Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

[Checkmate]

I was just reading my copy of Champions Universe again, and I found this statement in the All-American's write up (last sentence on page 38:

Jack Tiptree is typical of the All-Americans in most respects, and thus has 20s in his STR, INT, and other Primary Characteristics (making him about four times as strong, agile, smart and charming as the average person).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

Wow. Well, that explains a lot.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

I'm sure this was referenced somewhere in prior editions, but have never been able to locate the quote. That would seem to make it official for 5e, however.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

Actually, that specific passage was referenced in Zornwil's recent thread on this very subject. This post. The mathematical incorrectness of the assumption is also pointed out.

 

Keith "careful reader" Curtis

[Checkmate]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

I hadn't realized it was pointed out in that thread, but figured even if it was it was 8 pages long, who would find it in there?

 

If by "mathematical incorrectness" you mean a 15 DEX isn't twice as likely to hit as a 10 DEX, my response would be "So what".

 

If you remember the DC Heroes game by Mayflower (which I'm sure is also referenced in that thread) a person with a 2 INT was two times as intelligent as someone with with a 1 INT. This was explicitly stated in the rules. It wasn't twice as effective either, but the two don't have to be tied together. By saying that you're just giving a "real world" way to measure that has nothing to do with game mechanics.

[OzMike]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

*snip* If you remember the DC Heroes game by Mayflower (which I'm sure is also referenced in that thread) *snip*

 

Umm... Mayfair. Not Mayflower. Unless it was a dig. In which case Mayflower it is.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

I remember reading DC Heroes and thinking "just like Hero, except divided by 5".

 

As to the "it's not twice as good in game" argument, there is such a thing as the law of diminishing returns.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

I hadn't realized it was pointed out in that thread, but figured even if it was it was 8 pages long, who would find it in there?

 

If by "mathematical incorrectness" you mean a 15 DEX isn't twice as likely to hit as a 10 DEX, my response would be "So what".

 

No, if you had read the post, you would know what I mean. An "average" person, by book definition, has 8's in the primary characteristics, making All-American 5.27x better. Mathematical curiosity.

 

The post was referenced several times within the thread. I merely wanted to point out that this new thread, which was referencing the old thread to "reveal" new information, was in fact, covering old ground. Not trying to rain on your parade or anything, just trying to reduce noise to signal.

 

Keith "but please continue" Curtis

[Checkmate]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

OzMike,

Yes I meant Mayfair...Was pretty sure it wasn't Mayflower, but couldn't remember the real name and figured people would know what I was talking about.

 

Keith,

Well I gotta be honest ya did do a little raining . I was all excited thinking that I was finally vindicated (the thread you linked was started due to a statment I made Here). After going back and reading it just now I did notice however that even though it was brought up, it was generally ignored by almost everyone in that thread. Even after that post people were still saying that +5 doubles isn't said anywhere. So I guess it couldn't hurt to bring it up again.

 

As far as 5.27x vice 4x, it does say about 4x

[keithcurtis]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

accepted.

 

Keith "sorry for the rain" Curtis

[Mister E]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

I wonder who actually wrote this bit of CU... Steve Long or Darren Watts? This should have little effect on the greater toolkitting aspect of the game (for those who don't like the idea); but obviously in someone's mind, this is a pseudo-inherent design philosophy standard.

 

Good sleuthing. This level of rules-lawyering is quite impressive.

[Kirby]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

As far as 5.27x vice 4x' date=' it does say [b']about[/b] 4x

Bah! In estimation, the 4 would be rounded down to 0 and the 5.27 would be rounded up to 10. And if rounding to the nearest whole number, 4 would be 4 and 5.27 would be 5, so there!

 

OK, sorry, I really don't have anything of substance to add here but had this hiccup of humor come on.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

Umm... I guess I've missed a larger discussion, but has there really been any question of where the notion that +5 points = 2x power came from? It comes from STR, Energy Blast, and (to a lesser extent) Growth.

 

+5 STR lets you lift 2x weight. Therefore +5 STR = 2x as strong.

 

Each doubling of mass (as shown in Growth and as noted on 5ER page 447) gives you +1 BODY. 1d6 of Energy Blast does (on average) 1 BODY. Therefore, adding 1d6 of Energy Blast (5 points) doubles the "power" of the blast (it doubles the amount of mass it typically destroys).

