Help with Find Weakness vs. Mental Defense

[TheRealVector]

Ok, I'm an idiot and can't find anything definite on this. I have a player who is interested so...

 

Question #1: Is Find Weakness against Mental Defense it allowed per the official rules?

 

Question #2: If so how does it work? Since Find Weakness is a sense how does one see "Mental Defense"? It has no visible effects, not even to mental sense. Or am I wrong about that? I assume a character can find weakness in a suit of armor, force field or an opponents body because he simply can see these things.

 

Question #3: If a mentalist can't "see" Mental Defense could the player buy a special sense, something like "analyze mental defenses" to set up using Find Weakness on Mental Defense?

 

Thanks

[Shaft]

Re: Help with Find Weakness vs. Mental Defense

 

As I see it, the Mental Awareness that every character with a Mental Power gets for free should be able to spot Mental Defense.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help with Find Weakness vs. Mental Defense

 

I think I might be inclined require BOECV to be added to Find Weakness working against Mental Defense. Maybe.

 

p174 of 5ER notes that Find Weakness working against an exotic defense such as Mental Defense is soley at GM discression.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with Find Weakness vs. Mental Defense

 

Since armour is not a visible power, how does one 'see' that?

 

If you are going to let in FW, then either think REALLY hard about it, or try not to think about it at all.

 

Oh, and mental awareness detects mental powers and, despite the misleading wording that implies it can detect mental defence, it can't as mental defence is not a mental power.

 

So, in answer to your questions:

 

1. Yes. At the GM's discretion.

2. It just does.

3. Yes. But you don't need to to be legal.

 

Sigh.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with Find Weakness vs. Mental Defense

 

Ok, I'm an idiot and can't find anything definite on this. I have a player who is interested so...

 

Question #1: Is Find Weakness against Mental Defense it allowed per the official rules?

 

Nothing prevents it, to my knowledge.

 

Question #2: If so how does it work? Since Find Weakness is a sense how does one see "Mental Defense"? It has no visible effects' date=' not even to mental sense. Or am I wrong about that? I assume a character can find weakness in a suit of armor, force field or an opponents body because he simply can see these things. [/quote']

 

"How it works" = SFX. Perhaps the character psychicly probes his target's mental resolve. Maybe it's pure intuition. That's for the player to decide.

 

Question #3: If a mentalist can't "see" Mental Defense could the player buy a special sense' date=' something like "analyze mental defenses" to set up using Find Weakness on Mental Defense?[/quote']

 

How do you "see" PD or ED, or any other defensive power. Mental defense is hardly unique in this respect. I suggest you "see" them because you purchased Find Weakness. The SFX are up to you.

[TheRealVector]

Re: Help with Find Weakness vs. Mental Defense

 

Since armour is not a visible power, how does one 'see' that?

 

If you are going to let in FW, then either think REALLY hard about it, or try not to think about it at all.

 

Oh, and mental awareness detects mental powers and, despite the misleading wording that implies it can detect mental defence, it can't as mental defence is not a mental power.

 

So, in answer to your questions:

 

1. Yes. At the GM's discretion.

2. It just does.

3. Yes. But you don't need to to be legal.

 

Sigh.

 

So were you traumatized by a player with Find Weakness? Sigh.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with Find Weakness vs. Mental Defense

 

So were you traumatized by a player with Find Weakness? Sigh.

 

I don't think Sean's not saying "don't use it". He is saying the "it's a sense" aspect doesn't make much sense for non-mental powers either, so if you're using FW, why chase the sensory issue.

 

Frankly, I'm curious why anyone would want FW for mental powers. Mental Defense isn't normally that common anyway. It's likely much more effective to just invest the points in more dice of the mental powers anyway. Anyone the GM wants to be invulnerable will have enough MD and/or LoW to frustrate the mentalist anyway.

[TheRealVector]

Re: Help with Find Weakness vs. Mental Defense

 

I don't think Sean's not saying "don't use it". He is saying the "it's a sense" aspect doesn't make much sense for non-mental powers either, so if you're using FW, why chase the sensory issue.

 

Frankly, I'm curious why anyone would want FW for mental powers. Mental Defense isn't normally that common anyway. It's likely much more effective to just invest the points in more dice of the mental powers anyway. Anyone the GM wants to be invulnerable will have enough MD and/or LoW to frustrate the mentalist anyway.

 

In our game Mental Defense is more common than in the standard Champions campaign. Also, this player is interested in designing a mentalist whose specialty is combating other mentalist.

