This is really frustrating me!

[tesuji]

I would make "reflect melee attacks" another category to buy for MD, pricing it at about +20 points..

 

It expands the scope of the power, which attacks can be reflected without increasing the capability... each reflection attempt is only stopping one attack, you just chose a different attack.

 

It does not seem any more significant a increase in scope than say the difference between thrown weapons only and all ranged attacks (limited by fx.)

 

Since bricks are not more vulnerable to punches than energy balsters are to their energy blasts, the deflection angle seems not to be a problem issue either.

 

besides, block is free, so all we are really talking about here is adding reflection to block... the 'missile deflection" for melee is already there in block.

 

this really doesn't seem like some uber ability needing massive constructions.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Farkling

Isn't it simply easier to add one more power to the book that acts as Missile Deflection/Reflection with hand to hand attacks?

 

Probably. In fact I declared in a previous post that I favor that approach myself. But there are quite a few HERO gamers (like the gentleman who started this thread) who prefer to find a legal way under the rules to create an effect, rather than house-rule it.

 

Mind you, even if you added a Melee Reflection Power based on Missile Reflection, you'd still have to decide if you wanted to define categories for what type of HTH attacks could be reflected at what cost levels, comparable to the thrown weapons/bullets/any categories for Missile Reflection.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

The damage shield is the CLOSEST special effect for this by my information, since it DOES damage to HtH attackers. But it still has to be saddled with a Variable Advvantage to cover everything as a reflection, and needs to exceed most active point limits set for a campaign.

 

Variable Advantage wouldn't really apply in this instance; I suppose you could make a case for Variable Special Effects being necessary, but IMHO it would be more a matter of defining what range of HTH attack/damage the Damage Shield construct could be applied to (Normal Damage, Killing Damage, Physical, Energy, etc.)

 

Originally posted by Farkling

Hmmm....that would be a flaw with the damage shield construct also...if a focus hits the target, doesn't the focus take the damaage?

Swordguy: "I hit him with my sword"

Blocker: "I reflect the attack back at him" (makes roll)

GM: "Swordguy's sword shatters as you complete the manuever"

 

It's always been part of defining the SFX of a Damage Shield as to whether the damage affects a weapon that contacts the Shield, or the person holding the weapon. There may be constructs for which harming the weapon instead of the wielder would be entirely appropriate.

 

Thanks for raising interesting points.

[Agent Escafarc]

After further review with my GM we decided to stick with the Stretching Damage Shield. We thought it was best choice for the SF/X of my character.

[Agent X]

I'm still thinking what I came up with best addresses Yamo's concerning upper limits of reflected melee attacks. This creates a melee reflection power that absolutely mimics missile reflection, including the need for a 1/2 phase action and the ability to abort.

[Agent X]

Just read Steve Long's response to what I came up with. As far as I can tell, they aren't too interested in a melee reflection power that doesn't cost rediculous sums or they favor the +0 advantage idea. I guess time will tell.

[Lord Liaden]

I do hope that Steve will consider dealing with this concept in a future HEROglyphs column for Digital Hero. This is one of those concepts (like an "always hits" attack or stopping time) for which there doesn't seem to be a clearly intuitive approach in the system.

[Kristopher]

Is there really room in an RPG for an "always hits" attack?

[Chris Goodwin]

The archetypal "always hits" attack is D&D's Magic Missile, which has been around for at least 25 years. So yeah, I'd guess so. The reason people want it in Hero is so they can do a Hero version of Magic Missile.

[Lord Liaden]

And Steve did address the Magic Missile construct in his HEROglyphs column in DH #2. It's actually a concept which has precedent outside of gaming, e.g. in myth Thor's hammer Mjollnir would never fail to hit its target when thrown. One of the big selling points for the HERO System is that you supposedly can create any ability you can conceive of (at least approximately, if not precisely). Sometimes it takes some system gymnastics, though, and who can make HERO do a triple twisting backflip dismount better than the guy who wrote the book?

[Yamo]

And Steve did address the Magic Missile construct in his HEROglyphs column in DH #2. It's actually a concept which has precedent outside of gaming, e.g. in myth Thor's hammer Mjollnir would never fail to hit its target when thrown. One of the big selling points for the HERO System is that you supposedly can create any ability you can conceive of (at least approximately, if not precisely). Sometimes it takes some system gymnastics, though, and who can make HERO do a triple twisting backflip dismount better than the guy who wrote the book?

 

Can I get a brief summary of how he did it if it's not too much trouble? Don't cut and paste the whole article, or anything. Just a brief description of how the Power was written-up.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Yamo

Can I get a brief summary of how he did it if it's not too much trouble? Don't cut and paste the whole article, or anything. Just a brief description of how the Power was written-up.

Yamo, have you looked at my suggestion for melee deflection/reflection? Is that too expensive? If so, how cheap do you think melee deflection/reflection should be?

[Yamo]

Yamo, have you looked at my suggestion for melee deflection/reflection? Is that too expensive? If so, how cheap do you think melee deflection/reflection should be?

 

That makes sense. I've never heard of a naked Advantage UAA. Interesting.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Yamo

That makes sense. I've never heard of a naked Advantage UAA. Interesting.

I asked Steve Long if he would be interested in a USPD write-up of the power. He wasn't interested.

[Kristopher]

It's been so long since I've had anything to do with D&D that I'd forgetten Magic Missile. Most other "always hits" attacks in RPGs at least require some kind of skill roll on the part of the attacker to launch the thing. Magic Missile doesn't even have that.

 

Personally, I don't much care for the Magic Missile type of powers.

[Agent X]

I'm trying to remember a single "always hits" power in the comic books... and I'm not succeeding. It suppose it might show up in fantasy though.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Agent X

I'm trying to remember a single "always hits" power in the comic books... and I'm not succeeding. It suppose it might show up in fantasy though.