 

I guess it isn't explictly spelled out elsewhere that things like INT and PRE are also subject to the "+5 doubles it" metarule, but the metarule has been around from the beginning.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

Umm... I guess I've missed a larger discussion, but has there really been any question of where the notion that +5 points = 2x power came from? It comes from STR, Energy Blast, and (to a lesser extent) Growth.

 

...

 

I guess it isn't explictly spelled out elsewhere that things like INT and PRE are also subject to the "+5 doubles it" metarule, but the metarule has been around from the beginning.

 

That was the essence of the discussion. There's a general impression that such things do carry through to INT, PRE and such, and Zornwil's previous thread was an attempt to track down where that impression came from and whether there is any validity or applicability to it. There were some interesting observations and conclusions.

 

Keith "Once you sift through the dross" Curtis

[ghost-angel]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

OzMike,

Yes I meant Mayfair...Was pretty sure it wasn't Mayflower, but couldn't remember the real name and figured people would know what I was talking about.

 

Keith,

Well I gotta be honest ya did do a little raining . I was all excited thinking that I was finally vindicated (the thread you linked was started due to a statment I made Here). After going back and reading it just now I did notice however that even though it was brought up, it was generally ignored by almost everyone in that thread. Even after that post people were still saying that +5 doubles isn't said anywhere. So I guess it couldn't hurt to bring it up again.

 

As far as 5.27x vice 4x, it does say about 4x

 

It's STILL not said anywhere but with STR, or EB.

 

It may be strongly IMPLIED, in a vague "about this many" kind of way. But that's hardly explicite. Now is it.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

I remember reading DC Heroes and thinking "just like Hero, except divided by 5".

 

As to the "it's not twice as good in game" argument, there is such a thing as the law of diminishing returns.

 

That's a dirty lie, and you know it. EVERYONE knows that it's 100% mathematically accurate that if Hercules is racing a Turtle, and the Turtle starts off half way there, then Hercules can never catch up!!

 

So... HAH!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

That's a dirty lie, and you know it. EVERYONE knows that it's 100% mathematically accurate that if Hercules is racing a Turtle, and the Turtle starts off half way there, then Hercules can never catch up!!

 

So... HAH!

 

It's also 100% mathematically accurate that .9999... = 1.

 

Logic still wins.

 

As my wife regularly points out to me.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

PFF.

 

Logic.

 

What do you think this is? HERO?

[archermoo]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

It's also 100% mathematically accurate that .9999... = 1.

 

Logic still wins.

 

As my wife regularly points out to me.

 

I suppose that all depends on what you mean. 0.99999... and 1 are indeed mathematically identical. But then again there is a fair amount of math that is not on the face of things logical.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

Each doubling of mass (as shown in Growth and as noted on 5ER page 447) gives you +1 BODY. 1d6 of Energy Blast does (on average) 1 BODY. Therefore' date=' adding 1d6 of Energy Blast (5 points) doubles the "power" of the blast (it doubles the amount of mass it typically destroys).[/quote']

 

Shouldn't 2 BOD then destroy the whole thing, if 1 BOD detroys half and another BOD doubles it? But then, BOD is a primary characteristic, so it should double with +5, shouldn't it? The damage system is where the "+5 = 2x" structure tends to break.

[Mister E]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

Shouldn't 2 BOD then destroy the whole thing' date=' if 1 BOD detroys half and another BOD doubles it? But then, BOD is a primary characteristic, so it should double with +5, shouldn't it? The damage system is where the "+5 = 2x" structure tends to break.[/quote']

 

1 BODY ~ 1 DC ~ 5 STR

 

Here's a link to my general take on BODY... but I wouldn't bother reading it.

 

Edit: Did some more back searching to find a post submitted a long time ago that I still think is rather nifty...

 

The simple fact that Hit Location has such a varied effect on the Damage taken by the Character, proves that BODY is a relative concept that is representative of the relationship composite structures have to each other on a multi-dimesional level.

 

For instance, if you do 10 points of BODY to your arm, your arm has taken 10 BODY, though you (the owner of the arm) will only take 5. With only one attack, both you and your arm were damaged, because your composition is dependant to a large extent on the composition of your arm. You could say as much for all of your hit locations. In fact, you are so dependant on your head, that any damage it takes is magnified in significance to you.

 

All of this is arbitrary, of course, being a game system: but I really like it.

 

If you were to shoot a bullet (with the Beam Limitation) at a wall, and deal enough damage to puncture it, the wall itself has received no measureable BODY damage, in the same way that the Earth received no BODY damage from the bullet. This is because of the break in dimension between the damage done by the bullet, and the structural integrity of the wall as well as that of the Earth. Without the Beam Limitation, the bullet would have blown a man-sized hole in the wall, but the Earth would still be fine.

