Moving out of combat

[Ner0Sputnik]

I've been playing Hero for a long time now and ran into a problem.

 

One of my players was being attacked by many attackers. Not enough to surround him but I felt that he should not just be able to step away from combat. Doing this allowed him to whittle them down one at a time and they ended up running around like fools the whole time.

 

I got the Combat Handbook and couldn't find any info on restricting movement when in hand to hand combat.

 

Does anyone have any info on this like where I can find rules on this?

 

What's your take on these kinds of rules?

 

Anyone have any house rules on this?

 

Thanks!

[Mister E]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

Were the bushwackers not able to attack back for some reason? Were they not ever able to Grab the hero? Did they ever get Multiple Attacker bonuses... making them more threatening?

 

HERO doesn't generally give away free attacks of oppertunity, ala d20... but if you like, I'm sure you could house-rule it... though in doing so, you might end up sacrificing some of the more flexible dynamic-type play that leads to lots of freestyle running around. If you do, I suggest using Defense Maneuvers as a counter... unless you don't want there to be one.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

Hero doesn't hardwire things like attack of opportunity into the game system but allows the Gm to make decisions and provides a range of combat options.

 

This means that the GM has to think a bit more about combat rather than simply going through the hit, roll damage process.

 

As Mister E pointed out, your multiple attackers could have been trying to grab the PC, or trip him or they might even have tried to block his movement themselves by moving into his path.

 

There would be a number of ways to model this if you wanted.

 

Finally you would also simply be able to apply bonuses to hit chances because he is not focussed on defending himself or turning his back on opponents intent on attacking him.

 

 

Doc

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

There are some immediate options that have been covered.

 

- In a tactical unit, you assign a section of the group to handle "perimeter" duties -- they hold their actions UNLESS, and when unless happens, bam, they're off.

 

- This same principle is used to simulate Attacks of Opportunity in HERO (see Fantasy HERO for more information on this) to keep people from running right past you. There's a DCV modifier for it as well, but IDHMBIFOM.

 

- You can commit some of your mooks to handling Tackling, group attack bonuses, etc. Move bys (to keep changing position and such) and move throughs. So you also have options for keeping the mooks themselves in motion.

 

- When all else fails? Step in and smack a brother. A squad on a beatdown should be a credible threat. You can also include a couple of Team Attacks to get the STUN added together if you felt that he was schooling you too badly.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

Word to the wise: you only need 6 attackers to completely surround a character.

 

A grabbed character is going to have a job running away.

 

A stunned character is going to have a job running away.

 

A thrown or tripped character is certianly going to be slowed down when it comes to running away.

 

Entangle is also useful for stopping the running.

 

Sounds to me the player was just playing quite sensibly, given the rules.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

I don't have a copy of the Combat Handbook, so I don't know if the rules are reprinted in there, but The Ultimate Martial Artist has optional rules for Ignoring Opponents and Interposing (both UMA p160) that can be used to prevent thiis exact situation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

It does.

 

Probably the easiest way to do it though is to require a character surrounded by at least 3 opponents to dive for cover to escape the enclosing. Each additional opponent after the third applies a cumulative -1 to the DCF roll.

 

Facing one or two you can back out of it without a roll, facing 6 or more you can only DFC if you can jump high enough to get over the top of your opponents (don't forget that -3 on the DFC!)

 

Anyway, it's an idea.

[Ner0Sputnik]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

Damn. What happened to the comment I posted yesterday?

 

Oh well.

 

Thanks everyone for the feedback. The problem was that he could move faster than my bad guys and, therefore, they had to do a full move to get into contact with him. I guess I should've done the math and done a couple of move-throughs on him or had one of the bad guys do a flying tackle or something. I'm just rarely ready for that eventuality. When I make my npcs I usually just have OCV/DCV I really should write down some numbers for move through and a few other basic maneuvers.

 

I was also thinking of making a "Disengage" house rule where, in order to disengage someone you're fighting in hand to hand, you have to perform an opposed dex check. This would be for Fantasy only, though. I'm just tired of guys getting attacked and then just running away with no fear. And not caring if they get attacked. This will make it a bit more urgent if they are engaged in HtH.

 

What do you think?

[Ner0Sputnik]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

I don't have a copy of the Combat Handbook' date=' so I don't know if the rules are reprinted in there, but The Ultimate Martial Artist has optional rules for Ignoring Opponents and Interposing (both UMA p160) that can be used to prevent thiis exact situation.[/quote']

 

That's great. I don't have the Ultimate Martial artist but now you've let me know what to look for in the CH. RAWK! Thanks!

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

That's great. I don't have the Ultimate Martial artist but now you've let me know what to look for in the CH. RAWK! Thanks!

 

Hey no worries, glad to help.

The rules are near and dear to my heart, because I HATE the exact situation you're describing.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

While the Interposing rule is normally only used to defend a person or discrete opening like a door, window, or hallway, if you REALLY want to stamp down on this behavior, let anyone use an Interpose to "threaten" the three hexs to his front.

