Alternate System: Size Stat

[schir1964]

Size Stat

An alternate system for handling permanent size changes and combat involving characters of different size.

 

This is too large to put in a post so I've added the link.

 

I'm putting it in a new thread for easy reference.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

Very brief review:

 

So for the first size increment up, I get:

 

- +15 STR (value 15 points)

- +3 BOD (value 6 points)

- +6 REC (3 from STR; value for +3 6 points)

- +20 END (value 10 points)

- +3 PD (comes from STR)

- +15 STUN (8 from STR, 3 from BOD so value 4 points)

- -3" Knockback (value 9 points)

- +4" running (value 8 points)

- +20 CON to resist Stunning (Value uncertain - say 5 points)

 

So that's 60 points of value for a 30 point investment, or 20 points if it ISN'T always on.

 

Moving from "category 9" to "category 10", the Running bonus alone is worth 230 points!

 

I also effectively get +5 PRE, only for PRE attacks (all smaller characters take -1d6 and I get +1d6), potential Reach and AoE attack.

 

It costs me 2 DCV (can be offset by 10 points in DCV levels) and some stealth bonuses (+2 to Stealth costs 4 points).

 

And, as an added "bonus", we lose all steps between steady doublings!

 

I get the sense that the players who "had an interest" in this project were playing characters who increase their size or mass...

[feralucce]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

yeah...the numbers don' add up... seems a tad broken

[schir1964]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

Corrections:

+15 STR (10 Points, No Figured -1/2)

+3 BOD (4 Points, No Figured -1/2)

+6 REC (12 Points)

+20 END (10 Points)

+3 PD (3 Points)

+15 STUN (15 Points)

-3" Knockback (9 Points)

+4" Running (8 Points)

+20 Stunning (20 Points, CON for Stunning Only -1)

 

Inherent Different From The Norm Penalties (-30 Points, No disadvantages for size and so forth, value varies based on level and is rolled into cost)

--------------------------------------------------

So that's 60 points of value for a 30 point investment' date=' or 20 points if it ISN'T always on.[/quote']

Not quite, see above.

 

You are correct in that the amount spent is technically less than the what the individual costs would suggest, but this is no different than how Figured Stats work now, so the same criticism applies to Figured Stats.

 

BTW: As we worked on the Size Stat the numbers from the current rules never did add up properly and since a lot of this was derived from Growth and Shrinking, it inherented the same types of problems.

 

Moving from "category 9" to "category 10"' date=' the Running bonus alone is worth 230 points![/quote']

True, but you are talking about someone who is 2000 Meters Tall and Weighs 100,000 Kilotons. So you aren't talking about something all that useful at this stage (that is, for a character who is supposed to be a Superhero).

 

Some rambling musings to think about:

 

How is this different from Non-Combat Movement? You double your movement rate for a fixed cost increase for each purchase not to mention the penalty for moving Non-Combat is fixed regardless of the number of doublings.

 

Also, why isn't running/swimming/leaping a stat that costs points to increase or decrease? Per the rules, they are considered powers.

 

Logically, the amount of running should increase with larger characters, just like Reach increases.

 

If the cost doesn't match what you think it should, feel free to change it. This was not to create the "perfect system" for handling size (to do that would require scrapping everything and starting from scratch).

 

Perhaps it would not seem odd if you looked at the Size Stat like STR. STR grants you a whole lot more than it's actual cost. But it seems to work for people in spite of that.

 

I also effectively get +5 PRE' date=' only for PRE attacks (all smaller characters take -1d6 and I get +1d6), potential Reach and AoE attack.[/quote']

These are part of the Combat bonuses which apply to everybody equally.

 

It costs me 2 DCV (can be offset by 10 points in DCV levels) and some stealth bonuses (+2 to Stealth costs 4 points).

Although you could increase you DCV to offset the penalty, which is possible now with the current system, the Stealth would grant you no bonus unless you were using it vs something near the same size class. It doesn't matter how much stealth (not hiding bonus, but moving stealth) Godzilla has, it isn't going to do him any good when he steps on the house next door to you, you are going to notice. (8^D)

 

Common sense must be applied to all rules, even the Size Stat.

 

And' date=' as an added "bonus", we lose all steps between steady doublings![/quote']

Actually, no you didn't, for simplicity, my document only included those steps that would most commonly be used. Someone made a humongus chart for me that included all in between steps (blech!). If you want, I might be able to scrounge up that excel spreadsheet and send it to you.

 

You could probably figure out the inbetween steps yourself, but I guess you don't want to do that.

 

I get the sense that the players who "had an interest" in this project were playing characters who increase their size or mass...

No, just didn't like the inconsistency and piecemeal way Size was currently handled (or lack thereof). That's all.

 

BTW: There were many things where a consensus was never reached on how something should be implemented, so I had to just go ahead and make some decisions. I think the document came up with some very useful ideas, especially in the combat section for handling size differences. The penalty/bonus chart could be used in isolation of the rest of the system.

