This is really frustrating me!

[Yamo]

I'm trying to design a viable "melee deflection and reflection" Power (or Multipower), but I can't quite get it right.

 

The basic idea is easy enough. I just make a Multipower with HKA and No Range Energy Blast and then add "Must Coincide With A Successfully Blocked Killing Attack (Normal Attack for the EB slot) (-1/2)" and "DCs Used Cannot Exceed Those In Attack Blocked (-1/2? -1/4?)" to each one.

 

Variable Special Effects (any Blocked HTH attack; +1/4) is also a must.

 

The problems are: No matter how many dice of effect I buy, there's no guarantee they'll be enough to match the attack I'm supposed to be reflecting. Missile Reflection doesn't have this problem. I can deflect an xd6 Energy Blast no problem if I make my roll and it will deal xd6 damage no matter what. If I put 10d6 of EB in my melee reflecting Power, a 20d6 reflected punch is going to do 10d6 damage max. This is lame and not consistant with the benefit from Missile Reflection.

 

Secondly, there's no real way to guarantee I'll be able to use all the Advantages of the incoming attack when it's reflected to a new target. Variable Advantage just doesn't work here. A simple Armor Piercing attack might be okay, but what about an Armor Piercing, Penetrating, NND, Does BODY? What what if I but it at the 1/2 level, but I only need 1/4 or 3/4 for a particular attack? Variable Advantage is just a bust here. Unless I buy it so many times that it adds something like +10 to the Power all by itself...

 

And even if I could do this, it seems like I'd invariably end up with a Power that cost many times what Missile Deflection/Reflection does and provides no more real benefit.

 

Aarg! Why this dumb prohibition in the rules on not allowing Melee Deflection?

 

EDIT: I have considered VPPs, but a huge Cosmic VPP is just as hellishly expensive relative to Missile Deflection/Reflection and there's still no guarantee I'll have enough points at my disposal to perfectly simulate reflecting any attack (good luck bouncing the HTH equivilent of a Destroyer Beam, for example).

[Agent Escafarc]

Try Stretching, Usable as Attack, you only need a few inches to turn a melee attack back apon a target (my character also has the not through intervening space because her SF/X is teleporting gates)

[Yamo]

Try Stretching, Usable as Attack, you only need a few inches to turn a melee attack back apon a target (my character also has the not through intervening space because her SF/X is teleporting gates)

 

That MIGHT work, but...

 

a) I'm not sure if you can use Stretching to effectively force a character to attack.

 

This would be an attack action. I want something like Missile Reflection that can be Aborted to to redirect HTH attacks.

[Agent Escafarc]

a) If you can use Flight,UAA to send a character into another character or wall why not this.

 

I ran into this too, I ended up puting it in a Damage Shield with a requires a Block roll limitation.

[Agent Escafarc]

BTW you can abort to Missle Deflection but not Reflection.

[Yamo]

BTW you can abort to Missle Deflection but not Reflection.

 

Yeah. Brain fart there.

[Ndreare]

As a game master I would consider it a viable option to allow the character to buy Missle Deflection and ad a +0 Modifier “Meleeâ€. I think this is an interesting topic I have not put much thought in to before. Although I have worked with the martial maneuver “Reversalâ€. That was easy as I used predefined abilities from the book.

 

 

P.S.: I wonder if Steve has time to reply to this with an idea of his or to put an answer in “Herophiles†in the next DH. As lowly gamers I imagine if we ask him he may respond so I will ask.

[Vondy]

As a GM I would allow a player to purchase missile deflection-reflection defined as melee deflection-reflection at a +0 modifier. The fundamental mechanic is the same as the block maneuver and the additional cost is such that the additional abilities this construct would allow are well paid for.

[Agent Escafarc]

Originally posted by D-Man

As a GM I would allow a player to purchase missile deflection-reflection defined as melee deflection-reflection at a +0 modifier. The fundamental mechanic is the same as the block maneuver and the additional cost is such that the additional abilities this construct would allow are well paid for.

I like this! But to make sure I'm on the same page this would be a "Melee" only MD/R and to do both Ranged and HtH would require buying MD/R twice?

 

Now to see if my GM will allow it (of course if he doesn't I still have the stretching method:D )

[Lord Liaden]

I would favor D-Man's construct myself; if the cost for "Melee Reflection" were the same as for Missile Reflection, I can't see how it would be unbalancing. Mind you, I think you'd have to consider what types of HTH attacks could be Reflected based on the SFX of the attack. It probably wouldn't make sense to Reflect a Grab, for example, or a NND Nerve Strike which has to target a specific point on the victim's body.