 

Having watched the Cartoon Network "Darkseid Marathon" last night, it seems that Darkseid's eyebeams rarely, ef ever, miss their target. They certainly have a serious helping of Indirect.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Kristopher

Having watched the Cartoon Network "Darkseid Marathon" last night, it seems that Darkseid's eyebeams rarely, ef ever, miss their target. They certainly have a serious helping of Indirect.

It has been suggested that you design them as a missile with the summon power. The beams can be outrun and occasionally misdirected to hit something else.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Yeah, I saw that the other night as well.

 

I'd write those up as Indirect, AE-1hex accurate with a (very) large OCV bonus. They do occasionaly miss (very occasionaly) but they don't seem to come around for multiple passes...

[Agent X]

Originally posted by NuSoardGraphite

Yeah, I saw that the other night as well.

 

I'd write those up as Indirect, AE-1hex accurate with a (very) large OCV bonus. They do occasionaly miss (very occasionaly) but they don't seem to come around for multiple passes...

They do in the comic books or at least they did when I read comics.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Yamo

Can I get a brief summary of how he did it if it's not too much trouble? Don't cut and paste the whole article, or anything. Just a brief description of how the Power was written-up.

 

I'd prefer not to refer directly to Steve's DH column openly on the boards without his permission; however, Steve did post an abbreviated version of his concepts on the pre-DOS forums, so I don't think he'd mind me reproducing that here:

 

RKA, NND, Does BODY, Area Of Effect (One Hex Accurate), used with a restricted type of Rapid Fire. The spell also includes a big fat pile of +1 Combat Skill Levels to overcome various penalties and come as close to an "automatic hit" as the HERO System will allow. The end result costs over 40 points, most of it being the CSLs.

 

For more details, I'm afraid you'll have to pick up Digital Hero #2.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

I'd prefer not to refer directly to Steve's DH column openly on the boards without his permission; however, Steve did post an abbreviated version of his concepts on the pre-DOS forums, so I don't think he'd mind me reproducing that here:

 

RKA, NND, Does BODY, Area Of Effect (One Hex Accurate), used with a restricted type of Rapid Fire. The spell also includes a big fat pile of +1 Combat Skill Levels to overcome various penalties and come as close to an "automatic hit" as the HERO System will allow. The end result costs over 40 points, most of it being the CSLs.

 

For more details, I'm afraid you'll have to pick up Digital Hero #2.

Well, I was on the right track then...

[Talon]

IMO, a power bought with enough OCV levels to hit anyone in the campaign on a 17- is close enough to "always hits" as makes no difference; just use a SFX other than "I missed" for when you roll an 18.

 

I actually had a PC in one of my games who took "Not My Fault" as a Perk...whenever he missed, it was due to some random aspect of the universe (ceiling tile falling, etc.). The /character/ never missed.

 

As for melee Reflection: one common SFX is a character who creates teleport gates, so that someone's attack literally appears behind them (or across the battlefield).

 

Although the Ranged UAA Advantage thing give me fits when I read it in the Questions forum (before seeing this thread), I think it's the best way to go -- expensive and cheesy, but gets the job done, and properly conveys the dangerousness of allowing this sort of power. ("Hm...no, you attack /him/, you attack /him/, and you attack yourself. OK.")

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

IMO, a power bought with enough OCV levels to hit anyone in the campaign on a 17- is close enough to "always hits" as makes no difference; just use a SFX other than "I missed" for when you roll an 18.

 

I actually had a PC in one of my games who took "Not My Fault" as a Perk...whenever he missed, it was due to some random aspect of the universe (ceiling tile falling, etc.). The /character/ never missed.

 

As for melee Reflection: one common SFX is a character who creates teleport gates, so that someone's attack literally appears behind them (or across the battlefield).

 

Although the Ranged UAA Advantage thing give me fits when I read it in the Questions forum (before seeing this thread), I think it's the best way to go -- expensive and cheesy, but gets the job done, and properly conveys the dangerousness of allowing this sort of power. ("Hm...no, you attack /him/, you attack /him/, and you attack yourself. OK.")

The Ranged UAA costs 62 points requires the character to spend another 40 points on missile reflection to reflect any basic attack. That's 102 points and the character still has to know the attack is coming and make the roll. It's not surefire and it costs 102 points! I'm not sure that's that cheesy. Throw in enhanced senses, 360 degrees, detect invisible as a targeting sense, and a pile of skill levels with a suppression field against area affect attacks - now that's cheesy... and expensive.

 

If the character is really only designed to reflect melee attacks and not true missile attacks it would probably cost 82 points thanks to a -1 limitation on the missile reflection.

[zornwil]

FWIW, I favor the approach of a +0 lim/adv on Missille Reflection/Deflection or the +20 adder to Missile Reflection/Deflection (although then you have a real limitation offsetting the fact it is no longer useful against missilles). To steal (I think) Geoff's sig, the rulebook does say not to get hung up on "the right way" and this is direct and seems to be in the ballpark being looked for. Because it is really reflection/deflection, it reflects the attack with all its pluses and minuses. I think it's less kludgy, even if less "mechanically correct" (and I leave the "if" in there for a reason), then Agent X' proposal, with all due respect to Agent X (as I do think it's a very good suggestion and has interesting possibilities of its own).

 

I understand Yamo rejected this, so that's why I say "FWIW" (which isn't much).

[Agent X]

I was just coming up with something that didn't require creating a new power. It may require GM's permission but it isn't a "House Rule" per se.

 

I actually would favor a power called melee deflection/reflection too, but not as an adder to missile deflection/reflection. Same points, same function, same limitations only for non-ranged attacks.