Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

I go with "real weapon means it has to hit a surface, where appropriate to the real weapon in question".

 

I believe we've had problems with you making assumptions on what I'm stating by taking information that's not there. I mentioned more than grenades' date=' but the grenade was [u']one[/u] example.

 

There have been several examples which would imply any hex can be targeted and contact is unnecessary, and others that would imply contact is required. By the rules, the former is the default and the latter is a limitation.

 

The former' date=' in my opinion. Flight doesn't prevent anyone from targeting the charcter. Like running, swimming, swinging, leaping, or teleport, flight can be used to increase distance (and range penalties), but it doesn't simply prevent a character from being targeted.[/quote']

 

By your interpretation, Flight DOES prevent the character being targeted by area effect or explosive attacks, since you believe these attacks should not be permitted to target a hex in the air, but they can target any hex on the ground. The ground hexes are subject to range penalties, but the air hexes would be as well.

 

I haven't seen the official rule, but by what's been implied, it seems -to me- as poorly thought out as the official stance on characters being permanently large, shrunk, or with density increase.

 

The sfx of the energy blast is lightning. To me, what the character is doing seems to be having his EB explode by proximity, which seems more appropriate with the Trigger advantage. I have yet to see anything to counter this view.

 

The Explosion advantage makes it explode when it hits the target hex. This is what the advantage does. I don't need Trigger on my non-advantaged Energy Blast to make it inflict damage when it strikes the target either.

 

Because I was responding to examples using technology. Also' date=' real world technology is much easier to relate to than fantasy concepts.[/quote']

 

But real world technology is only a small subset of SFX that the game attempts to simulate. As only a small subset, its unique issues would longically modify the standard rule, not require all other SFX to modify the standard rule.

 

You don't need to become a condescending jerk just because I don't agree with your opinion.

 

As opposed to your calm and respectful responses to those who don't agree with your opinion, of course.

 

While the fireball may have merit' date=' generally they hit something before they explode. [/quote']

 

Some of the spell descriptions I recall have the Fireball explode if it strikes an object before reaching the desired explosion point. All of them allow the point of explosion to be specified, with no requirent an object be struck.

 

The psionic concussion blast would be useless hitting dead air space since it needs to contact a brain - everything else is unaffected' date=' unlike say a fireball.[/quote']

 

The location where the Fireball detonates may not be affected either. Nothing prevents that Psionic Burst starting at a point in space and interacting with every brain it encounters as it explodes outwards (other than a restrictive vision of the possible SFX of an ability).

 

This seems the best suggestion offered should I opt to allow this in the future. Would you modify the roll with standard range modifiers?

 

In my view, the character is already taking range modifiers to target the desired hex. Why should he take a penalty again? How is it any easier to target a hex 11" away on the ground than one 11" away in the air? In both cases, the attacker is presumably using the target character to sight in the hex, not trying to toss the attack as close as possible to 22 meters away without going over.

 

In my campaign' date=' the PC is 11" away from the NPC, which is a -4 Range modifier. Would you think it to be fair to give a -4 to the Perception roll and for every 1 it's missed by, that's 1" away from the target or +1 DCV for the hex? (I'm thinking 1" away from the target would be more appropriate.)[/quote']

 

I would think it fair to apply -4 to the player's OCV to hit the hex in the first place, and if he misses the hex, that's 1" away from the target hex for every 1 point he misses the attack roll by. Just as the rules state.

 

If I may be permitted a moment to intuit, it really sounds like you didn't anticipate your high DCV flyer being readily targeted by area effect or explosive attacks, and now you're looking for reasons to deny the player the abilities paid for with his character points. That may not actually be the case, but you seem very dead set against allowing a character who can fire explosive lightning bolts from his hands to target a specific hex, off the ground, for his explosion point. I don't see a lot of "realistic" electric explosions fired from a person's hands against which to measure the realism of the default abilities provided by the Explosion advantage.

 

While this reminds me of Darkseid' date=' wouldn't you say he has an advantage (such as Continuous) on his Omega beams as opposed to just having a regular EB? (His Omega beams [b']can[/b] go around corners and chase people, after all.)

 

I would say the ones that go around corners are Indirect. The ones that go in a straight line and explode have Explosion. Beams that go around a corner and then explode are Indirect Explosions. You don't, in my opinion, require Indirect to use your Explosion off the ground. Ranged attacks can be fired in three dimensions.