[Silbeg]

Re: Help with Find Weakness vs. Mental Defense

 

In our game Mental Defense is more common than in the standard Champions campaign. Also' date=' this player is interested in designing a mentalist whose specialty is combating other mentalist.[/quote']

 

He could always make his mental attacks AP.

 

However, I agree that more dice would probably just be better.

 

After all, perhaps he could have

 

Mind Storm: 5d6 Ego Attack

More Effective Against Mentalists: +3d6 Ego Attack, Only Vs. Mentalists, 0END

 

You'd have to determine the rarety of mentalists in your game, but even if they were relatively common, I would go with -1/2 to -1.

 

The 0END lets him use it regardless of whether he knows his target is a mentalist or not. Note that 3d6 was chosen as a value that will cover the typical 10 Mental DEF

 

On the other hand, it may just be more effective to go:

 

Mind Storm: 5d6 Ego Attack, Armor Piercing.

In this case, it would cost less, and still be quite effective. Of course, the END cost would be higher.

 

Another possibility would be a succor/aid for all mental powers when fighting mentalists... with an appropriate limitation that the bonuses only work against mentalists.

 

A final possibillity would be to drain/transfer mentalist powers.

 

Example.

5d6 Ego Attack plus 2d6 Drain Mental DEF, BOECV (vs. Power DEF), Ranged, linked to Ego Attack

 

With this attack, the mentalist would be wearing down the target's defenses... So, he would become more effective with each attack.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Help with Find Weakness vs. Mental Defense

 

If Find Weakness is what feels right for the player to have for this character, I don't see anything wrong with using that rather than more dice or the Armor Piercing Advantage.

 

It's also worth noting that Find Weakness can continue to reduce Mental Defense as long as the player keeps rolling successfully, and can apply to several Mental Powers relatively cheaply; so if you're indeed designing an anti-mentalist mentalist it has something mechanically to recommend it.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Help with Find Weakness vs. Mental Defense

 

Don't forget, though, that they stack -- so he can Find Weakness while all the talking is going on (he "stares real hard" if he purchased it fully IPE) and then, when the fight starts, his AP Ego Strike shreds through MenDef like an Illithid through Gully Dwarves.

[TheRealVector]

Re: Help with Find Weakness vs. Mental Defense

 

I don't think Sean's not saying "don't use it". He is saying the "it's a sense" aspect doesn't make much sense for non-mental powers either, so if you're using FW, why chase the sensory issue.

 

Frankly, I'm curious why anyone would want FW for mental powers. Mental Defense isn't normally that common anyway. It's likely much more effective to just invest the points in more dice of the mental powers anyway. Anyone the GM wants to be invulnerable will have enough MD and/or LoW to frustrate the mentalist anyway.

 

I was wondering about the sensory issue because Find Weakness is listed on page #113 of the Hero System rulebook (don't own revised) as a "Special Power/Sensory Power". I'm content to ignore any special "sense" requirements for Find Weakness on Mental Defense, though.

[TheRealVector]

Re: Help with Find Weakness vs. Mental Defense

 

He could always make his mental attacks AP.

 

However, I agree that more dice would probably just be better.

 

After all, perhaps he could have

 

Mind Storm: 5d6 Ego Attack

More Effective Against Mentalists: +3d6 Ego Attack, Only Vs. Mentalists, 0END

 

You'd have to determine the rarity of mentalists in your game, but even if they were relatively common, I would go with -1/2 to -1.

 

The 0END lets him use it regardless of whether he knows his target is a mentalist or not. Note that 3d6 was chosen as a value that will cover the typical 10 Mental DEF

 

On the other hand, it may just be more effective to go:

 

Mind Storm: 5d6 Ego Attack, Armor Piercing.

In this case, it would cost less, and still be quite effective. Of course, the END cost would be higher.

 

Another possibility would be a succor/aid for all mental powers when fighting mentalists... with an appropriate limitation that the bonuses only work against mentalists.

 

A final possibility would be to drain/transfer mentalist powers.

 

Example.

5d6 Ego Attack plus 2d6 Drain Mental DEF, BOECV (vs. Power DEF), Ranged, linked to Ego Attack

 

With this attack, the mentalist would be wearing down the target's defenses... So, he would become more effective with each attack.

 

Thanks for all the great ideas. The player in question is the sort that really likes to pursue an idea once it's in his head. He would like to go the Find Weakness route and see how effective that is.