 

This thing has been around for years, but I never got around to putting it in it's own thread until now. I always intended to go back and include Density levels in the chart for comparison, but just never found the time or motivation to do so.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

yeah...the numbers don' add up... seems a tad broken

Have you ever tried to get Growth or Shrinking numbers to add up? (8^D)

 

You are correct, they do not add up, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is broken, just look at STR.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

Just A Note

 

If you read the whole document, it will be obvious that this chart is to be used as a guideline for Humanoid characters who by default are a certain size (permanent size, you can not inherently change or turn off of the Size Stat, other powers are required for that if that is desired).

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

Corrections:

+15 STR (10 Points, No Figured -1/2)

+3 BOD (4 Points, No Figured -1/2)

+6 REC (12 Points)

+20 END (10 Points)

+3 PD (3 Points)

+15 STUN (15 Points)

-3" Knockback (9 Points)

+4" Running (8 Points)

+20 Stunning (20 Points, CON for Stunning Only -1)

 

That's 71 points plus whatever the CON costs. Whether -1 is appropriate is open to debate, but it should be a signficant limitation. Automotons buy "Can't be stunned" which is basically an unlimited version for less than 20 points.

 

Inherent Different From The Norm Penalties (-30 Points' date=' No disadvantages for size and so forth, value varies based on level and is rolled into cost)[/quote']

 

So in your view, -2 DCV, +2 to be perceived and being twice as large as normal is worth 30 points? I would suggest that's very much over-valued.

 

You are correct in that the amount spent is technically less than the what the individual costs would suggest' date=' but this is no different than how Figured Stats work now, so the same criticism applies to Figured Stats.[/quote']

 

And has been, historically. This, however, strikes me as an order or two of magnitude worse than the Figured Char issue.

 

True' date=' but you are talking about someone who is 2000 Meters Tall and Weighs 100,000 Kilotons. So you aren't talking about something all that useful at this stage (that is, for a character who is supposed to be a Superhero).[/quote']

 

Why stat it out at all then? In any case, why not buy it JUST to get the bonus running, and have a huge movement speed?

 

How is this different from Non-Combat Movement? You double your movement rate for a fixed cost increase for each purchase not to mention the penalty for moving Non-Combat is fixed regardless of the number of doublings.

 

Noncombat speed is useless in combat. This isn't.

 

Also' date=' why isn't running/swimming/leaping a stat that costs points to increase or decrease? Per the rules, they are considered powers.[/quote']

 

So are stats with limitations. It's just semantics.

 

Logically' date=' the amount of running should increase with larger characters, just like Reach increases.[/quote']

 

Logically, the cube/square law should render such giants unviable as life forms. Mice commonly outrun elephants, and I've watched grown men chase cats and dogs without catching them. Your premise does not hold true.

 

These are part of the Combat bonuses which apply to everybody equally.

 

If I decide that +5 CON grants +20 PD and ED Armor, that also applies to all characters equally. It doesn't mean the ones who don't buy CON aren't getting ripped off. Extra size under your system enhances both offensive and defensive PRE, a further benefit that widens the disparity between cost and benefit.

 

Although you could increase you DCV to offset the penalty' date=' which is possible now with the current system, the Stealth would grant you no bonus unless you were using it vs something near the same size class. It doesn't matter how much stealth (not hiding bonus, but moving stealth) Godzilla has, it isn't going to do him any good when he steps on the house next door to you, you are going to notice. (8^D)[/quote']

 

The stealth penalty is only an issue if you plan on being stealthy. How many points would you grant for "can never make a stealth roll"? Logically, penalties to steath rolls are of less value.

 

Common sense must be applied to all rules' date=' even the Size Stat.[/quote']

 

Its critics agree - it must be and has not been.

 

 

If you read the whole document' date=' it will be obvious that this chart is to be used as a guideline for Humanoid characters who by default are a certain size (permanent size, you can not inherently change or turn off of the Size Stat, other powers are required for that if that is desired).[/quote']

 

Your post indicates it costs only 20 points per level to be able to shut the Size on and off at will (basicallly, the 30 points with a "costs END" limitation.

 

As a simple litmus test for the appropriateness of the cost, would anyone ever be motivated to play a Brick of normal size under these rules? I suggest they would not. Bricks as a rule tend to be low DCV and lacking in stealth anyway.

[Mister E]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

I like much of what you guys came up with, but in my mind a Size stat should focus on size-specific mechanics more, and leave off the rest. I see Size as more of a scale of relative dimension, rather than as a package-deal of pseudo-inherent traits (though I like package deals, and desire their presence).

 

For instance:

 

Hand-Print Size... it's suggested that at 12 levels of Growth you can 'casually' AoE normal sized humans. Let's reason from this to figure a rule relative for all sizes.

 

Foot-Print Size... a targeted standard hex has a DCV of 3. What're the DCV's of variously sized hexes applicable to variously sized characters? And for that matter, shouldn't we make it so single-hex AoE's don't take away the DCV's of giant characters? I think so, but there aren't any rules for this.

 

Effective Size... movement and reach modulated appart from actual size, to allow for common Shrinking builds that let characters run around and hit things like they are much bigger than they are (or possibly for respresenting low gravity effects).

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

I've got an alternate system that I've been mulling over for multiple years. My version is trying to roll the Growth and Shrinking Powers into size increases and decreases.