 

Would you allow him to target a distant hex with no penalty other than range? If "yes' date='" then -to me- that's saying the controller can just as easily determine how far away 10' is as he can 500' -and that I don't see happening (without absolute range sense).[/quote']

 

Yes, I would permit him to target a distant hex based on something he can perceive in that hex which differentiates it from other empty hexes (such as, say, a flying villain located in that hex). The range penalty accounts for the difficulty in targetting something - be it a hex or a character - that far away. No further penalty is necessary, or appropriate. However, I would not allow the character to automatically know the target is 500' away (rather than 400' or 600') without absolute range sense.

 

Similarly, I consider it reasonable to require players to declare their movement and attack decisions BEFORE counting out the hexes distant unless they have Absolute Range Sense. There is no reason Freddy Flyer should somehow "know" that a half move of 8" will place him precisely 4" away from Barney Brick, so he won't take a range penalty when he fires off his EB.

 

This sounds just like Trigger which states "This Advantage allows the character to set up a power which will activate when a given circumstance occurs. Some examples of Trigger include...reaching a certain altitude." [Emphasis Mine] (FREd' date=' p.174) I don't think the PC (or NPC) should get that option for free. Either they should have a trigger or, like Hyper-Man suggested, there should be perception rolls included.[/quote']

 

A Trigger that sets off an attack when it hits a given altitute permits a character to ""set" an EB, put it on an aircraft and know it will go off when the plane hits a certain altitude. It permits the attack to wait and go off at a later point in time. Attack powers permit the character to select the point he is attacking. Area Effect and Explosion powers permit them to use a hext, rather than a smaller target, as the point attacked, and affect targets a set distance from that point.

 

It is, to me, no more reasonable to require a Trigger to allow an explosion to detonate at a hex 11" up than to allow it to detonate 11" away at ground level.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

Bottom line is this: any power, incliding a power+advantage that has an area of effect can target a hex, even one in mid-air. if it makes no sense for that particular power to be able to do that then I would say it is worth a limitation, probably -1/4 or -1/2: it would make targetting many fliers as hard as if you did not have the advantage.

 

Note that the limitation would be applied to the points on the advantage, as it is only limiting the advantage - not to the whole power+advantage cost.

 

This makes it quite difficult to assess a limtiation for a power that inherently has an area of effect.

 

Perhaps -1/4 for a power that inherently has AoE, and -1/2 on the advantaeg for one that doesn't?

 

Then 60 points in darkness that had to target a surface would cost you 48 points and a 40 point EB with 'explosion' would cosy you 53 points, and a 30 point EB with AoE would cost yu 50. I could live with that.

 

Whilst you could use 'real weapon' I'm not sure that helps - some real weapons can go ff in an empty hex: the grenade mentioned earlier, if you time it right, can go off in mid-air, or a fly by wire missile - real weapons, air explosions. Also 'real weapon' carries a lot of other baggage not necessarily appropriate for the power - I mean, why would your mutant ability to project explosive energies need cleaning and oiling?

 

The other problem with 'real weapon' as a more generic point, but one well illustrated here, is that it CAN mean very different things for different powers. An explosion power would seem more limited ,for instacne, than a straight EB power. Whilst 'real weapon' is a convenient shorthand it does not preclude you using other limtiations to simulate a certain 'reality'.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

While this reminds me of Darkseid' date=' wouldn't you say he has an advantage (such as Continuous) on his Omega beams as opposed to just having a regular EB? (His Omega beams [b']can[/b] go around corners and chase people, after all.)

 

Yeah, he has an indirect slot, an normal eb slot (which keeps going) and an explosion slot that can detonate anywhere he wants.

 

Would you allow him to target a distant hex with no penalty other than range? If "yes," then -to me- that's saying the controller can just as easily determine how far away 10' is as he can 500' -and that I don't see happening (without absolute range sense).

Sure.

If they make the attack roll they hit the hex, if they don't they miss.

 

This sounds just like Trigger which states "This Advantage allows the character to set up a power which will activate when a given circumstance occurs. Some examples of Trigger include...reaching a certain altitude." [Emphasis Mine] (FREd, p.174) I don't think the PC (or NPC) should get that option for free. Either they should have a trigger or, like Hyper-Man suggested, there should be perception rolls included.

I always read the altitude as "Trigger goes off at 1000 ft" kind of a bomb, so you set the power, and it goes off at that point.

I generally do not use trigger on an instant power that goes off when used, just for delayed things, or traps and such (or the autoreset that represents an ongoing ability). An attack to a hex in midair is a "do it now" kind of thing, and thus I think not something to be used with trigger.

