"Genetic Memory" as a power

[argent]

I want to design a race of beings who can access the knowledge/memories of their ancestors via dreams. They believe it's reincarnation, but actually this information is passed on biologically. When an individual spends at least 6 hours sleeping, he will experience vivid dreams of his (ancestor's) past lives. Theoretically, any fact or experience posessed by his ancestors can be accessed. This ability is not controllable, or even reliable, but if some pressing problem is weighing on the mind of an individual, he is likely to access a memory relating to the problem while sleeping; this memory may (or may not) contain information helpful to the dreamer.

 

So: the power would relate to memories and knowledge-type skills, can cover practically anything(except things ancestors would have no knowledge of, like current events), but is not reliable and requires at least several hours(of sleep) to use. How would this be built?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

I'd go with a limited versions of the various Universal skills in the Ulitmate skill. If you don't have that, perhaps cramming with dreams as a SFX, or perhaps also a highly limited Retrocog clairsentience.

[mattingly]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

Would the knowledge transfer only be KS (and possibly SS) type facts, or could it also cover hand-on facts like PSes and CHA-based skills?

 

Perk: Access to Knowledge of Ancestors; No Conscious Control

KS: Knowledge of Ancestors 11-; No Conscious Control

[argent]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

Thanks for your ideas so far.

 

As I envision it, the power would allow them to "know" things that their ancestors knew, that they had no way of knowing themselves, such as:

 

"I believe we'll find an oasis if we travel about 3 hours in *that* direction".

 

"This is the ancient rune meaning 'Danger'."

 

"We should avoid looking directly into these primitive tribespeople's eyes; they would interpret it as a challenge."

 

The power would NOT allow access to skills or skill sets posessed by ancestors. For example, it would not allow an individual to divine how to operate an unknown, complex machine. It might allow him to know which button turns it on, however.

 

Does that help?

[Lucius]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

Gurps Fantasy Folk had something like this. I created a race and character using it. One of his quirks was that every time he met an Elf he said "Hello Elf!" in Elvish. That was all he knew of that language; but at some point in the very distant past one of his ancestors must have known at least one Elf. As a species trait it gives you a built in reason to go "adventuring" as the more rich and varied your experience, the more you have to bequeth your descendents, and the more attrative you are to mates who want to reproduce.

 

I have a question; If this is biological, but they attribute it to reincarnation, how do they account for accessing memories from still living ancestors? I find it hard to believe that the most recent ancestors memories won't be the most accessible.

 

As for modeling it, possibly a couple levels of Cramming with a limitation, a Perk (compare it to "computer access" ) to justify accessing information not available to just anyone, and maybe a general KS: Ancestral Knowledge.

 

Edit: Having read your last post, I think either skip the Cramming or make it even more heavily limited. What you're describing sounds like it's limited to KS and SS type knowledge, possibly only as a Familiarity, or could maybe be covered as a general KS: Ancestral Knowledge that could be rolled (perhaps at penalties) whenever called for. It wouldn't, for example, include even 1 pt in a language, although it might reveal several important words.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

House of the Palindromedary

[sbarron]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

How about something like this?

 

Genetic Memory: Retrocognitive Clairsentience (Mental Group), 4 Perception Points - Multiple ancestors with similar knowledge (50 Active Points); Extra Time (6 Hours, -3 1/2), No Conscious Control (-2), Only Through Dreams (-1), Only Through The Senses Of Ancestors (-1/2)

 

Real Cost 6, END 5

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

Assuming that it doesn't actually give you skills, I'd definitely go with retrocognition.

[argent]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

I have a question; If this is biological' date=' but they attribute it to reincarnation, how do they account for accessing memories from still living ancestors? I find it hard to believe that the most recent ancestors memories won't be the most accessible.[/quote']

 

Good point. I hadn't envisioned the power allowing the character to realize whose memories they were experiencing; they would simply find themselves reliving a few seconds or minutes of some ancestor's life. Still, I think you're right: Either the most recent ancestor's memories are not frequently accessed (for whatever reason) or they would be unlikely to attribute the phenomenon to reincarnation.