 

What I'm leaning toward is this: if you buy +5 STR, +1 BODY, and +1" of Knockback Resistance, you can take a Limitation against them: Adds Mass. For every +5 STR, +1 BODY, and +1" Knockback Resistance you buy with this Limitation, your mass doubles; you can buy them Costs Endurance or Non-Persistent if you have to "activate" them. You would have a "stat" (I'm not sure whether it would be an actual Characteristic, a Power, or how to treat it) called Scale, at 5 points per; every +1 Scale doubles the size of one hex for that character. He's still 1 hex tall, can reach 1 hex, runs 6 hexes per Phase, but if he's bought 3 levels of Scale, each of his hexes is 16 meters, so he's then 16 meters tall, can reach into the next 16 meter hex, and can run 96 meters combat per Phase. One level of Scale and three levels of mass (+15 STR, +3 BODY, +3" Knockback Resistance, Adds Mass) equates to one level of Growth.

 

I haven't written any of this up except for right here, though.

[Mister E]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

I've got an alternate system that I've been mulling over for multiple years. My version is trying to roll the Growth and Shrinking Powers into size increases and decreases....

 

Seems pretty cool.

[schir1964]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

That's 71 points plus whatever the CON costs. Whether -1 is appropriate is open to debate' date=' but it should be a signficant limitation. Automotons buy "Can't be stunned" which is basically an unlimited version for less than 20 points.[/quote']

The CON Limitation is what is the "Official" limitation is for Stun Prevention only, so that is what I went with at the time.

 

You are correct it is more expensive the way we calculated it. It was one of the debates we had. I wanted to go with figured stats included, but was overruled by the majority that individually purchases were more appropriate.

 

I'd have to go digging back through my emails again to find out all that was included in the final cost that I came up with.

 

So in your view' date=' -2 DCV, +2 to be perceived and being twice as large as normal is worth 30 points? I would suggest that's very much over-valued.[/quote']

Hugh, I'm going to say this again. DCV and Perception are listed in the Combat section, they are separate and apply to everyone, therefore, they were not included for determining the cost of the Size Stat.

 

Now I clarify what I mean by the Not The Norm stuff...

Unable to enter small rooms, vehicles, or elevators that are normally used.

Distinctive Features (based on size).

Unable to use normal devices (from being too large or too small).

Unable to get normal medical treatment.

And so forth...

 

All of these things you don't get to take any Disadvantages if they are derive solely from the Size Stat. These disadvantages are rolled into the cost of the Size Stat.

 

And has been' date=' historically. This, however, strikes me as an order or two of magnitude worse than the Figured Char issue.[/quote']

But being Historical doesn't change the principle of it. You can claim that there is some difference such as...

This is bad...

This is more bad....

 

All I can say is, try it out, then tell me how it it needs to be corrected. I'm not going to tell you that this is THE solution for handling Size. It was an attempt to create something better than the current (5th Edition at the time) rules. Which I think it does. You can say that it should cost more. fine. make it cost what you think it should cost, I'm not telling you have use the costs in the table. The document itself clearly states that this is just a guideline and expects the GM to change anything he wants to make it work for his games.

 

Why stat it out at all then? In any case' date=' why not buy it JUST to get the bonus running, and have a huge movement speed?[/quote']

Once again... Guideline... This is what a humanoid character should logically have if they were proportionally larger or smaller. Not my fault if the system makes certain sizes too expensive to play with the current rules. This system doesn't (sort of like how STR works). If you don't like that, change it.

 

Noncombat speed is useless in combat. This isn't.

Really? So it is impossible for anyone to use Non-Combat half move and attack another character... hmmm... I don't remember the rules mentioning that. Perhaps you can refresh my memory. (8^D)

 

Just having some fun at your expense. (8^D)

 

So are stats with limitations. It's just semantics.

Then I guess then your arguments against are just semantics also. (8^D)

Hugh, I really don't care if you don't like the system. If you think it is broken, then fix it. If you don't want to fix it then don't use it. I didn't post it here for those who are fine with the system as is, it is here for those who may be looking for another possible system.

 

BTW: I know you are just doing your normal evaluation and poking holes and pointing possible flaws, but if you aren't doing this in order to fix it to make it better, then I see nothing beneficial in it. So in short, I'm not going to try to argue with you and try to prove this system works or try to convince you to use this. If it's not for you, then don't use it.

 

Logically' date=' the cube/square law should render such giants unviable as life forms. Mice commonly outrun elephants, and I've watched grown men chase cats and dogs without catching them. Your premise does not hold true.[/quote']

Nice rabbit trail there. (8^D)

 

Of course this is being based on the Mechanics of the Hero System. So logically, using this system, characters that are proportionally larger/smaller should have certain levels of certain mechanics. You seem to be having problem with the Hero System more than with the Size Stat. Feel free to take it up with Steve Long.

 

 

And if I decide that +5 CON grants +20 PD and ED Armor' date=' that also applies to all characters equally. It doesn't mean the ones who don't buy CON aren't getting ripped off. Extra size under your system enhances both offensive and defensive PRE, a further benefit that widens the disparity between cost and benefit.[/quote']

Pointless argument. See above.