 

 

You can target a ground hex with nothing in it with no penalties at 10" away with an explosion/AE. It seems wrong to charge someone more to do the same thing in a different direction, just because the direction happens to be "up."

[The Souljourner]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

The rules say you can target a hex. Most of Hero rules kinda assume a 2D map, but there's an implicit assumption that hexes are 2 meters tall.

 

Anyway... if you want to shoot your EB Explosion at a hex 20 meters off the ground.... unless you took some kind of limitation on it like "only detonates on contact with a solid surface" then you can do just that. Targetting a hex is targetting a hex, nothing says there has to be solid ground there.

 

-Nate

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

The psionic concussion blast would be useless hitting dead air space since it needs to contact a brain - everything else is unaffected' date=' unlike say a fireball.[/quote']

 

I didn't say Psionic Mind Blast. I said "Concussion" as in A Shockwave.

 

Psionic Concussion Blast: 12D6 EB, Explosion.

--A Traied Psionic using their mind to affect the world around them can create a shockwave of force that physically blasts anything caught in its affect, often knocking them aside and damaging them.

 

The point is: You're trying to force the system to default to a Limited State when what you really want are the correct set of Limitations on certain SFX.

 

Like "Real Weapon" on bullets, greanades, bombs, missiles, and associated types of attacks.

[Kirby]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

*yes- it's a polite way of saying that "I'm assuming".

No' date=' assume means [i']to take for granted or without proof[/i], but you're responding intelligently to what I've actually mentioned. Assuming is what Hugh Neilson does. I state red is my favorite color and he responds with "I assume you don't like blue at all."

 

Shaft, you've put some interesting thoughts/perspectives into my head, along with what a few others have mentioned. One aspect I may have been seeing different is that I had been under the impression that explosions at the ground level, when you targeted the hex, you were targeting the ground of the hex.

 

I need to ponder this a bit.

 

My original question still hasn't been answered (which may have cleared things up, but may not have).

Since I have FREd and do not have 5ER' date=' would someone tell me what this [5ER 375, top right, under "Area Of Effect Attack."']says?

Perhaps I should add/clarify with "If someone knows how to properly quote the text/passage, would you please do so for me?"

[Kirby]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

You can target a ground hex with nothing in it with no penalties at 10" away with an explosion/AE.

Why do Explosion and AoE get no penalties at 10" when all other attacks have no penalties in the 0-4" range?

 

Anyway... if you want to shoot your EB Explosion at a hex 20 meters off the ground.... unless you took some kind of limitation on it like "only detonates on contact with a solid surface" then you can do just that. Targetting a hex is targetting a hex' date=' nothing says there has to be solid ground there.[/quote']This may be something mistaught to me when I started playing Champions. With my original gaming group, Area of Effects and Explosions were always used against ground opponents. Either I was mistaught it that way, or since that's how we used it I understood it to be that way. Hmm. (With that being over 10 years ago, I don't recall how it came about. )

[Kirby]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

Question: Would you have the same objection if the power' date=' were say, Darkness 5" Radius? Where the PC can place darkness anywhere, not necessarily on an object?[/quote']Before today, I'd probably have said "yes" for certain.

 

Even in the description of Darkness (FREd, p.96) it states "A Darkness field is usually targeted on a hex...." [Emphasis mine.] After seeing some of the replies here, it may have been a better choice to use the preposition "in" instead of "on" as "on" implies a surface.

 

As a qualifier, for the first Champions gaming group I played with (and did so for 5+ years), this issue never even came up. No one ever cast Darkness anywhere other than "ground level" (be it the ground, a dock, a floor in a building, etc.).

 

If you're concerned about the EB requiring a surface against which to detonate, I would almost argue that it would be wrong to do so - because that would be an extra limitation (-1/4, or -0) to define how Explosion works. Explosion itself is straight forward: "The player defines a target hex for the explosion" - any hex, as it says on 375 (re: above).

 

Does that help?

Yes, it does help a bit. Thank you.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

Even in the description of Darkness (FREd' date=' p.96) it states "A Darkness field is usually targeted [b']on[/b] a hex...." [Emphasis mine.] After seeing some of the replies here, it may have been a better choice to use the preposition "in" instead of "on" as "on" implies a surface.

 

As a qualifier, for the first Champions gaming group I played with (and did so for 5+ years), this issue never even came up. No one ever cast Darkness anywhere other than "ground level" (be it the ground, a dock, a floor in a building, etc.).