 

Using both the Ignoring Opponents rule and the above liberal interpretation of Interposing makes it REAL dangerous to try and slip past folk who intend you harm. It's still heroically do-able, but it takes a lot more effort...either catching the surrounding foes off guard (i.e. with no saved phases, or perhaps hit with a good PRE attack), or they have to do it the old fashioned way and make a breach.

 

As a note, because you're doing FH.

Interposing makes taking a crennelated castle wall by storm a very rough proposition.

 

Which is as it should be.

[1EyedJack]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

IMHO the genre would also be a factor, in comic books you see stuff like that all the time, the flash,and other speedsters are easily able to disengage from melee, but in a campaign of normal heros it could pose some big issues and make it impossable to things like hold a battle line.

[KarinsDad]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

IMHO the genre would also be a factor' date=' in comic books you see stuff like that all the time, the flash,and other speedsters are easily able to disengage from melee, but in a campaign of normal heros it could pose some big issues and make it impossable to things like hold a battle line.[/quote']

 

Secret Wars.

 

The villains unexpectedly attacked the heroes. The heroes fell back.

 

Then, Cap ordered everyone to hold the line and it held. None of the villains were able to penetrate.

[Rapier]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

I would say that a character backing up with his face to an opponent can probably only use 1/2 of his normal movement (1/4 move in a half phase action). You can't move very fast going backwards and continue to see where you are going and be defensible (full DCV).

 

If someone turns their back on you and runs away? 1/2 DCV. Heck, at that point give a couple of guys a hand axe. A handaxe between the shoulder blades will be very effective!

 

Otherwise, it sounds like the player was just using good tactics. I've frequently done similar things. I place myself at what I imagine to be more than a half move and use ranged attacks. When they move forward, I move back and fire again.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

Secret Wars.

 

The villains unexpectedly attacked the heroes. The heroes fell back.

 

Then, Cap ordered everyone to hold the line and it held. None of the villains were able to penetrate.

 

Yeah, I'd see the ability to penetrate such a thing kinda a schtick of the Speedster and demi-speedster archtypes rather than an overall genre trope

[Ner0Sputnik]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

While the Interposing rule is normally only used to defend a person or discrete opening like a door' date=' window, or hallway, if you REALLY want to stamp down on this behavior, let anyone use an Interpose to "threaten" the three hexs to his front.[/quote']

 

OOOOOOO!!! Now THERE is a rule I like! I always hated it when characters did that. Hell, I never liked it when I was able to do that but I did it anyway. ;]

 

As for Superheroic campaigns... Characters like The Flash and Spiderman have ULTRA high Dexes letting them escape combat very easily. As for the running past them... well... If the character has a saved action, they can try and hit something moving at he Flash's speed... good luck. I hope you roll a 3!

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

OOOOOOO!!! Now THERE is a rule I like! I always hated it when characters did that. Hell' date=' I never liked it when I was able to do that but I did it anyway. ;']

 

As for Superheroic campaigns... Characters like The Flash and Spiderman have ULTRA high Dexes letting them escape combat very easily. As for the running past them... well... If the character has a saved action, they can try and hit something moving at he Flash's speed... good luck. I hope you roll a 3!

 

Yeah, that was my thought. Between naturally obscene Dex's/DCV's, Speedster Martial arts moves like Flying Dodge all the way up to obscene tricks like Enter the Speed Zone, there are options for fast Champions characters to "game the system" and still pull off ths kind of breakout. Making it harder to do so than is currently the default just highlights that portion of their Schtick.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

Actually, I don't think you need 6 NPCs to surround someone. After all, multiple characters can occupy the same hex, correct? So, as few as three could effectively pin in an opponent.

[gojira]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

The problem with rules preventing people from running away from a fight is ... running away works! Back when I was in the SCA, I would commonly see a knight fighting a group of unbelted fighters. The best tactic was to just back away, allowing one to move a bit faster than the others, and fight him effectively one on one, then fight the next fastest, etc.

 

Fighting in a group is hard. It takes a fair amount of drilling to do it effectively. A smart and skilled single fighter can take advantage of the group's relative lack coordination and pick them apart.

 

Ditto for fencing. Best defensive maneuver in fencing is to retreat, which is just to step backwards. It does NOT grant any sort of free attack in real life, that's just a bad DnD trope.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

The problem with rules preventing people from running away from a fight is ... running away works! Back when I was in the SCA, I would commonly see a knight fighting a group of unbelted fighters. The best tactic was to just back away, allowing one to move a bit faster than the others, and fight him effectively one on one, then fight the next fastest, etc.

 

Fighting in a group is hard. It takes a fair amount of drilling to do it effectively. A smart and skilled single fighter can take advantage of the group's relative lack coordination and pick them apart.

 

Ditto for fencing. Best defensive maneuver in fencing is to retreat, which is just to step backwards. It does NOT grant any sort of free attack in real life, that's just a bad DnD trope.

It's still gonna simulate the kind of action you describe quite well, based on my experience. Remember that the surrounding forces can only use the advantageous rules if they are saving their phases, and the rules don't really protect the attackers any, except from the "best Defence is a good Offence" POV. Add in an extra pip of Speed for the belted knight (and probably an Analyze Combat skill and/or Tactics skill as well) and the fact that he probably has a couple of Weapon based MA moves (including a good Shove).