 

The stealth penalty is only an issue if you plan on being stealthy. How many points would you grant for "can never make a stealth roll"? Logically' date=' penalties to steath rolls are of less value.[/quote']

Pointless argument see above concerning Disadvantage.

 

Your post indicates it costs only 20 points per level to be able to shut the Size on and off at will (basicallly' date=' the 30 points with a "costs END" limitation.[/quote']

As the default, or as a GM option or alternative. (8^D)

 

As a simple litmus test for the appropriateness of the cost' date=' would anyone ever be motivated to play a Brick of normal size under these rules? I suggest they would not. Bricks as a rule tend to be low DCV and lacking in stealth anyway.[/quote']

Again, the document makes it obvious that the cost is just a gudeline.

 

And I'm done with this discussion. I don't have time for a pointless debate that will not result in anything beneficial (as far as I can see). I've other more important things going in my life right now. I just posted this here to be helpful for some people posting in other threads. It's nothing personal, I just don't have time for this.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

I like much of what you guys came up with' date=' but in my mind a Size stat should focus on size-specific mechanics more, and leave off the rest. I see Size as more of a scale of relative dimension, rather than as a package-deal of pseudo-inherent traits (though I like package deals, and desire their presence).[/quote']

Yeah, I was kind of thinking that also. One of these days I might get back to this and rework it from scratch.

 

Thanks you.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

I've got an alternate system that I've been mulling over for multiple years. My version is trying to roll the Growth and Shrinking Powers into size increases and decreases.

 

What I'm leaning toward is this: if you buy +5 STR, +1 BODY, and +1" of Knockback Resistance, you can take a Limitation against them: Adds Mass...

Oddly, the next thing I was going to do was to add a Mass column to the chart to allow for Density changes. Maybe one of these years...

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

Hugh' date=' I'm going to say this again. DCV and Perception are listed in the Combat section, they are separate and apply to everyone, therefore, they were not included for determining the cost of the Size Stat.[/quote']

 

Where you list them has no bearing on their relative values. A large character loses DCV and gains PRE bonuses. Whether you list it in the chart or the text is irrelevant. There are lots of rulesin the combat section, but you still get points back if the specific power lacks benefits listed there, and pay to eliminate drawbacks in the combat section.

 

Now I clarify what I mean by the Not The Norm stuff...

Unable to enter small rooms, vehicles, or elevators that are normally used.

Distinctive Features (based on size).

Unable to use normal devices (from being too large or too small).

Unable to get normal medical treatment.

And so forth...

 

All of these things you don't get to take any Disadvantages if they are derive solely from the Size Stat. These disadvantages are rolled into the cost of the Size Stat.

 

Let's assume, for the moment, that the drawbacks match the extra points perfectly, so that 70 points of value (say) is offset by 40 points of drawbacks. That looks balanced prima facie.

 

However, let's look a little closer. GrowthMan has extra Size, say 3 levels (90 points) which grants him 210 points of value and 120 points of drawbacks. Would you allow EnergyBlast Girl to have an extra 120 points of disadvantages (similar, in some way, to the drawbacks GrowthMan experiences) and buy an extra 120 points of abilities? In most games, I don't think this would be permitted. As a result, this approach to the size table permits the growth character to circumvent the campaign's disadvantage cap.

 

Once again... Guideline... This is what a humanoid character should logically have if they were proportionally larger or smaller. Not my fault if the system makes certain sizes too expensive to play with the current rules. This system doesn't (sort of like how STR works). If you don't like that' date=' change it.[/quote']

 

Emphasis mine. Is it too expensive to play, and this is a bad thing because the character would not be unbalanced in play, and having this option availabe would add to the game? Or is it too expensive to play because it's too powerful? Captain America is too expensive to play in a 50 + 50 Dark Champions mercenary game. Silver Age Superman is too expensive to play in a 200 + 150 point Supers game. That's as it should be - they are too effective to be comparable in such games.

 

To the issue of logic, your system proposes +3 PD per Size Stat, but no bonus to ED. So, if Sluggo hits The Behemoth (size stat 10) with his 70 STR + 1d6 HA - Brass Knuckles, Behemoth enjoys an extra 30 PD due to his size stat. But if Zapper hits him with his 70 STR + 1d6 HA - ShockStick, doing energy, rather than physical, damage, that extra 30 defense isn't there, and Behemoth is hit hard. Is that logical? Well, logically, Behemoth should have bought some extra ED due to his massive size. But wasn't the Size stat supposed to fold in everything Behemoth's massive size should logically provide?

 

Really? So it is impossible for anyone to use Non-Combat half move and attack another character... hmmm... I don't remember the rules mentioning that. Perhaps you can refresh my memory. (8^D)

 

Acceleration handles part of this, and the 0 OCV while using noncombat movement handles the rest. "Impossible"? No. At all practical? Also no.

 

Of course this is being based on the Mechanics of the Hero System. So logically' date=' using this system, characters that are proportionally larger/smaller should have certain levels of certain mechanics. You seem to be having problem with the Hero System more than with the Size Stat. Feel free to take it up with Steve Long.[/quote']

 

Steve Long's system says you don't get something for nothing, and you may ned to purchase various different mechanical abilities to adequately simulate the special effects desired. So, if your large character should run faster, shell out the points for more running.