 

AHA. I see now. Here's the difference: you're correct, in the sense that your brain tells you (as it did me, before playing the f'ing game, as I'm fond of saying) that everything is 'ground level.' In d20, which I'm somewhat more familiar with, these sorts of things don't often come up. In HERO, a 'hex' is a 2" x 2" x 2" zone; it's 2" at the base, 2" high and 2" wide (it's a hex, but you know what I mean.) Which means that every occurance of a hex is only ever 2" high - they don't reach infinitely high. 2" over your hex is another hex.

 

With that logic, targeting "a hex" would be inclusive of any and all hexes in range - not just those on ground level. I think (based on my interpretation of what you wrote) that's where the hang up is.

 

New question: if the game were full of fliers, and explosions around them were common as part of the dramatic effect, would it make more sense to allow it then, since you'd be thinking of the flight combat in terms of 'planes' on which the 'pieces' are situated?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

Why do Explosion and AoE get no penalties at 10" when all other attacks have no penalties in the 0-4" range?

 

Sorry, I was unclear. As in No Extra Penalties - why should an attack going up 10" have any more penalties to hit than one going 10" sideways.

 

As for the text you wish to see:

"A character can use an Area of Effect Attack to target a hex in the air, underwater or the like ... - he't not limited to targeting hexes on the ground."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

"The rules in this section cover not only Area Of Effect ayacks' date=' but any attack directed against a point on the ground (in other words, a hex) rather than a person or an upright object. A character can also use an Area Of Effect Attack to target a hex in the air, underwater or the like (for example, to attack a parachutist or submarine) - he't not limited to targeting hexes on the ground."[/quote']

 

Unfortunately, the problem isn't "what do the rules say" at this point, but "why don't the rules match your preconceived notion that only hexes on the ground may be targeted". It seems pretty obvious that you had already decided what the rule should be, so does having the actual text of what the rule IS actually provide any assistance?

 

Kirby, out of curiosity, how did you resolve the issue for your game (I assume it's not on hold while we all spout our own opinions on this thread).

 

One further note: it seems the key erroneous assumption on this thread is the assumption that an AoE attack must target a hex on the ground.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

One further note: it seems the key erroneous assumption on this thread is the assumption that an AoE attack must target a hex on the ground.

 

That's the core of what I said in my prior post - the big difference here is between perception (hex means ground) and system (hex is defined as any 2" hexagonal cubic form in space), meaning that hexes stack and create different heights. That's where the core of my first string of questions came from.

 

Hence my question: Would this be a problem if it were Darkness, and Kirby replied that before he read the rules and ideas we posted, he would have said 'absolutely, you can't do it' but he's rethinking that now. Just didn't want you to re-cover material we're already in the midst of discussing.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

This reminds me of discussions regarding Explosions and the idea of Radius only meaning two dimensions.

 

I remember a story, might have been posted here even, about someone who said they "Jumped out of the way of the explosion" Basing the idea if they jumped up 1" the explosion wasn't a sphere, but a disc.

 

I seem to remember it being based off the idea that the word Radius was used . . . forgetting that a Sphere also has a radius.

 

Gamers, unless playing a system specifically gearing towards it, often forget about the vertical dimension; this may have something to do with it being very difficult to float a minature in the air above a hex map.

[McCoy]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

This reminds me of discussions regarding Explosions and the idea of Radius only meaning two dimensions.

 

I remember a story, might have been posted here even, about someone who said they "Jumped out of the way of the explosion" Basing the idea if they jumped up 1" the explosion wasn't a sphere, but a disc.

 

I seem to remember it being based off the idea that the word Radius was used . . . forgetting that a Sphere also has a radius.

 

Gamers, unless playing a system specifically gearing towards it, often forget about the vertical dimension; this may have something to do with it being very difficult to float a minature in the air above a hex map.

And I have had GM's rule that Area Effect attacks are two dimensional, otherwise they would have been called Volume Effects. Some of us overthink this.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

And I have had GM's rule that Area Effect attacks are two dimensional' date=' otherwise they would have been called Volume Effects. Some of us overthink this.[/quote']

 

Oh how true THAT statement is. (and I can't REP you for it either, sigh)

[Shaft]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

Nor can I. Of course, by the time I can add some rep to McCoy, he'll have gone and said something witty elsewhere and I'll still be owing him...

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

Wow, that's odd. i always assumed that 'radius' meant a sphere unless noted otherwise. I had a discussion with Klaital some time ago wherein I said exactly that - you CAN define a Fireball as being a two-dimensional flaming disc with no vertical... but why would you? And can you make it clear & be consistent about it?

