb go off at a certain point.[/quote']The part you were quoting was in reference to a bomb, so your first sentence (which referencing the bomb) contradicts your second sentence.

 

But mechaincally I just need to say "I target this hex here in mid air."

This is what I find abusive with no substance to support it.

 

You keep using Technology in your examples as to why the ruling is bad.

Because I was responding to examples using technology. Also, real world technology is much easier to relate to than fantasy concepts.

 

Not a very hard concept now is it?

You don't need to become a condescending jerk just because I don't agree with your opinion. (Much like your "deal" comment from your initial post - at least then you had the decency then to edit and delete it.)

 

Hugh brought up a fantasy spell Fireball. Another could be a psionic concussion blast. Or maybe a Superhero's Negabeam Explosion.

While the fireball may have merit, generally they hit something before they explode. The psionic concussion blast would be useless hitting dead air space since it needs to contact a brain - everything else is unaffected, unlike say a fireball.

 

So' date=' honestly, just impose the restriction on the SFX you see fit to impose it on and move on with life.[/quote']I have already done it bone.

 

There's no abuse going on here.

This contradicts your very own "Everything in the system has Abuse written all over it."

 

Since you apparently can't respond to a differing opinion without getting snippity, I hope you'll understand why I won't be responding to you any more on this thread with your current attitude. Perhaps you could look at Hyper-Man and Gojira for ways to be civil while offering suggestions?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

Going for a quick off the top of the headSFX:

 

A character who's multipower is some sort of Omega beam like abilities, who still has control over his energy after it leaves him. He could set explosions in midair anytime he wanted.

 

Of a air controller that causes the air to rush out as an explosive effect (or alternately to rush in as he made a vacuum).

 

A magic spell that detonated at a caster determined range.

 

 

Lots of SFX for targeting an empty hex in the air.

[Kirby]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

If you wan't to simulate this you could require an additional perception roll to judge the distances correctly (this is where absolute range sense would be handy).

This seems the best suggestion offered should I opt to allow this in the future. Would you modify the roll with standard range modifiers?

 

In my campaign, the PC is 11" away from the NPC, which is a -4 Range modifier. Would you think it to be fair to give a -4 to the Perception roll and for every 1 it's missed by, that's 1" away from the target or +1 DCV for the hex? (I'm thinking 1" away from the target would be more appropriate.)

 

In this fight, the hex would now be at DCV 7 (3 +4 for range). If the PC missed his perception by one and missed the hex by one, would you find it reasonable that the "center" of the explosion would then be 2" away from where the PC wanted it to be?

 

(Back to your football analogy, the QB thinks the player will catch the ball on the 10 yard line, though he'd really be on the 11, he's aiming for the 10, doesn't throw properly and the ball is "catchable"/arm level on the 9. The only difference being the football won't explode.)

[Kirby]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

A character who's multipower is some sort of Omega beam like abilities' date=' who still has control over his energy after it leaves him.[/quote']While this reminds me of Darkseid, wouldn't you say he has an advantage (such as Continuous) on his Omega beams as opposed to just having a regular EB? (His Omega beams can go around corners and chase people, after all.)

 

Of a air controller that causes the air to rush out as an explosive effect (or alternately to rush in as he made a vacuum).

Would you allow him to target a distant hex with no penalty other than range? If "yes," then -to me- that's saying the controller can just as easily determine how far away 10' is as he can 500' -and that I don't see happening (without absolute range sense).

 

A magic spell that detonated at a caster determined range.

This sounds just like Trigger which states "This Advantage allows the character to set up a power which will activate when a given circumstance occurs. Some examples of Trigger include...reaching a certain altitude." [Emphasis Mine] (FREd, p.174) I don't think the PC (or NPC) should get that option for free. Either they should have a trigger or, like Hyper-Man suggested, there should be perception rolls included.

[Shaft]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

The sfx of the energy blast is lightning. To me, what the character is doing seems to be having his EB explode by proximity, which seems more appropriate with the Trigger advantage. I have yet to see anything to counter this view.

 

I think I see where the perceived source of the disagreement is. If you don't mind, perhaps I can clarify some of the terminology as I see it:

 

A trigger's function (the advantage, not a real life trigger) is to activate a power as a 0 phase action when a particular precondition is defined, set and met. Examples: if I get shot at, and my force wall has the trigger advantage, I can set it to come up as a 0 phase action, and I don't have to abort to it (allowing me to use my action to run, or counter attack, or half-move and attack... whatever). Another example which might be more relevant to this discussion is that I can also buy the trigger advantage on an explosive RKA focus and make it go off when someone steps on it. When that happens, it will explode as a 0 phase action. I can still manually trigger the RKA without someone stepping on it if the special effects allow it, but it is a half phase attack action).

 

If you are defining the trigger on area effect as going off when the area effect attack hits the floating hex, that is not accurate from a mechanics point of view. The character would be able to target & hit that floating hex with a normal 1/2 phase action. Trigger lets him do it as a 0 phase action, (with the right condition, such as when a target flies through it). Either way, the character can get an explosive to go off in that floating hex: the trigger advantage plays no part in that.

 

I respectfully submit* that you might be envisioning a timing mechanism of some sort as a "trigger" and associating the advantage with the same name as the timing mechanism. An airburst grenade has a timer (or what I believe you are calling a "trigger") that goes off when it senses that it has climbed x feet up in distance. That timing mechanism is included as a feature of the special effects of the Area effect EB or RKA at no cost.