 

What this does is makes things like Battle lines, Pike squares, defended fortifications or even really disciplined skirmishers potentially very dangerous as well as guys like Palace Guards, watchmen... you get the idea. Taking a -4 to your DCV in order to get +4 to your Held Action OCV is great as long as you're confidant you can survive that lack of defence if your new dance partner decides to come straight at you instead of slipping by.

 

If you have a Pike with 3" of reach, 8 Def armor on your vital spots a +3 DCV tower sheild and an extra +2 DCV from your buddies on either side, yeah... you might be able to take the hit to your DCV.

 

If you're standing 3" away from your nearest friend and no one is covering your lightly armored back, however...

 

I've been using the rules since they first showed up (in Ninja Hero 1stEd, IIRC) and I've had no complaints with them. I've had practical fighting experience in this sort of thing myself too, and this rings true to what I've encountered.

 

Pike Squares are SCARY to charge.

(Hint... Wedge formation. Put your Champion on point...you want skilled and STRONG. If your weapon is sufficently uber, go ahead and Sweep attack the Pikes. Otherwise Sweep a Weapon Bind. Then your buddies force the hole open and soon everybody is hacking on pikemen and they're drawing their itty bitty cat gutters )

They're worse if they also have shot & dopplesoliders, who were added to stop guys like me from doing that.

[Ner0Sputnik]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

The problem with rules preventing people from running away from a fight is ... running away works!

 

You're right! It absolutely does! But if you're fighting a skilled opponent and he doesn't want you to get away, it's going to be a lot harder. In my own practical fighting history I've had guys come in, do the usual flurry of moves, I defended and when they backed off, I advanced. They tried to retreat but I didn't let them. I kept the press until I scored a hit. I've also had this turned around on me... That's why I believe making a Dex vs. Dex check would simulate this pretty well. You could even buy a skill called "Disengage" that would give you bonuses.

 

It does NOT grant any sort of free attack in real life, that's just a bad DnD trope.

 

I don't know why people think I'm going to give them a free hit. That's not the way it works. If it fails, it fails. You're still in HtH. It's not like you just drop your weapon, turn around and run. LOL! Yeah, that's pretty lame.

 

They do that in D&D? LOL! There's a reason I don't play that game.

[gojira]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

You're right! It absolutely does! But if you're fighting a skilled opponent and he doesn't want you to get away' date=' it's going to be a lot harder.[/quote']

 

Note my example was of a MORE skilled fighter fighting a group of less skilled opponents.

 

The reason I choose that example was because it seemed to be the best actual example of what you described in the OP. One guy, with higher movement and presumably more skill, stringing out a group of lesser opponents.

 

Against two equally skilled opponents, or against a more skilled opponent, a retreat is not a panacea. At worst it delays the inevitable. At best it gives you time to think of something else to try.

 

That's why I believe making a Dex vs. Dex check would simulate this pretty well. You could even buy a skill called "Disengage" that would give you bonuses.

 

Not sure exactly what you are referring too here, but it sounds like a Block. A block allows you to get the next hit in, regardless of DEX order, and so will presumably put the other guy on the defensive.

 

If you're talking about a retreat requiring a Dex roll... not sure. The faster fighter should be able to out maneuver the slower one. This is a good reason to set strict campaign limits. Higher stats in any area make you superior, period.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

If you have initiative and you turn to run, you are going to run. What are the enemies' options?

 

1. Abort to DFC and get in your way. If they can't Casual STR through you, they are stuck.

 

2. They are at 1/2 DCV if they are running away from you. If they are backing away they would be at 1/2 movement and obviously not getting far. Plus, if the floor is cluttered I would require a DEX roll to avoid tripping over something (most dungeons are cluttered).

 

3. If they have Held actions they can do a contest of DEX to react before you are out of reach.

 

4. If they don't have initiative they are going to have a hard time reacting in time. They could Hurry, adding 1d6 DEX to their Initiative to get an attack in before the defender bolts.

 

So, it all comes down to readiness. If the enemies don't have enough DEX to go first at some point they are going to have to hold an action.

 

I don't see this situation as a problem. Unless you are grappling with someone you are never "engaged" in melee. You can always turn and run. If your opponent doesn't have a held action, you are going to get away, as it should be.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

For the D&D Bashers:

 

Assuming an HTH attacker who lacks the ability to attack beyond about 5', the disengaging character can move out of their range without suffering an automatic retaliatory attack. If he's surrounded on three sides and can't quickly get out of range of all those opponents, it becomes tougher for him to skip neatly away while suffering no retaliation.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Moving out of combat

 

For the D&D Bashers:

 

Assuming an HTH attacker who lacks the ability to attack beyond about 5', the disengaging character can move out of their range without suffering an automatic retaliatory attack. If he's surrounded on three sides and can't quickly get out of range of all those opponents, it becomes tougher for him to skip neatly away while suffering no retaliation.

 

Thank you, I was just gonna do that. The 5' step doesnt provoke an Attack of Opportunity, and if you just want to move, you can use the Withdraw action.