Move Through Interception

[Blue]

Greased Lightning decides to perform a movethrough on a target 20" away. He has a movement rate of 30" and accellerates as fast as he can.

 

Problem is, the mystic Nairobi puts up a spell; It's an entangle with "Invisible Power Effect", (only for building a wall) right between the two targets. Greased Lightning will hit the full 30" rate by the time he hits that wall (which is at the 10" mark). We'll say it's 7 DEF/ 7 BODY.

 

--Does GL take the full 14D6 because he couldn't prepare for the wall

 

--Does GL take half because he was at least prepared for a movethrough, even if it was considerably further away than where it actually happened.

 

--Assuming he's still conscious (which is highly likely for someone who would do a 30" move through on purpose) he would presumably be moving 14" slower than before hitting the wall (16" rate). With 10" still between him and his original target, should he still be able to get up to a 30" rate?

[dbsousa]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

I would rule that GL does a movethrough on the wall, doing the same damage to the wall and himself as if he had made a successful hit on the target, with an upper limit of 14d6 (7 BODY, 7 DEF)

 

Furthermore, since a movethrough allows you to move with the target or stop, I would let GL continue to his target...

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

Personaly, I would give Greased Lightning a "Non-targeting" Perception roll to see if he 'senses' something, in which case he can brace for the impact and do normal Move-through damage to the Entangle. If the Perception roll fails, he hits it at full velocity, unknowingly, taking full damage, but doing full damage to the entangle. If he's not K.O.ed or Stunned and the Entangle goes down, he can continue with his move-through as normal...though he might not want to, depending on how much stun he has left!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

How about options C, D and E?

 

Let GL roll his Move Through damage and count BODY.

 

• If he does less than 14 BODY he takes his FULL Move Through damage from hitting the Entangle and stops (just like hitting a character and doing no Knockback).
  
• If he does between 14 and 20 BODY he destroys the Entangle and takes 1/2 of his Move Through Damage but should probably lose control of the rest of his movement. He might continue moving at reduced velocity (GM call) but has 0 chance of hitting original target.
  
• If he does more than 21 BODY (breaking out of the Entangle by twice its BODY) he takes 1/2 damage per the standard Move Through rules and continues on to the target. You could impose a -3 or more OCV penalty (consider it a Suprise Sweep).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

Interesting question.

 

If GL (coincidence?) was just flying at 30"/phase and hit a wall he could not see, what damage would he do?

 

V/3?

 

(30xSPD/12)d6? (based on 1d6 per inch move per segment, like falling)

 

Does the fact that he intends to move through something 10" away mean that he has already tensed and so is using STR? If so he presumably does full move through damage.

 

Now part of the answer (as I belive HyperMan was alluding to) may be in the fact we are dealing with an entangle, once we have sorted out the damage the does - arguably you need to do 21 BODY (DEF + 2xBODY) to break through an entangle and still be able to complete a full phase action (page 432), whereas if he only manages 14-20 BODY he only gets a half phase action, so his maximum move is 15", and as he has alerady taken 10" this phase, he only goes 5" more and does not get to the target.

 

Of course whether the same rules apply for breaking out of an entangle and breaking through an entangle barrier is anyone's guess.

 

Probably not, on balance.

 

Here's how I'd ad hoc it:

 

(v/3 + Casual STR/5)d6 for damage, as a move through.

 

If you do 14 or more BODY you break through and continue (you can do a full move on a MT that knocks back or otherwise removes the target) and take half damage. The rules don't specifically allow for multiple MTs but I'd allow the intended attack to go in at -2 OCV, as if it was a multiple.

 

If you do less than 14 BODY you take full damage and either stop or fly backwards, depending on the KB roll.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

Would anyone's answers change if instead of a IPE Entangle it was an IPE Force Wall with 14 PD?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

Would anyone's answers change if instead of a IPE Entangle it was an IPE Force Wall with 14 PD?

 

My ad hoc answer wouldn't. That was the very point I had in mind when I wrote it: the rules for entangle breakout seem nonsenical to use for entangle barriers which should act like any other barriers, including FWs.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

Greased Lightning decides to perform a movethrough on a target 20" away. He has a movement rate of 30" and accellerates as fast as he can.

 

Problem is, the mystic Nairobi puts up a spell; It's an entangle with "Invisible Power Effect", (only for building a wall) right between the two targets. Greased Lightning will hit the full 30" rate by the time he hits that wall (which is at the 10" mark). We'll say it's 7 DEF/ 7 BODY.