 

I thought the purpose of YOUR system was to remove the need to buy each mechanic separately, so you only bought one ability to get all the benefits and drawbacks logically associated with the change in size. I'm saying your system doesn't appear to accurately reflect that, so it is appropriately taken up with you.

 

As the default' date=' or as a GM option or alternative. (8^D)[/quote']

 

Well, you've made size a characteristic, right? Characteristics can be purchased as powers, and have limitations applied to them. Size - Costs END, or Size - nonpersistent, are both characteristics with limitations in your system, and characteristics with limitations are perfectly legitimate in the Hero rules to which you are appending your Size system. Therefore, the purchase of +1 Size, Costs END for 20 points is clearly legitimate under your system.

[DiTenebras]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

I've been looking for a better way to handle size increases for a while, so I'm glad to see a new viewpoint on the subject! Just a couple of observations:

 

First, I'm a little worried about the "Normal Disadvantages" that are used to help justify the 30 point per rank cost, because these are disadvantages that would not scale with additional size. Why? Well, the disadvantages could be best described by Physical Limitation (friggin HUGE; all the time, greatly impairing) - 20 points (or 15 if you call it frequently), and Distinctive Features (A tad on the large side; not concealable, causes extreme reaction/fear) - 25 points. Both of these combined would give you 45 points of limitation. Great, huh? Problem is, they don't scale. The same limitation would apply whether you were 4" or 400" tall, without a difference of point cost. When building a new power, you should try to keep non-scaling costs separate (best used as adders if they're beneficial or character disads if they're not). You've listed your "Normal Disadvantages" in your corrected post as accounting for 30 points at rank one. The same limitations are accounting for 300 points at rank 10, for what should be less than 50 points worth of Character Disadvantages.

 

Secondly, as far as the overall cost per level goes, the difference in what you spend and what you get is a bit too much. At level 10, the chart lists:

 

160 STR (No figured characteristics -1/4)

40 BODY (No figured characteristics -1/4)

32 PD

64 REC

220 END

170 STUN

110 CON (Only VS Stunning -1)

-30 KNOCKBACK

+339" RUNNING

 

...this alone is 1,447 points worth of abilities, and doesn't even begin to count the 160" reach or the 32 hex radius for physical attacks. Altogether, you're getting about four times what you pay for, even at lower levels (except for the first two).

 

I think the size chart is a good concept, but needs to be reworked a bit. First off, you may want to try buying STR, BODY and CON with figured characteristics rather than buying the separate figured characteristics. Since you're viewing Size as a characteristic rather than a power, there's no problem having it give figured characteristics as well. Also, you may want to look at the various abilities given by the size characteristic (speed in particular) and see if they're true for ALL larger characters or creatures - Just because you're four times as tall as something else doesn't mean you can run faster, recover faster, or work longer, or that your flesh is more difficult to damage (sure, you can take more damage, but that's what the extra BODY represents).

 

If you try to pare down the ability to reflect things that are inherent to larger creatures, I think you'll wind up with a characteristic that's both more realistic in cost and more allowing of customization for different creatures.

[schir1964]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

First' date=' I'm a little worried about the "Normal Disadvantages"...[/quote']

Understood, at the time, there was little else to derive points from. However, there is nothing stopping anyone from creating a size disadvantage that scales in direct proportion to the size of the character, if that is what you want.

 

Secondly' date=' as far as the overall cost per level goes, the difference in what you spend and what you get is a bit too much.[/quote']

Feel free to change the costs to reflect the exact costs at each level.

 

At level 10, the chart lists:

 

160 STR (No figured characteristics -1/4)

40 BODY (No figured characteristics -1/4)

32 PD

64 REC

220 END

170 STUN

110 CON (Only VS Stunning -1)

-30 KNOCKBACK

+339" RUNNING

 

...this alone is 1,447 points worth of abilities, and doesn't even begin to count the 160" reach or the 32 hex radius for physical attacks. Altogether, you're getting about four times what you pay for, even at lower levels (except for the first two).

Perhaps it would be better to look at these with a builtin -2 Limitation Permanent State Of Being. Again, feel free to change the numbers to reflect the exact value you think they should be. Also, remember STR grants you a lot more than it's actual cost. So this aggravates the problem also.

 

Side note: Remember that at Size 10, the character is 2 Kilometer Tall, weighs 100,000 Kilotons, and covers a 1024 Hexes when standing. And this is all in a Normal Human Sized world, not a Giant Human Sized world. So when someone of this permanent size has to try to interact in a norma human sized world I guess 300 Points for this might seem extremely cheap to some. But in a Heroic Setting (Fantasy) in a 350 Point starting game, I guess it depends on your viewpoint.

 

I think the size chart is a good concept' date=' but needs to be reworked a bit. First off, you may want to try buying STR, BODY and CON with figured characteristics rather than buying the separate figured characteristics.[/quote']

Figured characteristics are problematic by themselves. After a long debate and different attempts, we decided it was best to divest the figured stats from the primary stats. But if you think they could work, please work up a chart and send it to me. I like to see how you resolve the problems with them.

