Real Armor & Falling Damage

[JMHammer]

I don't want to start another long thread about how well Hero manages to represent the damage one takes when one falls off a 6-story building onto the pavement. But...

 

Ralph, Randy, and Rupert are identical triplets, all with PD 4. Ralph is wearing a business suit (Def 0) and empties his pockets of keys, cellphone, and other sharp or blunt objects. Randy is wearing a suit of full plate mail (Def 5) from his armor collection. Rupert is wearing Super Power Armor (rPD 10, rED 10) that his genius stepsister invented for him. All three jump off a typical urban apartment building which is six stories tall - let's just say it's 10".

 

All three brothers jump from the building and impact the ground simultaneously (but don't land on top of each other or other such nonsense). All take 10d6 of damage if I'm remembering the simple falling damage system correctly, although if it's some other number it doesn't really matter. And let's forget about using strength or other powers or cute tricks to reduce damage. Furthermore, let's just say that all three take 10 Body and 35 Stun before applying defenses.

 

So, Ralph takes (10-4=) 6 Body and (35-4=) 31 Stun. He's almost certainly unconscious from that much Stun damage. The GM might want to rule that Ralph broke his legs or something, too, since this "attack" did more than 1/2 his unmodified body total.

 

Randy takes (10-9=) 1 Body and (35-9=) 26 Stun. He's probably unconscious, too, although not by all that much. And while he's hurt, it won't be anything disabling or even annoying as long as he doesn't make that jump more than 8 more times...

 

Rupert takes (10-14=) 0 Body and (35-14=) 21 Stun. He might be conscious - if he's anything better than a straight normal he'll be awake - although he'll probably be Stunned. Two Phases later he picks himself off the ground and goes up for another jump.

 

Although that fall didn't kill Ralph, it did hurt him pretty badly. If he were attempting to commit suicide with a jump like that he could get the "benefit" of the Head hit location and be dead with anything but a VERY low dice roll. This seems reasonable and feels about right.

 

Rupert is in Super Power Armor. When we talk about stuff like that, or a force field, or similar things that don't exist in the real world, I'm willing to believe almost anything. So, I have no trouble with Rupert getting up from a jump like that and walking away completely in one piece and ready to do it again on a bet.

 

But Randy, in his "real" armor, should break his legs or pop like a water balloon just as did Ralph with no armor at all. Maybe even worse! Put Randy in a kevlar vest, a SCUBA suit, or anything else "real" short of in the center of a rubber ball or 200 feet of rolled carpet and it should end the same way. This is where the system doesn't work for me and feels false.

 

I think that any armor that takes the "real armor" limitation or does not provide full coverage should not provide any protection from things like falls.

 

I'm also trying to come up with something similar regarding "real" armor and things like heat attacks (Won't you roast just as well, or better, inside your "real" metal shell?), area effect shock waves and the like.

 

Comments?

John H

[Vondy]

Since it has the real armor disadvantage the GM can simply rule that real armor doesn't protect people from the impact of falls, or has seriously reduced effectiveness.

 

In truth, the character is impacting the inside of their armor just as hard as they would the pavement, and further, armor can be dented, causing additional trauma if they land on an uneven surface.

 

With that said the type of armor would have an impact on the adjudication of the issue. Padded or thick leather would be more forgiving than plate in a fall.

[Yamo]

Personally, I almost always convert falling damage dice to Killing. Much more realistic that way and solves most of these problems.

[Mentor]

Originally posted by Yamo

Personally, I almost always convert falling damage dice to Killing. Much more realistic that way and solves most of these problems.

Sounds like you're on the right track. Real Armor is a limitation, so it is reasonable for that limitation to be a reduction or elimination from the effects of falling damage. I always try to remember the special effect, as well. As D Man posts, the SFX of padded or leather armor should mitigate the result without needing a rule change or an arguement. You are just using common sense.

[RadeFox]

Ive had GM's who also convert the damage to killing. They did have some variants though...

 

Making an acrobatics or breakfall roll would allow you to convert some or all of the damage back to normal, based on how well you rolled.

 

The killing damage was sometimes fully armor piercing. (no amount of hardened would help you, unless it was armor designed to take falling damage, which was never seen {huge rubber ball suit??}), thus falling almost always hurt.

[Tech]

Originally posted by RadeFox

Ive had GM's who also convert the damage to killing. They did have some variants though...

 

Making an acrobatics or breakfall roll would allow you to convert some or all of the damage back to normal, based on how well you rolled.

 

The killing damage was sometimes fully armor piercing. (no amount of hardened would help you, unless it was armor designed to take falling damage, which was never seen {huge rubber ball suit??}), thus falling almost always hurt.

 

Interesting but I would never make it armor piercing. How many countless superheroes have fallen from great heights and not been injured? If we refer only to armor, as in plate armor and such, I still wouldn't make it AP, as such a campaign would probably be in the heroic range anyways, IMHO, and would be overkill.

[Vondy]

I have three issues with making it killing damage:

 

1. For a normal human (8 Body, 2 PD), 10d6 of normal damage is lethal. It will do 8 body after defenses, meaning they will be disabled, impaired, unconscious, and dying.

 

2. Clubs can kill people too, but like the ground they are blunt, and they do normal damage.

 

3. The Real Armor disadvantage means the mechanic doesn't have to be changed because real armor doesn't offer protection from falling damage.

[Snarf]

I agree that the real armor limitation handles the problem.

 

Usually, I lump all considerations of realism, including those not specifically mentioned in the rules, into the real weapon and real armor limitations. If it's not real, it works exactly how the rules read, but if it is, it behaves as you would expect from using common sense. I consider barehanded attacks and defenses "real" in most campaign worlds.

[AnotherSkip]

Im not sure I agree with some of the assumptions here.......