 

I would like the player to be able to use the power to try to "get a clue" about some puzzle or problem, but I also want it to have a storytelling function, in that I could describe some image or brief scenario the character recalls from a dream, but does not appear to be helpful upon waking. That it is actually useful would not be apparent until later in the session.

 

I don't think Cramming would be viable, because I don't want the character to have access to skills he doesn't posess, just isolated fragments of (useful) knowledge.

 

It wouldn't, for example, include even 1 pt in a language, although it might reveal several important words.

 

Exactly!

 

How about something like this?

 

Genetic Memory: Retrocognitive Clairsentience (Mental Group), 4 Perception Points - Multiple ancestors with similar knowledge (50 Active Points); Extra Time (6 Hours, -3 1/2), No Conscious Control (-2), Only Through Dreams (-1), Only Through The Senses Of Ancestors (-1/2)

 

Real Cost 6, END 5

 

This might work, although I wouldn't want it tied to the character's current location (except insofar as his surroundings might "bring to mind" ancestral memories of similar places).

 

Any other thoughts?

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

If it is biological, then the most ancient memories will be the most entrenched.

 

Argue it either way: recent memories are most easily accessed or ancient memories have been accessed many times and so are written through every generation.

 

...

 

I'm getting the impression that this is probably a 'GM friendly' power. If so, buy it as 'KS: Knowledge of the ancestors (Superskill, No Conscious Control -2) 1 point'.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

...you might also/instead require a perk: access to genetic knowledge.

 

You could even buy it at different costs, given that a family who have been shepherds for generations, and lived in an isolated mountain valley PROBABLY don't have the same genetic memory as a family who count amongst their ancestors sailors, warriors, merchants and princes.

 

If it really is genetic then this is a very real consideration: your family tree determines what you might know.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

Sound to me like a simple KS: Genetic Memories of Ancestors, X-*, requires 6 hours of sleep.

 

I'd guess X should be fairly high, say 19- (I pick that just so it would come out to an even 10 active points). Since this is such a broad, general skill, the 19- is only for the most general knowledge. Somewhat more speciallized knowledge would have a -1 to -3 to the roll, and very specific knowledge could have as much as a -7 to -9 to the roll, or more.

 

Just like someone could take a SS: Science 19-, as a skill. They can answer broad, very general questions about science on a 19-, but highly specific and specialized scientific topics would be made at a much lower roll.

[Dust Raven]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

I'm with Phil on this. Take the easy road and make it a KS: What the Ancients Knew [big number]-.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

Several people have suggested KS, which is fine, but of course this gives you a very big knowledge pool, even if the knowledge is not quick to get at.

 

The GM will have to decide what use this is put to: if it is so that information can be fed into the game then it should be pretty cheap - afterall you are paying to be a plot device. If you can consciously decide to do this (right, I'm off to bed and in the morning I'll know the combination to the safe...) then it should be pretty expensive.

 

KS is definitely the easiest way to do it, although I do feel slightly odd about something so useful being built as a skill. I mean, KS: other people's memories is only a hop and a skip away....not saying it is wrong for THIS purpose, but you should make it very clear you are not setting any precedents.

[McCoy]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

Thanks for your ideas so far.

 

As I envision it, the power would allow them to "know" things that their ancestors knew, that they had no way of knowing themselves, such as:

 

"I believe we'll find an oasis if we travel about 3 hours in *that* direction".

 

"This is the ancient rune meaning 'Danger'."

 

"We should avoid looking directly into these primitive tribespeople's eyes; they would interpret it as a challenge."

 

The power would NOT allow access to skills or skill sets posessed by ancestors. For example, it would not allow an individual to divine how to operate an unknown, complex machine. It might allow him to know which button turns it on, however.

 

Does that help?

How about something like this?

 

Genetic Memory: Retrocognitive Clairsentience (Mental Group), 4 Perception Points - Multiple ancestors with similar knowledge (50 Active Points); Extra Time (6 Hours, -3 1/2), No Conscious Control (-2), Only Through Dreams (-1), Only Through The Senses Of Ancestors (-1/2)

 

Real Cost 6, END 5

That's how I'd do it.

 

Another possibility is just buy Luck, and to the outside observer it appears the character is making "lucky guesses," sometimes of amazing accuracy.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

The problem with retrocognition, as I realised once I'd suggested it (or should I say, endorsed the idea) is range. You can only know what happened near to you.