 

Since you're viewing Size as a characteristic rather than a power' date=' there's no problem having it give figured characteristics as well.[/quote']

Actually, this is incorrect. Size is being viewed as, "Guideline of Stats and Abilities of a Humanoid shaped creature that is proportionately larger or smaller." The guideline gives you the basic stats, which then can be changed as needed to fit the SFX. So Size in this context is not being viewed a single Power which grants or tied to a rigid set of stats. By having figured stats it becomes increasing difficult to modify the guidelines to fit various SFX, thus limiting it's usefulness.

 

Also' date=' you may want to look at the various abilities given by the size characteristic (speed in particular) and see if they're true for ALL larger characters or creatures - Just because you're four times as tall as something else doesn't mean you can run faster, recover faster, or work longer, or that your flesh is more difficult to damage (sure, you can take more damage, but that's what the extra BODY represents).[/quote']

See above. I understand that you weren't around for the dicussions that brought this about. Your presumptions are off the mark, thus your assertions. Once again, the numbers represent a humanoid creature (human shaped) at different sizes (proportionally). And just as you said, since the abilities shown represent a guideline for only those creatures that are Humanoid, the guideline needs to be flexible enough to be able to modify each ability individually, which is exactly how it is designed. Having figured stats actually works against this flexibility. Unless you have an idea that I've missed. I'm willing to look at anything you can come up with in order to improve it.

 

If you try to pare down the ability to reflect things that are inherent to larger creatures' date=' I think you'll wind up with a characteristic that's both more realistic in cost and more allowing of customization for different creatures.[/quote']

What did you have in mind exactly.

 

Note: Also keep in mind that the current rules have you buy each individual ability completely separate and thus supports the customization for different creatures as you suggest (but this wasn't the goal of the Size Chart).

 

- Christopher Mullins

[tomd1969]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

Actually, Chris, not to be a bugbear, but I've noticed one small, insignificant mathematical error on one of your tables. I'm speaking specifically of this one:

 

(|Size Stat - Size Stat| x 2)

 

This should be:

 

2^(|Size stat - Size Stat|)

 

I make the same mistake all the time. Perhaps that table would be easier if we just dispensed with the doublings and went with differences of Size Stats? See the attachment for an example.

[schir1964]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

Actually, Chris, not to be a bugbear, but I've noticed one small, insignificant mathematical error on one of your tables. I'm speaking specifically of this one:

 

(|Size Stat - Size Stat| x 2)

 

This should be:

 

2^(|Size stat - Size Stat|)

 

I make the same mistake all the time. Perhaps that table would be easier if we just dispensed with the doublings and went with differences of Size Stats? See the attachment for an example.

Ooops. You're right. I meant the second formula. I'll have to correct that.

 

- Chistopher Mullins

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

...You would have a "stat" (I'm not sure whether it would be an actual Characteristic, a Power, or how to treat it) called Scale, at 5 points per; every +1 Scale doubles the size of one hex for that character. He's still 1 hex tall, can reach 1 hex, runs 6 hexes per Phase, but if he's bought 3 levels of Scale, each of his hexes is 16 meters, so he's then 16 meters tall, can reach into the next 16 meter hex, and can run 96 meters combat per Phase. One level of Scale and three levels of mass (+15 STR, +3 BODY, +3" Knockback Resistance, Adds Mass) equates to one level of Growth.

 

I haven't written any of this up except for right here, though.

I quite like this. Please do continue developing the idea!

[schir1964]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

I've got an alternate system that I've been mulling over for multiple years. My version is trying to roll the Growth and Shrinking Powers into size increases and decreases...

 

I haven't written any of this up except for right here, though.

If you do get it all worked out, I'll format it for you and link it into the New Ideas thread.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[GamePhil]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

I'm astonished at the frequency with which the drawbacks to being 1km tall are being ignored. Why wouldn't I take this just to get the huge Running bonus alone? Well, if I wanted to have to destroy property and accidentally step on people, and cause tremors when I run at full speed, that might be a good idea. Otherwise, no.

 

As for the Running: It's really the equivalent of Megascale, not noncombat movement. You are on a different scale from other characters, so you run according to that scale. I'm not seeing a huge problem there.

[Nodens]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

Hi.

 

I've been working with Size issues myself, for a Fantasy Hero game I'm running. Because the game has both Giants and Pixies in it, I have to grapple with issues for both very large and very small characters. I've tried a lot of different approaches, but it seemed like someone always got hosed by my ruling and didn't like it (what GM doesn't know this pain?).

 

So finally, I built a SCALE element into my game. It's a talent called "Large Scale" if you're larger than normal, and a physical limitation called "Small Scale" if you're smaller than normal.

 

I am still working on it, but I thought it might be useful to me if I present it here for you folks to critique.

 

Based on my experiences with Battletech, I started with the concept of variable hex sizes to help establish the base differential in the scales. That is, very small characters user smaller hexes, and very large characters user larger hexes in all of their actions. A character's hex size affects his move, the range of his powers, even the knockback he takes from an attack.