 

I used to Sca and I used the Loaner gear.

 

When i charged an opponent and my kneecups locked together (gotta love sideffects.... Grrrr)

I fell.

 

I fall pretty frequently and going all out then falling is pretty common with me

 

Will add more later......

[Killer Shrike]

A fall from 60 feet onto pavement should do more than just put a norm to 0 Body on an average roll. It should kill them or leave them very near death, with such massive trauma that they are permanently disabled.

 

I use both methods in non-supers games. I convert to killing damage, and Real Armor does not apply to falling damage.

[lemming]

Well, I would probably say "Real" Armor would be at 1/2 effectiveness. It's pretty useless for the inital impact, but if someone tumbled down a gravel slope, they'd be better off in armor. Kind of like one wears kneepads, etc... for rollerblading. I'm pretty sure Plate, etc... still has the padding inside, so it would be a bit of protection.

So whenever I get around to running a FH game, I'll probably treat most "real" armor as AP. Normal PD would not be pierced.

[Gary]

Falling damage is weird. First of all, damage scales linearly instead of exponentially like the rest of the system. Thus you get bizarre results such as a terminal velocity fall causing more damage than a tank shell or a missile!

 

Then there is the fact that there are 2 components to falling damage. Falling should probably be broken up into 2 attacks:

 

1) A normal attack to simulate the impact. Armor of all sorts including plate mail would protect from this part.

 

2) A NND or AVLD vs lack of weakness or something like that to simulate the instantaneous deceleration part of the fall.

 

Thus a 10" fall would do 10D6 normal plus 10D6 NND. This should be enough to kill a normal instantaneously.

[Hugh Neilson]

But, oddly, some people do durvive falling a great distance. If we want to address realism, people also die from falling on the sidewalk - 1d6 at most under the Hero system.

 

And how realistic are weapons' damage? The biggest weapons on the table on p 329 inflicts 2d6+1 KA - average of 8 BOD. If we assume the wielder has STR of 31 (well above "human"), he gets 3d6+1 (2 handed weapon for 16 STR min), so average of 11.5 - enough to disable a human, but he can't kill a 10 BOD human with a chest or stomach hit.

 

A stiletto, with maximum STR adds, can only inflict 7 BOD, so can't instantly kill a man stabbed in the throat, eye or heart.Bows are similarly limited. Nothing under a heavy weapon can kill instantly without a head/vitals shot and a good BOD roll, and many can get both and still leave a living victim. Can a 20 BOD man be killed instantly by a Luger P-08? I suggest he can - but not in Hero!

 

Would it be unreasonable of me to suggest that, perhaps, realism should be sacrificed in the interests of playability? It's not a lot of fun spending 95% of your game time creating new characters to replace the deceased.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

But, oddly, some people do durvive falling a great distance. If we want to address realism, people also die from falling on the sidewalk - 1d6 at most under the Hero system.

 

And how realistic are weapons' damage? The biggest weapons on the table on p 329 inflicts 2d6+1 KA - average of 8 BOD. If we assume the wielder has STR of 31 (well above "human"), he gets 3d6+1 (2 handed weapon for 16 STR min), so average of 11.5 - enough to disable a human, but he can't kill a 10 BOD human with a chest or stomach hit.

 

A stiletto, with maximum STR adds, can only inflict 7 BOD, so can't instantly kill a man stabbed in the throat, eye or heart.Bows are similarly limited. Nothing under a heavy weapon can kill instantly without a head/vitals shot and a good BOD roll, and many can get both and still leave a living victim. Can a 20 BOD man be killed instantly by a Luger P-08? I suggest he can - but not in Hero!

 

Would it be unreasonable of me to suggest that, perhaps, realism should be sacrificed in the interests of playability? It's not a lot of fun spending 95% of your game time creating new characters to replace the deceased.

 

Use the bleeding option & hit locations and get back to me about that stilletto not being lethal.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

A stiletto, with maximum STR adds, can only inflict 7 BOD, so can't instantly kill a man stabbed in the throat, eye or heart.Bows are similarly limited. Nothing under a heavy weapon can kill instantly without a head/vitals shot and a good BOD roll, and many can get

 

Except that this IS realistic.

 

The "instant kill" so beloved of certain gamers is very hard to get IRL. About the only way to kill someone instantly is to thoroughly destroy their brain stem; hence the suicide method of shooting yourself in the mouth. That blows out the base of the brain and is as instant a kill as you'll see.

 

The vast majority of the time, even what doctors will list as "immediate death" takes several minutes of bleeding, etc. This notion of stabbing someone once with a knife and they keel over dead is wildly unreal. I realize Hero is meant to simulate fiction, but let's at least try to simulate believeable fiction, OK? You want to find the guy who just stabbed someone to death? Look for someone exhausted and covered with blood.

 

Use the HL rules and STUN rules, and you will get a better simulation of reality than you may think.

 

Where Hero really falls short in realism is this notion of being knocked unconscious and waking back up later with no permanent damage. In reality, if you are knocked unconscious, that means there is something broken in yo haid. Concussion, at least.

 

However, the rules as they stand reflect good heroic fiction pretty well. Which is just the way I like it. Trying to be utterly realistic in an RPG leads to madness (so does throwing out all realism - then you have Toon

 

BTW, to HTML experts - how would I have made that "Toon" into a hyperlink to the sjgames website? I know it's a fairly simple statement, but I don't remember it.

[Arthur]

More OT:

 

I rule that Real Armor gives half its DEF vs. falling damage. It protects womewhat against the impact, but can do nothing about the rapid deceleration. Even with the best padding, you still have internal bodily fluids declerating at umpteen gees. However, the armor can absorb some of the impact with the ground (or whatever).