Frameworks modifying frameworks

[gojira]

Hi all.

 

I've got a question regarding modifying Power Frameworks. Let's say a character has two Multipowers. One is bag of "trick arrows" all with the lim "No range," the other is a bow Multipower with one slot "Ranged effect on Trick Arrows."

 

For example:

 

60 Multipower, Trick Arrows, No Range (-1/2), 40 Real points

4 u Regular Arrow 12d6 EB

4 u Explosive Arrow 8d6 EB, Explosion

4 u Piercing Arrow 8d6 EB, Armor Piercing

 

40 Multipower, Bow

4 u Ranged on Trick Arrow Multipower

3 u Missile Deflection, 16-

 

Kinda cheesy, but is it book legal? Don't worry about the math, I didn't check it carefully. It's just the "Ranged on Trick Arrow MP" part I'm concerned about. The Bow Multipower should probably have OAF and the Trick Arrows should have charges, I'm just glossing over that for now.

 

 

Thanks!

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

I’m not sure it it’s “book legal” but if someone tried to bring that build into my game I’d shoot it down in a heartbeat. On second thought, I’m pretty sure this violates the “if it doesn’t disadvantage it doesn’t get points” philosophy. So no, not book legal.

 

Edit: On third thought I seem to remember that somewhere in the book it specifically states that you can’t buy a power “No Range” and then add the advantage “Ranged” to it, which is what this build does. So again, not book legal.

[tesuji]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

forgive me for asking... why?

 

Why not just put the Missile Deflection into a BOW multipower to start with...SFX "blocked his shot with an arrow" or maybe a specific "blocking arrowhead"

 

I mean you are clearly not planning on using the bow for offense AND missile deflecting (stabbing him with arrows?) so put them in the same multipower and go for it? the slot cost for a miss-d slot will be less than what you spend, if my off the cuff math is correct.

 

Heck

 

60 ap MP bow and arrows -1 OAF 30 cp

3 12d6 arrow (16c)

3 8d6 XP (16c)

3 8d6 AP (16c)

2 Missile deflection any type at range (maybe sneak in some bonuses to the roll to bring it to 60 ap and 3 pt slot cost.)

 

but normally, no, one slot cannot aid another slot in another MP.

 

you might slip a naked advantage past your GM.

[gojira]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

forgive me for asking... why?

 

One reason is it's good SFX. If the Bow is lost, an arrow can still be used at 0 Range. Both Speedy and Green Arrow have done this.

 

but normally, no, one slot cannot aid another slot in another MP.

 

Technically, it's modifying the whole MP, not just one slot. But that's exactly the rule I was concerned about. It does in fact modify slots, indirectly.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

One reason is it's good SFX. If the Bow is lost, an arrow can still be used at 0 Range. Both Speedy and Green Arrow have done this.

 

That is typically one of those abilities that is used so infrequently that I would suggest using the Power Skill to handle it. It's usually not worth the effort of stating out with points since with enough extra time the same thing could be done with other gun based ammo (like 40mm grenades)

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

Kinda cheesy' date=' but is it book legal?[/quote']No. 5ER, p. 310: "However, a slot in a Power Framework cannot add to or modify a slot in the same or another Power Framework, or the same or another Power Framework as a whole."

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

An alternative build that would be legal, however, is to build the arrows with Limited Range: Range Based on Strength and then have the second multipower's first slot add STR only for shooting arrows.

 

It, however, is still probably easier to build the bow as seperate powers, however.

 

Even easier to go the Power trick route.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

here's a link to an archer character I posted recently:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1237643&postcount=79

[archermoo]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

I have in the past created archers by having a multipower that were their arrows (all non-ranged attacks) and then having the bow purchased as range for the arrows. I've never put the bow in another framework however.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

What I find funny is that the original writup for Rainbow Archer all the way back in Enemies 3 was built exactly that way. Arrows in 1 MP nonrange and a second MP with 2 slots - ranged and Missle D.

 

*sigh* showing my age.

[gojira]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

No. 5ER' date=' p. 310: "However, a slot in a Power Framework cannot add to or modify a slot in the same or another Power Framework, or the same or another Power Framework as a whole."[/quote']

 

Thanks! Sidekick, which is what I'm going from personally, doesn't have "or another Power Framework." Makes sense though.

 

What I find funny is that the original writup for Rainbow Archer all the way back in Enemies 3 was built exactly that way. Arrows in 1 MP nonrange and a second MP with 2 slots - ranged and Missle D.

 

*sigh* showing my age.

 

Hehe, after that big old "archers in the CU" thread in the Champions forum, where do you think I got this build from? Straight from ol' Rainbow Archer in Enemies III. Can you believe that second Multipower, the Bow, also has OAF and "Not in water" on it? OMG teh cheese!!1!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

What I find funny is that the original writup for Rainbow Archer all the way back in Enemies 3 was built exactly that way. Arrows in 1 MP nonrange and a second MP with 2 slots - ranged and Missle D.

 

*sigh* showing my age.

 

I remember that as well.

 

Another version I've seen is a number of modular arrowheads, all No Range, with Range applied with charges through an OAF Bow and Arrows. You might have 4 of each of 20 modular arrowheads, but if you only have 16 arrows...

 

This really doesn't seem all that abusive to me, but it's not book legal. To me, it sounds like the bow is a Naked Advantage on any arrowheads.