 

It's all about dimension.

 

If we wanted to get really crazy (and we don't... or at least really shouldn't), we could apply this concept to the Transformation Power, which is basically all about destroying abstract attributes, without damaging the whole. For instance, if I were perminantly blinded by a nuclear flash, how much damage have I myself taken? Possibly a little, but for the sake of argument, lets say none. I would built the nuclear flash attack as a Transform. However, seeing as it is all a matter of dimension (that of the structural relationship between that of my eyes and me myself), you could conceavably build the nuclear flash attack as a Ranged Killing Attack, with a Beam-Like Limitation which targets that part of me that can see, and damages it as a distinct object whose arangement I myself am not dependant on, but whose BODY is the same as mine, of course, by association.

 

Conversly, if I wanted to actually take damage from the nuclear flash attack, I could treat my sight as a specific Hit Location, and receive some fraction of the damage done to my vision, as per how hit locations normally work.

 

The weird part of the HERO System definately has to be the leap of logic that the things a thing is composed of have the same BODY as the larger thing. For instance, that my arm has a BODY of 10 (or my vision has a BODY of 10) just because I have a BODY of 10. Or that you can put a bullet hole in a wall (with the Beam Limitation) with the same amount of damage that would be required to blow a man-sized hole in a wall (without the Beam Limitation).

 

This phenomenon isn't realistic, unless in fact all things have the same BODY (in theory), and things only really have varying amounts of BODY as relative to each other, or from some constant perspective. Like, I have 10 BODY, but you have 11 BODY because you are different, somehow. All parts of me have 10 BODY, and all parts of you have 11 BODY. ((I would like to add that I think it is silly that you have an 11 BODY, when I only have a 10)) In the "Fantastic Voyage" dimension of a tiny miniaturized submarine full of micronauts exploring my body, the things they find inside me should have BODYs unique to themselves, due to the shift in dimension. It is too much to ask that one of my macrophages (or all of my macrophages) should have the same BODY as me. It is equally silly to imagine that the death of one of my macrophages should harm me in any way.

 

Since I'm on the topic, the BODY of one of my macrophages is totally dependent on the scale of the perspective dimension. It could be 10, or 5, or 20, or 1000. The same could be said about the BODYs of the micronauts, or of my body's BODY.

 

Am I making any sense? I'm going to stop talking...

[Checkmate]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

It's STILL not said anywhere but with STR, or EB.

 

It may be strongly IMPLIED, in a vague "about this many" kind of way. But that's hardly explicite. Now is it.

Err, let me post my inital quote again, highlighting the EXPLICIT parts:

 

Jack Tiptree is typical of the All-Americans in most respects, and thus has 20s in his STR, INT, and other Primary Characteristics (making him about four times as strong, agile, smart and charming as the average person).

I'm not sure how much more spelled out it can possibly be.

[schir1964]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

Err, let me post my inital quote again, highlighting the EXPLICIT parts:

 

I'm not sure how much more spelled out it can possibly be.

I think he was referring to the core book. That it is not stated anywhere in the Hero 5th Edition or Hero 5th Edition Revised, but he didn't make that clear. And as someone else said, having it in the Champions Universe certainly makes it official for the 5th Edition. The previous thread was trying to track down where the concept originated from prior to 5th Edition.

 

Just A Clarification

 

- Christopher Mullins

[TaxiMan]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

It's also 100% mathematically accurate that .9999... = 1

 

Is not! There's not enough ink or paper in any textbook to print that first one. It's just stupid. I'll take my "1", thankyouverymuch!

 

(and if you argue, I'll say it's only 99.99...% mathematically accurate!)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Genesis of +5 = 2x power REVEALED

 

Err, let me post my inital quote again, highlighting the EXPLICIT parts:

 

I'm not sure how much more spelled out it can possibly be.

 

About (adverb): approximately.

 

Not. Explicite. Enough.

 

Just to be perfectly clear.

 

I think he was referring to the core book. That it is not stated anywhere in the Hero 5th Edition or Hero 5th Edition Revised, but he didn't make that clear. And as someone else said, having it in the Champions Universe certainly makes it official for the 5th Edition. The previous thread was trying to track down where the concept originated from prior to 5th Edition.

 

Just A Clarification

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Having it true for a Setting Book does not make it a core rule. But it's close.