 

Next I put in modifiers to the characteristics. These modifiers apply after figured stats have been computed (it would be a real mess otherwise). Also note that for BODY in particular, the modifier can't reduce a character to less than 1 BODY - otherwise, he'd wake up dead!

 

Next, I decided that the easiest way to handle the CV differences between characters' scales is to adjust DEX directly. This offsets the point value imbalance between small and large characters from STR, BODY, and KB somewhat. It also creates some interesting and useful situations. For instance, smaller characters (who are usually dangerously low on BODY) almost always act before larger characters in a segment. This gives them a chance in combat to get to safety before they are crushed. Also, the OCV / DCV bonus that the DEX gives them helps them avoid injury.

 

Now, as an aside, I should tell you that I also adjust weapons and equipment for the small and large characters. A longsword is a 3d6 PHKA in my game (I like lethal fights). Since I defined the pixie as being -9 levels of scale, this means that a pixie-scale longsword loses 9 DCs, becoming a base weapon DC of 0 (no damage)! Thus, the pixies must typically enchant their weapons to enhance the damage enough to injure humans. They also use poison, magic, and dirty tricks.

 

Finally, I needed to figure out how to cost this out to characters. To do this, I exploit logic found in the definition of Reputation - it can be positive or negative.

 

First, I decided to ignore secondary effects such as hex size, height, and weight. I figure they are situationally either disadvantages or advantages, and as such their play balance impact can't be directly computed.

 

Looking at just the characteristic adjustments, and assuming a factor of +/-2 points per KB modifier, we come out with a 3 point benefit for every increase in scale. If we calibrate the scale to human size at +0 points, we can compute the value of the talent or the physical limitation.

 

Whew!

 

I've included a text file with the table. What do you guys think?

[ATTACH]31741[/ATTACH]

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

I agree that permanently different sizes should be handled with a secondary stat similar to run / swim / leap, bought in steps. However the only collateral effects I would link to it are PER, DCV, and NCM modifiers. Everything else would be purchased / sold back independently to suit concept.

 

Something like:

 

SIZE

 

-5 = 6.25% normal Size: +5 DCV, -3 PER to notice, -5 NCM to STR, BODY, Run (Swim bottoms out at NCM 1" each), +5 NCM to DEX

 

-4 = 12.5% normal Size: +4 DCV, -2 PER to notice, -4 NCM to STR, BODY, Run, Swim, +4 NCM to DEX

 

-3 = 25% normal Size: +3 DCV, -2 PER to notice, -3 NCM to STR, BODY, Run, Swim, +3 NCM to DEX

 

-2 = 50% normal Size: +2 DCV, -2 PER to notice, -2 NCM to STR, BODY, Run, Swim, +2 NCM to DEX

 

-1 = 75% normal Size: +1 DCV, -1 PER to notice, -1 NCM to STR, BODY, Run, Swim, +1 NCM to DEX

 

0 = Default "humanoid normal" Size: no PER or DCV modifiers

 

+1 = 125% normal size: -1 DCV, +1 PER to notice, +1 NCM to STR, BODY, Run, Swim, -1 NCM to DEX

 

+2 = 150% normal size: -2 DCV, +1 PER to notice, +2 NCM to STR, BODY, Run, Swim, -2 NCM to DEX

 

+3 = 175% normal size: -3 DCV, +2 PER to notice, +3 NCM to STR, BODY, Run, Swim, -3 NCM to DEX

 

+4 = 200% normal size: -4 DCV, +2 PER to notice, +4 NCM to STR, BODY, Run, Swim, -4 NCM to DEX

 

+5 = 225% normal size: -5 DCV, +3 PER to notice, +5 NCM to STR, BODY, Run, Swim, -5 NCM to DEX

 

 

Where NCM limits fall below base starting stats, the starting stat is reduced to be equal to their adjusted limit for 0 point benefit.

 

Each Size step costs 0 points. However, there is not a seperate Physical Limitation associated with being larger or smaller than normal (as there is under the current 5th Edition method); all the associated pros and cons of being larger or smaller than normal, including physical and social aspects, are all bundled into the steps and handled as roleplaying and / or environmental elements.

 

 

Clearly, this style of Size has the most impact in a heroic level campaign, but that's also where characters being naturally larger or smaller crops up the most; as part of Race concepts generally.

[Nodens]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

Okay... Here's my latest attempt.

 

Scale (SCA)

Scale is the characteristic that determines the normal size of a character. For the base cost of 0 points, the character is normal size – approximately 1 hex tall and ½ hex across. For every 5 points paid, a character’s SCA can be increased by +1 category, doubling his mass. A character’s SCA may be “sold back” with GM permission for 5 points for every -1 category, halving his mass.

 

Scale Table:

[ATTACH]31771[/ATTACH]

 

Power Translation for SCA

When a power designed for one SCA is used against a character of different SCA, it must be translated into the target’s SCA. To do this, the DC is adjusted up or down based on the difference in SCA between the attack and the target. Once the attack passes through this translation, all of the effects of that power are handled in terms of the new SCA.