[Dust Raven]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

Several people have suggested KS, which is fine, but of course this gives you a very big knowledge pool, even if the knowledge is not quick to get at.

 

The GM will have to decide what use this is put to: if it is so that information can be fed into the game then it should be pretty cheap - afterall you are paying to be a plot device. If you can consciously decide to do this (right, I'm off to bed and in the morning I'll know the combination to the safe...) then it should be pretty expensive.

 

KS is definitely the easiest way to do it, although I do feel slightly odd about something so useful being built as a skill. I mean, KS: other people's memories is only a hop and a skip away....not saying it is wrong for THIS purpose, but you should make it very clear you are not setting any precedents.

 

Just how useful could this be? Sure there's a chance someone in the character's past knew the combination to this safe, but only if this safe existed at the time and such. This is pretty much just knowledge, and knowledge the character can't just spew out at the drop of a hat. For 3 points you get in INT Roll. Apply time modifiers for how long ago events happened (say, starting at -3 for 25 years/one generation and an additional -1 per step down the time chart) to represent how deep the memory is burred in the genetics. Apply additional modifiers based on how general or specific the information is, then give a base time of say 1 turn to recall any single bit of info.

 

Example, you want to recall the reasons behind a treaty signed long ago between two kingdoms/races/whatevers that are now threatening to go to war. You had no ancestors involved in the signing of the treaty, but one or two did live in one of the kingdoms at the time, so the GM says it'll be a -4 for the obscurity. The treaty was enacted some 200 years ago, so the GM imposes another -4 for a total of -8. If the character had an INT of 13, he's now have a -4 change to spit out the correct answer because he's already had a vision of this event (or some other excuse as to why he'd already have the knowledge in his head). Or he could take a nap and dream about it really hard, gaining a +5 bonus for taking extra time and how can recall the info on a 9-. It'd be even easier if he actually had an ancestor involving in the signing, or at least politically active in society at the time, or perhaps directly affected by the result of the treaty. The memory would be stronger, reducing the penalty and perhaps granting a bonus.

 

In any case, since all these modifiers are in the hands of the GM and are completely arbitrary, there is no harm is using this as a Skill.

 

Alternately...

Genetic Memory: Retrocognitive Clairsentience (Sight And Hearing Groups) (50 Active Points); Extra Time (6 Hours, Character May Take No Other Actions, -3 3/4), Conditional Power (can only perceive events taking place around a direct ancestor of the character; -1), Only Through Dreams (-1), Retrocognition Only (-1), Time Modifiers (-1/2) Real Cost: 6.

 

This will end up having the same effect as the KS, only without the obscurity modifier. It also costs 3 points more, which could equate to a +3 to the KS roll to counter the obscurity modifiers. All in all about the same, just one takes up much less space on the character sheet.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

Just how useful could this be? Sure there's a chance someone in the character's past knew the combination to this safe, but only if this safe existed at the time and such. This is pretty much just knowledge, and knowledge the character can't just spew out at the drop of a hat. For 3 points you get in INT Roll. Apply time modifiers for how long ago events happened (say, starting at -3 for 25 years/one generation and an additional -1 per step down the time chart) to represent how deep the memory is burred in the genetics. Apply additional modifiers based on how general or specific the information is, then give a base time of say 1 turn to recall any single bit of info.

 

Example, you want to recall the reasons behind a treaty signed long ago between two kingdoms/races/whatevers that are now threatening to go to war. You had no ancestors involved in the signing of the treaty, but one or two did live in one of the kingdoms at the time, so the GM says it'll be a -4 for the obscurity. The treaty was enacted some 200 years ago, so the GM imposes another -4 for a total of -8. If the character had an INT of 13, he's now have a -4 change to spit out the correct answer because he's already had a vision of this event (or some other excuse as to why he'd already have the knowledge in his head). Or he could take a nap and dream about it really hard, gaining a +5 bonus for taking extra time and how can recall the info on a 9-. It'd be even easier if he actually had an ancestor involving in the signing, or at least politically active in society at the time, or perhaps directly affected by the result of the treaty. The memory would be stronger, reducing the penalty and perhaps granting a bonus.