 

I suspect that the lack of a Melee Reflection option may have to do with a dearth of source material displaying this kind of effect, as opposed to turning aside thrown projectiles, bullets etc. Out of curiousity, Yamo, what is the SFX of this ability?

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Agent Escafarc

I like this! But to make sure I'm on the same page this would be a "Melee" only MD/R and to do both Ranged and HtH would require buying MD/R twice?

 

Now to see if my GM will allow it (of course if he doesn't I still have the stretching method:D )

 

Yes - it would be melee only. You would either have to buy the ranged deflection-reflection separately or double the power's cost for it to be correctly priced in terms of effect.

[Yamo]

Out of curiousity, Yamo, what is the SFX of this ability?

 

Powerful telekinesis that redirects incoming blows in a direction of the character's choosing.

 

And since there doesn't seem to by any other legal way to do it right, and I loathe house rules of any kind, I'm just going to cheese out and use a lame kludge:

 

Telekinetic Melee Reflection: Extra-Dimensional Movement (any location in the otherwise-identical alternate dimension where a successfully-Blocked HTH attack aimed at the character this Phase was redirected to something else of the character's choice within its range instead, requiring that a new attack roll be made for it using the character's OCV), Trigger (successful Blocking of the HTH attack in question with intent to apply this Power; +1/4), Invisible Power Effects (special effects fully invisible; +1/2) (44 Active Points), Total Cost: 44 points

 

Haha!

[Lord Liaden]

The effect resembling this that you most often see in the source material is when someone punches an opponent who has really tough skin or armor, and hurts his hand or other appendage. One inexpensive way to simulate that is to use the old "Self-Inflicted Damage" rule; you could read about that here:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3538&highlight=selfinflicted

[Snarf]

Originally posted by Yamo

Telekinetic Melee Reflection: Extra-Dimensional Movement (any location in the otherwise-identical alternate dimension where a successfully-Blocked HTH attack aimed at the character this Phase was redirected to something else of the character's choice within its range instead, requiring that a new attack roll be made for it using the character's OCV), Trigger (successful Blocking of the HTH attack in question with intent to apply this Power; +1/4), Invisible Power Effects (special effects fully invisible; +1/2) (44 Active Points), Total Cost: 44 points

 

Haha!

I've been seeing a couple things like this lately and it's kind of bothered me. Your ability sounds balanced, but if that's allowable, what stops people from making constructions like this:

 

I Kick All Your Asses: EDM (to the dimension where I just kicked everyone's ass ... and I have a bag of money) (AP 20)

[Chris Goodwin]

I'm with D-Man, Escafarc, and Liaden. What's worth more, the house-rule-less integrity of the system, or getting what you want from a system that is supposed to give you what you want?

[Agent X]

Another Special Effect use for Melee Deflection/Reflection is the ability to absorb the energy of your opponent's attack and redirect it back at them. There are some problems with Melee Deflection/Reflection thatmay need to be addressed differently than Missile Deflection/Reflection:

What if the player wants to be able to deflect/reflect at a distance? It probably would work the same as Missile Deflection/Reflection.

 

What if the player wants to be able to reflect a melee attack, not back to someone in melee range but as a ranged reflected attack!? This one should be pretty expensive.

 

Watch out for Ultimate Nemesis, the character with both Missile Deflection/Reflection and Melee Deflection/Reflection that can channel the attacks to virtually any target.

[Farkling]

And I personally don't see any problem with a damage shield requiring a block roll...just define the SFX as "as the the incoming attack" ... it also cannot exceed the actual dice in the attack. A two slot MP to cover the HKA vs. the HA. Ditching the power advantages is safe, it simulates a lack of "control" over the niceties of the reflected attack. Alternatively increase the MP slots to include the common effects.

 

The VPP limited to "only to duplicate/refelct hand to hand attacks" "requires successful block roll" is also viable.

 

Consider also, as the rules are "written" I think you would still require a ACTUAL deflection/reflection of no range energy attacks...but this is open to GM interpretation of how they wish missile delflection to be designed.

 

And the rest of you brains...what about a TK damage shield to "deflect melee attacks" ... how would that operate?