[Shaft]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

Wow' date=' that's odd. i always assumed that 'radius' meant a sphere unless noted otherwise. I had a discussion with Klaital some time ago wherein I said exactly that - you CAN define a Fireball as being a two-dimensional flaming disc with no vertical... but why would you? And can you make it clear & be consistent about it?[/quote']

 

According to Hero Designer, a 2D area effect is actually a -1/4 reduction in the cost.

 

It can simulate the requisite "ring effect" seen in silver-screen planetary-explosions.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

Mmm. HERO. So tasty. So inclusive. Delish.

[Shaft]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

Mmm. HERO. So tasty. So inclusive. Delish.

 

Same great taste you've always loved, without the fattening d20.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

Actually, HERO represents a massive dietary change for me. One year, and 50 inconsistent rules lighter! What can HERO do for YOU?

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

This reminds me of discussions regarding Explosions and the idea of Radius only meaning two dimensions.

 

I remember a story, might have been posted here even, about someone who said they "Jumped out of the way of the explosion" Basing the idea if they jumped up 1" the explosion wasn't a sphere, but a disc.

The 2D/3D Area Effect question was... well not one of the Great Debates (such as Linked), but still a Pretty Good debate. I'm glad 5e clarified it.

 

Actually, before 5e I was doing several things "incorrectly" - the word is in quotes because I had (in my judgement) solid arguments for them based on the BBB text. For example, it never occured to me that you could activate more than one power in a single attack... although understanding this did finally make Power Crusher a reasonable opponent. Also, several different rounding rules are used (Character creation, Velocity damage adds, -OCV for STR mins).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

The 2D/3D Area Effect question was... well not one of the Great Debates (such as Linked)' date=' but still a Pretty Good debate. I'm glad 5e clarified it.[/quote']

Yes. I remember being involved in that one. IMG, AE can be 3D or 2D, depending on SFX, and you don't get a limitation for 2D - in almost any context where you want a 2D effect, it won't be a significant enough limitation to be worth even -1/4. Even in supers games, most targets will be on the ground, especially when you're trying to hit multiple mooks with your AE (one of its common uses).

 

F'rinstance, in a FH game, I had a "druid" type with an AE Radius Entangle - the grass grabs everyone in the area. Obviously, it would make no sense to grab something flying several meters off the ground. But even the 2D surface in this case might have bumps in it if there are hills and dips within the area.

 

And re: targeting empty hexes in the air: It isn't just a matter of perception, you also can feel how hard you're throwing the grenade (or rock, or basketball, etc.), so you know how high/far it will go. Presumably, mutant-lightning-man can "feel" his "lightning muscles" in the same way and can tell how far he's throwing his EB.

 

You can throw a basketball through a hoop. If the hoop is removed, you could still throw the ball through the same spot in the air.

[RPMiller]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

In the effort of full disclosure and clarification, it is my character Jiggawatt that is the center of this debate. Here is the writeup of the power:

 

Electrical Surge: Energy Blast 9d6, Explosion (+1/2), Nonselective Target (-1/4) (56 Active Points); No Knockback (-1/4)

 

I also have this power which should probably be mentioned as it will come up eventually I'm sure:

 

Electricity Net: Energy Blast 5d6, Area Of Effect (3" Radius; +1) (50 Active Points); No Knockback (-1/4)

 

His power is that he absorbs, stores and releases electricity. He is also able to manipulate the electricity around him to create a field of charged electricity to paralyze a target or to ionize the air to lift him and allow him to fly.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Need help with 5ER and targeting a hex.

 

In the effort of full disclosure and clarification, it is my character Jiggawatt that is the center of this debate. Here is the writeup of the power:

 

Electrical Surge: Energy Blast 9d6, Explosion (+1/2), Nonselective Target (-1/4) (56 Active Points); No Knockback (-1/4)

 

I also have this power which should probably be mentioned as it will come up eventually I'm sure:

 

Electricity Net: Energy Blast 5d6, Area Of Effect (3" Radius; +1) (50 Active Points); No Knockback (-1/4)

 

His power is that he absorbs, stores and releases electricity. He is also able to manipulate the electricity around him to create a field of charged electricity to paralyze a target or to ionize the air to lift him and allow him to fly.

 

Now I really need to catch up on downloading new characters posted to the vault!

 

I seem to recall a Marvel comics villain with electrical powers that almost never missed. I'll have to see if I can find the old Marvel U Handbook reference for him (I remember the costume only; green and yellow lightning bolts)