 

Examples

Example A: A punch by a human (STR 10, DEX 10, SCA 0) against a pixie (STR 10, DEX 10, SCA -9) would be adjusted as follows: The pixie’s DCV would be raised by 6 versus the attack, and the DC of the attack would be raised by 9. The knockback of the attack would be calculated based on the damage generated by 11d6 (2d6 for STR, +9 DC), but the knockback distance would be in ¼ m hexes (the standard hex size at SCA -9).

 

Example B: Now, suppose the pixie threw a 15d6 EB (lightning bolt) at the human. The pixie’s OCV would be raised by 6 for the attack, and the DC of the attack would be reduced by 9. Assuming the range was 5 m, the range penalty would be calculated based on a distance of 20 hexes (each of the pixie’s hexes is ¼ m), for a total range penalty of -6. The knockback of the attack would be calculated based on the damage generated by 6d6 (15d6 EB, -9 DC), but the knockback distance would be in 2 m hexes (the standard hex size at SCA 0)

 

Adjusting a Power’s SCA

All of character’s powers normally operate at his SCA. The advantage: Large Scale allows for increasing the SCA of a power. It is a +¼ advantage per +1 category of SCA. The limitation: Small Scale allows for decreasing the SCA of a power. It is a -¼ limitation per -1 category of SCA. Changing the SCA of a power has the following effects:

• If the power has effects based on mass, the mass affected by the power is doubled for every +1 increase in SCA category and halved for every -1 decrease in SCA.

• The range and range adjustments for the power do not change. However, because the standard hex size changes as SCA changes the range in hexes will also change for a given distance in meters. This will then cause adjustments to range modifiers.

• The area in hexes for area effect powers does not change. However, because the standard hex size changes as SCA changes the effective area in square meters will also change.

 

SCA-based Conventions for Combat and Adventuring

By judging the dimensions of objects in a scenario, it is possible to assign a SCA to them. This SCA can then be used to create play conventions that help resolve certain ambiguities in the Hero combat rules that arise when characters are of very large or small size.

• Encumbrance Modifiers:

o An object with a SCA that differs by -3 or more from a character can be carried by that character, and its mass is counted normally for encumbrance purposes.

o An object with a SCA that differs by -2 to +2 from a character can be carried by that character, but its mass is multiplied by 2 for encumbrance purposes.

o An Object with a SCA that differs by +3 or more from a character can’t normally be carried by that character.

• Using Objects as Cover:

o An object with a SCA that differs from a character’s by +0 or more can be used as full cover.

o An object with a SCA that differs from a character’s by -1 to -3 can provide ¾ cover.

o An object with a SCA that differs from a character’s by -4 to -6 can provide ½ cover.

o An object with a SCA that differs from a character’s by -7 or more can’t provide cover.

• Using Objects as Weapons:

o An object with a SCA that differs from a character’s by -10 or more is too small to be used effectively as a weapon by that character.

o An object with a SCA that differs from a character’s by -9 to -3 can be used effectively as a weapon by that character.

o An object with a SCA that differs from a character’s by -2 to +0 can be used as a weapon by that character, but with a -2 OCV penalty due to its bulkiness.

o An object with a SCA that differs from a character’s by +1 or more is too large to be used effectively as a weapon by that character.

• Area Effect Attacks:

o An attack power can be used as an area effect against a single hex with a SCA that differs from its own by -9 or more, even if it was not defined as an area effect power. To use an attack power this way, apply the power’s standard range modifiers, then apply SCA modifiers (+6 DCV for SCA -9) to the DCV of the hex being targeted.

o An object with a SCA that differs by -3 or less from a target may be used as an area effect attack against that target. The hex that can be targeted is the same scale as the object, and its DCV should include modifiers for the SCA of the hex.

• Because SCA handles adjustments in the relative potency of powers of different sizes systematically, it is possible to assign BODY, PD, ED, and DEF to objects based on their materials and construction design alone. Thus, a steel I-beam might have DEF 14, BODY 10 regardless of whether it is SCA +0 (2 m long) or SCA -12 (12.5 cm long).

 

Shrinking and Growth

Adjustment powers applied to SCA take the place of Shrinking and Growth, which are no longer needed.

[Christougher]

Re: Alternate System: Size Stat

 

As discussed in chat, changing the table so that two increments is a doubling of size, not three. Positive scale only, the math is easier.

 

SCA Cost Hex Mass Height Lift Mod CV Mod DC Mod

+0 0 x 1 100 2 m +0 +0 +0

+1 5 x 1 200 3 m +5 -1 +1

+2 10 x 2 400 4 m +10 -2 +2

+3 15 x 2 800 6 m +15 -3 +3

+4 20 x 4 1,600 8 m +20 -4 +4

+5 25 x 4 3,200 12 m +25 -5 +5

+6 30 x 8 6,400 16 m +30 -6 +6

+7 35 x 8 12,800 24 m +35 -7 +7

+8 40 x 16 25,600 32 m +40 -8 +8

+9 45 x 16 51,200 48 m +45 -9 +9

+10 50 x 32 102,400 64 m +50 -10 +10

+11 55 x 32 204,800 96 m +55 -11 +11

+12 60 x 64 409,600 128 m +60 -12 +12