[Yamo]

And I personally don't see any problem with a damage shield requiring a block roll...just define the SFX as "as the the incoming attack" ... it also cannot exceed the actual dice in the attack. A two slot MP to cover the HKA vs. the HA. Ditching the power advantages is safe, it simulates a lack of "control" over the niceties of the reflected attack. Alternatively increase the MP slots to include the common effects.

 

The VPP limited to "only to duplicate/refelct hand to hand attacks" "requires successful block roll" is also viable.

 

First post in this thread details the various reasons that nether of these options are really viable.

 

And the rest of you brains...what about a TK damage shield to "deflect melee attacks" ... how would that operate?

 

Good question. I have absolutely no idea.

[Osprey]

Originally posted by Yamo

First post in this thread details the various reasons that nether of these options are really viable.

 

I don't see how ( I read it again)

 

I think the VPP is the only way to duplicate (and therefore SFX reflect) any possible melee attack

[Yamo]

I think the VPP is the only way to duplicate (and therefore SFX reflect) any possible melee attack

 

The problem is: The attack might be too "big" for the Pool to duplicate. A character with Missile Reflection can reflect ANY attack of the appropriate type, no matter how many Active (or Real) Points it is.

 

A secondary problem is that Cosmic VPPs of sufficient size to mirror even most attacks are vastly more expensive (low triple digit costs minimally) relative to Missile Reflection, but provide no more benefit. This is undesirable from a balance perspective. A PC in most games that could easily afford Missile Reflection either could not afford this ability, or could afford nothing else and would be an overall weak "one-trick pony" of a character.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Yamo

The problem is: The attack might be too "big" for the Pool to duplicate. A character with Missile Reflection can reflect ANY attack of the appropriate type, no matter how many Active (or Real) Points it is.

 

A secondary problem is that Cosmic VPPs of sufficient size to mirror even most attacks are vastly more expensive (low triple digit costs minimally) relative to Missile Reflection, but provide no more benefit. This is undesirable from a balance perspective. A PC in most games that could easily afford Missile Reflection either could not afford this ability, or could afford nothing else and would be an overall weak "one-trick pony" of a character.

Okay, I've thought about this:

 

For 102 Points you can have a character who can reflect virtually any attack except area attacks. For that you would probably need a suppression field against the advantage area affect.

 

I looked up the active points of the BIG GUYS like Dr. Destroyer, Menton, and Takofanes. They went up to 150 active points. This character could handle that.

 

62 Points (140 active points)

+1/4 Naked Modifier: Range Based on Strength: up to 160 Active Points : Damage Shield (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Usable As Attack (+1) (160 Active Points); Limited Power Must be aware of attack (-1/2), Limited Power Only ranged versus initial target in melee combat (-1/2), Limited Range: Special (-1/4)

 

40 Points

Missile Reflection, any Ranged Attack

 

So Range based on strength is forced onto the melee combatants attack which means that simultaneously the character can choose to reflect the attack using their missile reflection. This is accomplished with the usable against other and the damage shield.

 

The first limitation reflects the fact that the power operates very much like missile deflection/reflection so the character needs to know the attack is coming.

 

The second limitation indicates that the effect of the usable against others doesn't make the attacker's melee attacks effectively ranged for anyone else.

 

The third limitation's limited range is simple. It is limited to one hex.

 

I don't think you should have to buy reduced endurance because the naked power advantage is meant to augment a power that doesn't cost endurance. If you think it should, the power would have a real cost of 71 points and be 160 active points.

 

So, a power meant to duplicate the effects of missile reflection for melee attacks only costs 61 points with missile reflection active available as well.

 

Just thinking outside the box.

 

I think I will post this in the Hero Rules section to see what Mr. Long thinks!

[Hitchhiker]

I'm with you, Agent. Your solution seems the most clear and straightforward to me. Expensive, but that's what you've got to expect from a power like this. The only tricky part is the "up to 160 points"-limit, although I don't think that anyone is using a HTH attack with more than 160 points...

 

To see if it really works, you should try it out in a fictious situation.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hitchhiker

I'm with you, Agent. Your solution seems the most clear and straightforward to me. Expensive, but that's what you've got to expect from a power like this. The only tricky part is the "up to 160 points"-limit, although I don't think that anyone is using a HTH attack with more than 160 points...

 

To see if it really works, you should try it out in a fictious situation.