 

In any case, since all these modifiers are in the hands of the GM and are completely arbitrary, there is no harm is using this as a Skill.

 

Alternately...

Genetic Memory: Retrocognitive Clairsentience (Sight And Hearing Groups) (50 Active Points); Extra Time (6 Hours, Character May Take No Other Actions, -3 3/4), Conditional Power (can only perceive events taking place around a direct ancestor of the character; -1), Only Through Dreams (-1), Retrocognition Only (-1), Time Modifiers (-1/2) Real Cost: 6.

 

This will end up having the same effect as the KS, only without the obscurity modifier. It also costs 3 points more, which could equate to a +3 to the KS roll to counter the obscurity modifiers. All in all about the same, just one takes up much less space on the character sheet.

 

If Chosisimus The Namer, a powerful mage who knerw the True Names of every creature that walked, crawled or flew was one of your anscestors, potentially pretty useful. You might know the location of buried treasure. You might know all sorts of things, including, as has been mentioned, languages and such...

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't, but this is one case where you'd definitely want to pick your relations, and, given that you are creating a character, you could....

[McCoy]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

Just how useful could this be?

Depends on the campagine.

 

Modern world, probably not so much. Things changed A LOT in the 20th century, the houses my parents grew up in aren't there any more, some of my ancestrial lands are now under water, agriculture has changed to the point that my great grandfather probably could not get a job as a farm hand. Many of the skills my ancestors had are for obsolete technology. For example, I was five when my father taught me to use a slide rule, care to guess when I last used that?

 

However, in a fantasy hero campagine, where you have the same job as your father, and his father before him, and his father before him, you would get really good at your job. If your family has hunted the same woodlands for ten generations, you would know every bend in the stream, where the animals go for water, what the prevailing winds are at different times of year, how to find shelter from the storms and know which way a wildfire will spread, what local plants are edible, medicinal, or poisionous.

 

Now what if your great-great-grandfather lived in the castle your party has under siege or is trying to sneak into. If as a child he played hide-and-seek in the secret escape passages.

 

I can see times when this would come in very handy.

[Dust Raven]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

Depends on the campagine.

 

Modern world, probably not so much. Things changed A LOT in the 20th century, the houses my parents grew up in aren't there any more, some of my ancestrial lands are now under water, agriculture has changed to the point that my great grandfather probably could not get a job as a farm hand. Many of the skills my ancestors had are for obsolete technology. For example, I was five when my father taught me to use a slide rule, care to guess when I last used that?

 

However, in a fantasy hero campagine, where you have the same job as your father, and his father before him, and his father before him, you would get really good at your job. If your family has hunted the same woodlands for ten generations, you would know every bend in the stream, where the animals go for water, what the prevailing winds are at different times of year, how to find shelter from the storms and know which way a wildfire will spread, what local plants are edible, medicinal, or poisionous.

 

Now what if your great-great-grandfather lived in the castle your party has under siege or is trying to sneak into. If as a child he played hide-and-seek in the secret escape passages.

 

I can see times when this would come in very handy.

 

Then why not just also by PS: [Family Job] and AK: Home Area as well? As for the caste's hiding places, that would have to be a damn good coincidence (common in fiction though, but still limiting in that the GM could just say "no he didn't"), and also could not be easily used at a moment's notice. "Oh no, we're under siege! If only they'd lay off for a few hours so i can take a nap!" or if the other way around they'd be more likely to have the time, but not necessarily so. And then you still gotta make that roll.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

Then why not just also by PS: [Family Job] and AK: Home Area as well? As for the caste's hiding places' date=' that would have to be a damn good coincidence (common in fiction though, but still limiting in that the GM could just say "no he didn't"), and also could not be easily used at a moment's notice. "Oh no, we're under siege! If only they'd lay off for a few hours so i can take a nap!" or if the other way around they'd be more likely to have the time, but not necessarily so. And then you [i']still[/i] gotta make that roll.

 

However you dress it up, what is being advocated is KS: someone else's knowledge.

 

Adding limitations to a dodgy concept is like adding seasoning to an unpleasant meal, it might well make it easier to swallow, but it doesn't change the fact that you made a mess of it in the first place.