 

I've informed him of other options but I don't see that it is necessarily my role to drive him in one direction. As long as it's all legal, logical, doesn't interfere on other player's schticks, and balanced in the context of my game world, of course.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with Find Weakness vs. Mental Defense

 

It's a sensory power because it is sensing something. I don't think you can take it further than that without it breaking down.

 

As Hugh says, I'm not saying 'don't use it' - as Lord Laiden points out 'if it feels right...'

 

What I would say though is have the player define quite closely what it is doing, and have the build as logical as possible. I think that the power can work well, but do be a little wary of it as a GM: a few lucky rolls and your mega-villain is a drooling idiot, and an evening's entertainment needs to be hastily re-jigged.

 

I don't think it is unreasonable to look at the cost of the mental power+Find Weakness when considering the AP of the power.

 

Don't forget Lack of Weakness can apply to mental Find Weakness....

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with Find Weakness vs. Mental Defense

 

Find Weakness doesn't provide any information on what kind of defenses the target has. This is true regarding all types of defenses. Find Weakness vs. "Resistant Defenses" will not itself provide the user any information to tell whether a target has Armor, Damage Resistance, Force Field or no extra defenses besides base figured PD + ED at all. The FiWe user might be able to make a PER roll to notice how much damage was actually done to judge the effectiveness of FiWe.

 

So FiWe vs. Mental Defense is not going to tell the owner of FiWe if the target actually has Mental Defense. It's just a countermeasure vs. a possible defense.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Help with Find Weakness vs. Mental Defense

 

I don't think it is unreasonable to look at the cost of the mental power+Find Weakness when considering the AP of the power.

 

When I use Active Point or Damage Class restrictions for characters in my campaign, I usually treat Find Weakness as equivalent to the Armor Piercing Advantage in terms of what it adds to the Attack Powers it applies to.

[Silbeg]

Re: Help with Find Weakness vs. Mental Defense

 

When I use Active Point or Damage Class restrictions for characters in my campaign' date=' I usually treat Find Weakness as equivalent to the Armor Piercing Advantage in terms of what it adds to the Attack Powers it applies to.[/quote']

 

That is basically how I treat it... not quite exact, but on average it should be "good enough".

 

Thanks for all the great ideas. The player in question is the sort that really likes to pursue an idea once it's in his head. He would like to go the Find Weakness route and see how effective that is.

 

I've informed him of other options but I don't see that it is necessarily my role to drive him in one direction. As long as it's all legal, logical, doesn't interfere on other player's schticks, and balanced in the context of my game world, of course.

 

Well, it is definitely book legal... even discussed in The Ultimate Mentalist. I would pay close attention to this in game... also, occassionally, he should face a target that has Lack of Weakness for Mental DEF (also discussed in TUM).

 

However, remember that it is your game. If you aren't comfortable with the power, just let the player know.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Help with Find Weakness vs. Mental Defense

 

It was quite a few years ago, but IIRC I gave some of the Psi operatives in my Star Hero game FW with Mental powers to reflect their superior training. Worked pretty well, if m memory serves me correctly.

[TheRealVector]

Re: Help with Find Weakness vs. Mental Defense

 

Well, it is definitely book legal... even discussed in The Ultimate Mentalist. I would pay close attention to this in game... also, occasionally, he should face a target that has Lack of Weakness for Mental DEF (also discussed in TUM).

 

However, remember that it is your game. If you aren't comfortable with the power, just let the player know.

 

I think it will work out just fine. In our game's history a major arc concerned the player's group, Vanguard, battling my version of PSI (from Conquerors, Killers, & Crooks). The players were put through hell and faced many defeats before the end. Now it has been a couple of years in game time since PSI was broken, it's members dead, imprisoned, or in hiding. Now every member of Vanguard has been allowed to grow from the experience (10 pts Mental Defense).

 

The player in question, Nemesis, will eventually face mentalists with Lack of Weakness for Mental Defense. At the moment none of my npc's possess that defense and they won't be getting it overnight just because a player has thought of using FW. Perhaps after a few unfortunate encounters with Nemesis an npc mentalist will devolp some Lack of Weakness.

 

I imagine Nemesis will soon become target number one for villainous mentalists. Which is to say they mind control the nearest brick to smash him into tiny bits. LOL

[Blue]

Re: Help with Find Weakness vs. Mental Defense

 

I'd tend to head toward the easiest route:

 

Yes, you can use Find Weakness on Mental Defense if it's purchased for a mental power.

 

As long as you can target the enemy you can Find Weakness on his Mental Defense.

 

Easier is better, generally.