Cool! The problem I saw with it is calculating the active points when someone is stacking a martial maneuver with hand to hand attack and strength. Do they add individually? Are they considered separately? Given the cost and the fact that it is a damage shield, I would be nice and consider them separately. I have posted this one to Steve Long so we will see what he has to say, if he will make a commitment more than, "that's one way to do it."

 

I could play-test against Grond, I suppose.

[Lord Liaden]

I was looking recently at Scott Bennie's adventure "Stars of Blood" in DC #5, and I noticed that one character had an "anti-Entangle" Power bought as a Damage Shield without Continuous, to reflect that it only works Instantly to destroy the Entangle surrounding that character. I'm thinking that if we were to use a Damage Shield construct as the basis for a legal Damage Reflection ability, since you'd only be reflecting one attack at a time, there wouldn't necessarily be a need to make that Continuous, either.

 

Here's what I propose: the character buys the +1/2 Damage Shield as a Naked Advantage applying to any HTH attack, up to the Active Points of whatever size attack he wants to reflect (including Advantages). To that he applys Usable on Others as an Attack (+1), so that it can be affect any HTH damage used by an attacker, converting it into an instant Damage Shield surrounding the defender. Essentially the Active Points of this ability will equal the Active Points of the attack that the character intends to reflect. To this you apply a Limitation, "Others only," which I'd peg at -1/2 based on the same Lim for Aid.

 

Now a Power UOO as an Attack requires a successful Attack Roll, but since the Block Maneuver is itself an Attack Roll, I see no reason why this Power couldn't be defined as functioning on a successful Block. Since you're just switching the Block for a normal attack, and the Damage Shield should be assumed to "go of" at the same time as the Block (like a Compound Power), I'd define this as a 0 Advantage/Limitation for the DS.

 

So, a character with this Power construct makes a successful Block negating the attacker's damage. At that moment the DS Advantage "kicks in", giving the defender a Damage Shield based on the attack. Assuming that the SFX of the Block Maneuver involves physical contact with the attacker, that attacker would take damage from the DS equal to his own attack. Since the DS would be Instant in this case, it would only affect the attacker who was Blocked on this occasion.

 

Okay, I've probably missed something, so feel free to take this apart.

[Farkling]

Option B !! Option B !!

 

Seriously, it is much simpler and less, um, rules manipulative than forcing the range and reflecting.

 

After re-reading the Deflection/Reflection rules, I'm pretty sure that "forcing the range" may work mechanically.

 

But for forcing the rules into it, either will work...

However, I find they both hinge on "with the GM's permission" for the naked power advantage, and the usable against others.

 

Isn't it simply easier to add one more power to the book that acts as Missile Deflection/Reflection with hand to hand attacks? We know comic justification for it exists...Magneto is a good example of power deflected (metal) melee attacks.

But can he reflect them?

 

The damage shield is the CLOSEST special effect for this by my information, since it DOES damage to HtH attackers. But it still has to be saddled with a Variable Advvantage to cover everything as a reflection, and needs to exceed most active point limits set for a campaign. At least you don't need defenses, since if you block the attack, it doesn't do damage.

 

The damage shield effect could theoretically bounce some damage from AE HtH attacks also though, unless limited. Though I suppose that is nitpicking, since the AE HtH attack may not actually cause the wielder to "contact" the victim, depending on SE. Hmmm....that would be a flaw with the damage shield construct also...if a focus hits the target, doesn't the focus take the damaage?

Swordguy: "I hit him with my sword"

Blocker: "I reflect the attack back at him" (makes roll)

GM: "Swordguy's sword shatters as you complete the manuever"

 

Maybe the forced range IS the beast substitute. Waht would the additional limitation be for "only to Reflect attacks Range can be added/forced onto" ?? That would then be HtH only, using that construct.

 

And as to the martial arts, I believe it says in a book somewhere that TK with Fine Manipulation can use martial manuevers, so the precedent has been set that to give range to the martial manuevers you merely need to have access to ranged strength...so it would be relatively easy to use on most martial artists. That same justification covers stretchy martial artists too...so would it cover Street Fighter style CHI punches? Those are usually bought as TK or EB are they not? Possibly this needs more consideration. Maybe Missile Reflection is too powerful and shoul dbe toned down? Or does it need seperate adders for application to "melee" strikes of various kinds?

 

I think I'm debating for the sake of debate at this point. I'm going to take a nap.