[Greatwyrm]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

I'm no HERO expert, but I'll offer an alternative. How about a modified form of Cramming? IIRC, it gives you a 8- on a skill. Instead of preparing ahead of time, you prepare it with a night's sleep, still only usable once per adventure per purcahse.

[Dust Raven]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

However you dress it up, what is being advocated is KS: someone else's knowledge.

 

Adding limitations to a dodgy concept is like adding seasoning to an unpleasant meal, it might well make it easier to swallow, but it doesn't change the fact that you made a mess of it in the first place.

 

Exactly why I suggested using a Skill. No messy builds or a need for Limitations (or Modifiers of any kind).

 

Note: Almost every KS is KS: Someone else's knowledge. Unless everything you know you just made up, most of your knowledge you learned from other people and the environment. In this case, "genetic memory" is just a somewhat unique method of gaining that knowledge.

[sbarron]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

I still see retrocog as the way to go here. This is clearly a GM centric power, and will only work when the GM decides to have it do so. All this talk about KS roles misses the point that its totally unreliable. The OP said "This ability is not controllable, or even reliable." You don't sleep for 6 hours and get what you need if you make a role. You sleep for 6 hours and if the GM decides some ancestors might have had information that would help you, then you gives it to you. Total GM fiat.

 

From the description I also don't see it giving the character skills. Again, the OP "Theoretically, any fact or experience posessed by his ancestors can be accessed." It just gives the character information. See clairsentience. And from the examples used by the OP, usually the information will be tied to a location, which means that range isn't a problem. The ancestor clearly had to be in that castle, in the oasis, or dealing with the tribe that the character is dealing with. Which means unless the tribe moved in the meantime, it likely the ancestor was standing very near where the PC was sleeping.

 

I personally never feel comfortable charging a player 1 or 2 pts for an ability this open ended. That's why I thought the 5 or 6 pts with limited retrocog really priced out well.

 

Well, that's my pitch for my idea. Back to hiding easter eggs.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

I agree with sbarron that retrocgnition seems the most relevant approach, based on the description of the ability. Is the Range issue a big deal? Make it Megascale. Realistically, it's more of a group of floating perception points ("where ancestors have been").

 

Genetic Memory: Retrocognitive Clairsentience (Mental Group), 4 Perception Points - Multiple ancestors with similar knowledge (50 Active Points); Extra Time (6 Hours, -3 1/2), No Conscious Control (-2), Only Through Dreams (-1), Only Through The Senses Of Ancestors (-1/2)

 

Real Cost 6, END 5

 

There's those four perception points...

 

You could also add a side effect, since it's possible the character could wake up firmly believing he has the answer (provided by his ancestors) when, in fact, he has memories of a real dream, not any genetic memory, which may well lead him astray.

 

Ultimately, I think the bigger question is "what are you going to make this worth?", since the ability is totally under GM control. The cost should be commensurate with the value it will have. A lot depends on who my ancestors were, as Sean points out. A lot also depends on the nature of the campaign. If we never travel more than 100 miles from the location my family has lived in for 100 generations, there's likely to be a lot of useful data. If this is a planet-hopping Star Hero game and my people only recently discovered life on other planets, not so useful.

 

As to the issue of "remembering" living ancestor memories, perhaps their mythology likens sleep to death. When you are deep in sleep, you voyage to the Land of the Ancestors, allowing them to visit you in dreams. If your recent ancestors are asleep, they can also be there. Really, unless you access these memories while the original person is standibg awake over you, how would they ever know?

[Dust Raven]

Re: "Genetic Memory" as a power

 

I still see retrocog as the way to go here. This is clearly a GM centric power' date=' and will only work when the GM decides to have it do so. All this talk about KS roles misses the point that its totally unreliable. The OP said "[u']This ability is not controllable, or even reliable[/u]." You don't sleep for 6 hours and get what you need if you make a role. You sleep for 6 hours and if the GM decides some ancestors might have had information that would help you, then you gives it to you. Total GM fiat.

 

This is probably dipping into rant territory, but in the circles I tend to play with, no one pays points for GM fiat. The GM gets that for free.