 

BTW, so what if it's "not like you'll be missile deflecting and firing an arrow at the same time anyway"? Something like 90% of all multipowers I ever see are mutually exclusive powers (like attacks, before we had the MPA rule anyway).

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

What I find funny is that the original writup for Rainbow Archer all the way back in Enemies 3 was built exactly that way. Arrows in 1 MP nonrange and a second MP with 2 slots - ranged and Missle D.

 

*sigh* showing my age.

[flips through Enemies III]

 

Dang, you're right!

 

How the game has grown/changed...

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

A Naked Advantage still works, though...

[Robyn]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

BTW' date=' so what if it's "not like you'll be missile deflecting and firing an arrow at the same time anyway"? Something like 90% of all multipowers I ever see are mutually exclusive powers (like attacks, before we had the MPA rule anyway).[/quote']

 

I can think of a situation where you might want to be doing both, actually (and the SFX would conceptually justify it).

 

Your character is facing off against another archer, who has just sent an arrow toward you. You want to send your arrow along their flight path, so it splinters through the center of theirs (sending the pieces off to all sides) and punches through to continue until it hits the enemy.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

I can think of a situation where you might want to be doing both, actually (and the SFX would conceptually justify it).

 

Your character is facing off against another archer, who has just sent an arrow toward you. You want to send your arrow along their flight path, so it splinters through the center of theirs (sending the pieces off to all sides) and punches through to continue until it hits the enemy.

 

Sfx has nothing to do with it.

Missle Deflection as well as the similar Block manuever are both considered "attack" actions. Using it ends a characters phase. The rules also advise against automating it via Trigger.

[Robyn]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

Sfx has nothing to do with it.

 

While you made excellent points about the mechanics, you completely missed my point. SFX has everything to do with conceptually wanting to do it: SFX is the concept of how it would be done. That the system doesn't allow it is irrelevant, since the SFX is easily imaginable: it's a minor variation of a classic trick (Robin Hood at the archery contest).

[JmOz]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

I can think of a situation where you might want to be doing both, actually (and the SFX would conceptually justify it).

 

Your character is facing off against another archer, who has just sent an arrow toward you. You want to send your arrow along their flight path, so it splinters through the center of theirs (sending the pieces off to all sides) and punches through to continue until it hits the enemy.

 

Multiple Power Attack, power one is missile deflection, power two is your RKA, perfectly legal in the system

[Robyn]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

Multiple Power Attack' date=' power one is missile deflection, power two is your RKA, perfectly legal in the system[/quote']

 

Oh.

 

And here I was thinking that reading the combat chapter might be dangerous, and wondering if I'd find bliss in ignorance

[Mike W]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

While you made excellent points about the mechanics' date=' you completely missed my point. SFX has [b']everything[/b] to do with conceptually wanting to do it: SFX is the concept of how it would be done. That the system doesn't allow it is irrelevant, since the SFX is easily imaginable: it's a minor variation of a classic trick (Robin Hood at the archery contest).

 

I would argue that it isn't a "minor variation" though because by making the arrow both moving and oncoming you make the shot MUCH harder. For one, you have far less time to take the shot. It's also much harder to acquire the target. Moving targets are much more difficult to hit(grab a shotgun, go shoot stationary targets, then shoot skeet. If you hit 3 skeet the first time, you're doing well and those targets are going across your field of vision, which is much easier than an oncoming target because you have more time).

 

Also, you now need to have a much stronger "pull" to your bow than the opposing archer because you have to generate enough velocity to overcome the incoming arrow's velocity AND have enough force to split the arrow AND have enough remaining speed to damage the target on the other side.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

Multiple Power Attack' date=' power one is missile deflection, power two is your RKA, perfectly legal in the system[/quote']

 

Not true,

 

All attacks used in a Multiple Power Attack must be aimed at the same target. If the Missle Deflection is targeting the attack (another arrow in this case) that's all the RKA can target as well.

 

It might be possible to use Rapid Fire to shoot 2 arrows in one phase (1 as RKA, 1 as Missle Deflect). But if the first shot misses they both miss.

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

Not true,

 

All attacks used in a Multiple Power Attack must be aimed at the same target. If the Missle Deflection is targeting the attack (another arrow in this case) that's all the RKA can target as well.

 

It might be possible to use Rapid Fire to shoot 2 arrows in one phase (1 as RKA, 1 as Missle Deflect). But if the first shot misses they both miss.

 

Not true because missle deflection is not an attack and thus it's not subject to the must attack same target rule and thus would be legal! if it had reflection on it it may be argued that it's an attack power bbut even then not really. Thumbs up I say its a legal build but more importantly the system would agree!

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

Not true' date='[/quote']

 

Under MPA is also says you shouldn't MPA defensive manuevers either.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

Well, a counter shot could also be modeled as a Dispel, which can be MPA'ed with another attack. Hitting the attack in the air rather than at the attacks point of origin is, in game terms, just SFX.

[dstarfire]

Re: Frameworks modifying frameworks

 

All this talk about MPA's... I seem to recall that you couldn't combine powers from two different frameworks for an MPA.

 

Secondly, if you combine the missile deflection in the attack powers framework, the char couldn't abort to it after they've taken an attack in a previous phase, as changing slots in a multipower is a zero phase action, not a free one.