 

I get the impression that you are envisioning the "trigger mechanism" included in the special effects for an explosive attack that hits a ground- or surface-based hex as an impact or motion sensor or some other way of detecting the projectile's sudden change in momentum. Of course when the explosive travels through the air, you see that there is no impact to set off the bomb (or more precisely, to halt it's momentum). However, I think most of the others in this discussion, myself included, is suggesting that the "trigger mechanism" is a special effect, so whether it's a timer or impact sensor, it's already included.

 

If I'm incorrect in assessing your interpretation, please feel free to correct me.

 

*yes- it's a polite way of saying that "I'm assuming".

[Robyn]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

If you are defining the trigger on area effect as going off when the area effect attack hits the floating hex' date=' that is not accurate from a mechanics point of view.[/quote']

 

It also falls prey to the same criticism of "When does the attack know where to explode?"

 

Whether set off by time or distance, the character using such a power would still need to know how to detect their desired point (for example; exactly 9 feet between two of the closing enemy ships so that the spell sets both of them on fire), and either calculate the time for an attack to reach that point, or have Absolute Range Sense to accurately pinpoint the coordinates of its destination point.

 

*yes- it's a polite way of saying that "I'm assuming".

 

Isn't "respectfully submit" a form of submission to the other party (or parties) in a debate? (Keeping in mind that I recognize debates as being useful and, indeed, necessary for more than just disagreements of current beliefs; establishing new beliefs can be arbitrary but also may take place within the framework of a debate, where participants adopt the role of "Devil's Advocate" to test new theories and point out alternatives, and ideas must be proposed against a default of "not existing" with sufficient arguments to prove that they do exist, before they can be formally accepted.)

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

I posed this question to Steve:

 

Are characters able to target a hex when that hex is in the air? My understanding that you have to hit something solid (ground, wall, person, etc.) for the hex to be hit (and then the Area of Effect or Explosion takes place).

 

Situation: Character A is escaping and starts to fly away. Character B wants to stop A, but is having a hard time hitting him, so B fires an Energy Blast with the Explosion advantage at the hex A is in. Is that legal?

 

If this is legal, is it listed in FREd or another book?

 

 

He gave me this response:

 

See 5ER 375, top right, under "Area Of Effect Attack."

 

Since I have FREd and do not have 5ER, would someone tell me what this says?

 

Sure. First, it says that you can. Second, it specifically referes to AOE attacks, not to be confused with 'DD' - or 'direct damage' attacks. In your case, the power is an EB with an Explosive advantage, so the problem as I see it as this.

 

According to RAW, this is 100% legal. He targets a point in space and has the detonation occur there, which is a dramatic effect. Much of the material you posted seems to refer to 'real world' effects, and why those shouldn't work. But if he's throwing lightning around from his hands (eyes, toes, whatever) you're already dealing a couple of steps removed from reality. So it's book legal, done. Is it world legal? Does your game reality allow for this kind of fine control?

 

So now we get into an SFX argument - if this seems abusive to you (and it very well may) then you have the core choice of either introducing a new mechanic, rolling with it, or saying "not this power." Question: Would you have the same objection if the power, were say, Darkness 5" Radius? Where the PC can place darkness anywhere, not necessarily on an object?

 

Next question: for dramatic purposes, is it possible there's an object (a flagpole that isn't moving, a street light) that the PC can use to create the explosion in the attack? In other words, can you use GM fiat to "give" him the ability to do this, and rule for the future "This is a good idea but the SFX don't work in my campaign?"

 

Last question. If we were all standing on the ground, and you hit me with your Energon Blast (+EX), or at the least the hex I'm in, the effect would be the same. In that sense I mean, as Ghost Angel said, all powers start at '0.' They're open-descriptions waiting to be defined. Running is "the same as" flying in that they are both movement - EB is a ranged attack which a PC slapped an advantage on (+EX, in this case) to make it do something it doesn't do out of the box. But this clearly isn't synching with you - so is the hang up the flight, and he should have an advantage because he's in the air, or the Energy Blast?

 

If you're concerned about the EB requiring a surface against which to detonate, I would almost argue that it would be wrong to do so - because that would be an extra limitation (-1/4, or -0) to define how Explosion works. Explosion itself is straight forward: "The player defines a target hex for the explosion" - any hex, as it says on 375 (re: above).

 

Does that help?

[Shaft]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

Isn't "respectfully submit" a form of submission to the other party (or parties) in a debate?

 

Yes.

 

"I respectfully submit that you might be envisioning..." is actually the polite way of saying I assume. Heh- I misplaced the asterix.

[Shaft]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

Question: Would you have the same objection if the power, were say, Darkness 5" Radius? Where the PC can place darkness anywhere, not necessarily on an object?

 

Excellent question. Have some rep.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

If the attack in question is built with the Real Weapon Limitation (as it properly should be) then it's bound by the laws of reality and those supercede the mechanics of the game.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

Real Weapon is another way of saying "must smack real surface" but it's a little more open ended. You have a flying guy and an exploding lightning bolt guy. Not to say those wouldn't find their way into a DC campaign, I'm just saying it sounds like 4C/Gritty SH to me.