gewing Posted July 4, 2003 Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 DOC SAVAGE! Has anyone written him up? just feeling sentimental for 5th and 6th grade, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 4, 2003 Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 Certainly most people consider Doc Savage to be inspirational for Superman (upgrading from "Man of Bronze" to "Man of Steel" for one thing), but a more direct predecessor is likely Hugo Danner, the protagonist of Philip Wylie's classic novel The Gladiator. The type and magnitude of abilities that that character displays are much closer to those of the early Superman. Mind you, Superman fits solidly in the tradition of other great heroic strongmen of myth and legend - Hercules, Sampson, Siegfried etc. Supes' whole background draws on mythic archetypes common to many cultures: last scion of a noble line, sent away to escape their destruction, raised unaware of his true identity, grows to be the champion of his people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted July 4, 2003 Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 Actually he's a Moses/David rip-off. Sigel said in an interview that he and Shuster took a lot of the inspiration for Big Blue from the Midrashim, which have some wild stories about various biblical characters in them, especially Moses, who is attributed the ability to run at miraculous speeds, jump over mountains, grow as tall as giants and hurl boulders. Lets not even get into the alien from another place who hides his identity while secretly studying the wisdom of his people in the fortress of solitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Scrivner Posted July 5, 2003 Report Share Posted July 5, 2003 There was a Doc Savage/Superman team-up comic way back when. I don't remember Doc berating Supes for stealing his schtick. D-Man is correct that the creators of Superman looked to their Jewish roots for inspiration. They wanted to create a deliverer as strong as the biblical Sampson, as smart as Sherlock Holmes, the kind of guy who was the best at everything like Doc Savage. Things kind of snowballed from there. Originally, Superman was the "Man of Tomorrow" or "The Action Ace" but the writers tried various appellations and "Man of Steel" stuck. Kal-El went Sampson one better. Sampson loses his strength if his hair is cut; Superman's hair CAN'T be cut except for his own heat-ray vision. I think the writers gave a nod to Sampson after the "Death of Superman" saga when Superman had long hair for a while. They dropped it because it made the whole secret identity thing more difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted July 5, 2003 Report Share Posted July 5, 2003 Back around 1950, give or take 5 years, there was a Superman vs. Captain Marvel battle. The "Shazam!" guy, not the later Marvel Comics Kree Warrior guy. It wasn't fought in the comics, it was fought in court. The publishers of Superman at the time (dunno if they were called DC comics yet) accused Fawcett of ripping off Supes to create Captain Marvel. The prosecution argued that Superman did it all before CM, while the defense argued that Superman was predated by Popeye and Hercules. The case was settled out of court, and Fawcett dropped CM. IIRC, this was at a time when comic sales were dropping anyway. The foregoing is all from memory: I read about this in All in Color for a Dime, a book about comics that came out c. 1975. The book was mostly reminiscences about the Golden Age, with only a few pages devoted to the Silver Age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted July 5, 2003 Report Share Posted July 5, 2003 I always felt that supes was a rip-off of John Carter of Mars...alien champion...lots o' powers 'cause the gravity is so low...etc...even has the hots for aliens that somehow are just like the girls back home... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superskrull Posted July 6, 2003 Report Share Posted July 6, 2003 I don't see him as a ripoff of anything. Sure, he's a rich meaty blend of fantastic elements from foklore, religion and science fiction, but he's always seemed more noble than a mere ripoff. He's a hero. It's how his creators designed him. He was made in order to save his creators from poverty and obscurity and he kept them fed for years, regardless of later corporate difficulties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted July 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2003 I ws just using that as an intro to what reminded me of one of my favorite characters. Tom strong is another Doc- homage, imo Originally posted by Superskrull I don't see him as a ripoff of anything. Sure, he's a rich meaty blend of fantastic elements from foklore, religion and science fiction, but he's always seemed more noble than a mere ripoff. He's a hero. It's how his creators designed him. He was made in order to save his creators from poverty and obscurity and he kept them fed for years, regardless of later corporate difficulties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted July 7, 2003 Report Share Posted July 7, 2003 Slight plug: Just posted the animated Superman on the building the JL thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterVimes Posted July 7, 2003 Report Share Posted July 7, 2003 And let's not forget Hugo Danner who was super-strong, bullet-proof and could super-leap a good 8 years before Clark Kent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted July 7, 2003 Report Share Posted July 7, 2003 Originally posted by MisterVimes And let's not forget Hugo Danner who was super-strong, bullet-proof and could super-leap a good 8 years before Clark Kent. Has anyone here read the novel Gladiator ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted July 7, 2003 Report Share Posted July 7, 2003 I have, Far from great, but fun in an escapism sort of way. The character was a horn dog, and wound up in a war... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted July 7, 2003 Report Share Posted July 7, 2003 Originally posted by JmOz I have, Far from great, but fun in an escapism sort of way. The character was a horn dog, and wound up in a war... Thanks for the info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 7, 2003 Report Share Posted July 7, 2003 I would say that "horn dog" is a little harsh. The book does have a streak of misogyny which I find distasteful, and some of the cultural references are quite dated (the war that Hugo Danner fought in was WW I!). Still, this is the most thoughtful serious study I've yet seen of what it would be like to be born vastly physically superior to everyone else in the world. Some of the themes that the book raises have been reflected in modern issues of Superman's comic book: the temptations of power, the responsibility, fear and jealousy of normal people toward the superhuman, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted July 7, 2003 Report Share Posted July 7, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Liaden I would say that "horn dog" is a little harsh. The book does have a streak of misogyny which I find distasteful, and some of the cultural That is an extremely common reaction from anybody who is a accepted member of modern society when reading literature that old. Today's culture is extremely feminized, and males are depicted as pathetic, stupid, and weak most of the time. Watch commercials on TV and make a list sometime. See how many times the man is shown as clueless, while a woman shows up with all the answers. Decades ago, men were men. Women pushed for equality, which was great, but now the balance is tipped the other way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterVimes Posted July 7, 2003 Report Share Posted July 7, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X Has anyone here read the novel Gladiator ? It was about what you'd expect. Very Burroughs/Howard, the thinking was very much in line with the period (1930) and was your basic Spicy Adventure Story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 7, 2003 Report Share Posted July 7, 2003 Where are people getting "horn dog" and "spicey" from in The Gladiator? Hugo Danner was romantically involved with a grand total of two women in the entire book, and their intimacy was never more than alluded to. Certainly cultural mores are different for different eras - that's why I called them "dated" rather than "wrong". I do think that the book is somewhat misogynistic because the three prominent female characters are shown with few positive qualities (Hugo's mother is a cold hard-line religious fundamentalist, one of his girlfriends considers him a monster when she learns of his power, while the other is looking out for herself first), and the writing strongly implies that this is the sort of behavior men should expect from women. That attitude may have been common in literature in 1930, but far from universal. IMHO the positives in The Gladiator still outweigh the negatives. I will now shut up about this before I start ranting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted July 7, 2003 Report Share Posted July 7, 2003 I've caught quite a few negative characterizations of women in the early sci-fi. They are often portrayed as cruel, materialistic, opportunistic, clinging, etc. Makes you wonder if all the Sci-Fi writers back then were still living with their mother when they wrote these books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterVimes Posted July 7, 2003 Report Share Posted July 7, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X I've caught quite a few negative characterizations of women in the early sci-fi. They are often portrayed as cruel, materialistic, opportunistic, clinging, etc. Makes you wonder if all the Sci-Fi writers back then were still living with their mother when they wrote these books. Well... in Bob Howard's case... that was true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted July 7, 2003 Report Share Posted July 7, 2003 Originally posted by MisterVimes Well... in Bob Howard's case... that was true. I was actually thinking of him when I wrote that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterVimes Posted July 7, 2003 Report Share Posted July 7, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X I was actually thinking of him when I wrote that. I kinda had a feeling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted July 7, 2003 Report Share Posted July 7, 2003 Originally posted by MisterVimes I kinda had a feeling Am I that transparent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted July 7, 2003 Report Share Posted July 7, 2003 Originally posted by Arthur That is an extremely common reaction from anybody who is a accepted member of modern society when reading literature that old. Today's culture is extremely feminized, and males are depicted as pathetic, stupid, and weak most of the time. Watch commercials on TV and make a list sometime. See how many times the man is shown as clueless, while a woman shows up with all the answers. Decades ago, men were men. Women pushed for equality, which was great, but now the balance is tipped the other way. I think the best of example of this is an insurance commercial -- I *think* for Progressive, ironically enough. In it a woman finds a Voodoo site that allows her to inflict punishment on a cheating boyfriend. Before it was censored, it including putting a nutcracker to his... sensitive area. Even censored, it's noticeable. You would NEVER see this commercial with the roles reversed. And the "pro guy" commercial they released? Shows a loser that turns his messed-up apartment into a disco den (a *disco den*?) and his ugly roommate into a cheerleader. In other words, it's just as anti-male as the earlier one, just in non-physical ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superskrull Posted July 7, 2003 Report Share Posted July 7, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X Has anyone here read the novel Gladiator ? Yeah. Once Roy Thomas mentioned it in Young All-Stars, I managed to track it down. Hugo and Clark certainly share many physical traits, though Clark is blessed with several things Hugo didn't have. The biggest single difference is a purpose in life. Superman has fantastic power, a strong moral code and enemies to vie against. Hugo's power was something holding him apart from everyone. The best time for him was when he operated as 'Le Colorado' saving lives and crushing the Germans during WWI. Both before and after, he was held apart as a man of steel in a flesh and blood world. Superman was veiwed as a hero. Hugo saw himself as a freak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Escafarc Posted July 7, 2003 Report Share Posted July 7, 2003 Originally posted by MisterVimes And let's not forget Hugo Danner who was super-strong, bullet-proof and could super-leap a good 8 years before Clark Kent. OT DC had Hugo's son replace Superman in the All-Star Squadron/JSA(Young All-Stars) post-Crisis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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