 

I would need to know a bit more about the SFX involved, the rest of the environment and GL's STR. For the moment, I'll assume a few things.

 

GL's movement is Running and has the SFX of running really fast. Basically normal human running at high speed.

SFX of the Entangle a magical invisible wall, 1 hex high, 1 hex wide & 1/8 hex thick, and is similar to concrete in structure. The Entangle is IPE all sense groups.

The ground is otherwise flat, featureless and level. The target is aware of GL and the wall, GL is unaware of the wall but knows Nairobi did something (I don't care if Nairobi is the target, it doesn't matter).

GL has a STR of 20.

 

With those assumptions...

 

 

GL smacks into the wall at full speed, performing an uncontrolled Move Through on the invisible wall, doing 14d6 damage. Because his Move Through is uncontrolled, both he and the wall take full damage. Assuming he rolls rather average (14 BODY 50 STUN), the wall will be destroyed. If GL has any movement left and is not Stunned or Knocked Out, he may continue forward at full speed and even complete his Move Through on his target. If GL rolls less than 14 BODY, he's stopped by the wall.

 

Optionally, GL is required to roll x2 remaining BODY on the Entangle to continue moving unhindered (total of 21 in a single hit). Less than this, but at least 14 and GL loses the remainder of his Phase crashing through it, but continues on his next Phase normally. Less than 14 BODY means he stops.

 

As for the FW, that's the first option only and the option stuff is ignored. He's either through at full speed, or he's not through and the FW is still up.

[Rapier]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

I would need to know a bit more about the SFX involved, the rest of the environment and GL's STR. For the moment, I'll assume a few things.

 

GL's movement is Running and has the SFX of running really fast. Basically normal human running at high speed.

SFX of the Entangle a magical invisible wall, 1 hex high, 1 hex wide & 1/8 hex thick, and is similar to concrete in structure. The Entangle is IPE all sense groups.

The ground is otherwise flat, featureless and level. The target is aware of GL and the wall, GL is unaware of the wall but knows Nairobi did something (I don't care if Nairobi is the target, it doesn't matter).

GL has a STR of 20.

 

With those assumptions...

 

 

GL smacks into the wall at full speed, performing an uncontrolled Move Through on the invisible wall, doing 14d6 damage. Because his Move Through is uncontrolled, both he and the wall take full damage. Assuming he rolls rather average (14 BODY 50 STUN), the wall will be destroyed. If GL has any movement left and is not Stunned or Knocked Out, he may continue forward at full speed and even complete his Move Through on his target. If GL rolls less than 14 BODY, he's stopped by the wall.

 

Optionally, GL is required to roll x2 remaining BODY on the Entangle to continue moving unhindered (total of 21 in a single hit). Less than this, but at least 14 and GL loses the remainder of his Phase crashing through it, but continues on his next Phase normally. Less than 14 BODY means he stops.

 

As for the FW, that's the first option only and the option stuff is ignored. He's either through at full speed, or he's not through and the FW is still up.

 

Bang on!! We've had this come up a couple of times and this sounds, if I'm understanding it correctly (its kind of early still), that is exactly how we handled it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

Bang on!! We've had this come up a couple of times and this sounds' date=' if I'm understanding it correctly (its kind of early still), that is exactly how we handled it.[/quote']

 

Cool! 'Cuz I'm just guessing. It's the same rules I use for running through walls (like normal walls, Bricks to this a lot). I figure why not apply them here as well.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

I'd still be inclined to use casual strength if the move through was unintentional or unexpected.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

I'd still be inclined to use casual strength if the move through was unintentional or unexpected.

For a more complicated system, you could roll for casual STR first and if that breaks through, keep going (same rules for shrugging past obstacles, but there is a big difference between shrugging past something and slamming into it completely unaware). If not, roll full STR and take damage. But my way if just faster (and potentially more painful).

[TaxiMan]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

Seems like you could impose a -1" movement speed for every 1 BODY taken in a movethrough. At -14" of velocity, it'd take 3" to come back up to full speed. Seems realistic that blasting through sandbags or a wall or whatever would slow you down.

 

Of course, there's nothing in the rules like that as far as I know.

 

In the end, do whatever is the most fun.

[Rapier]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

Seems like you could impose a -1" movement speed for every 1 BODY taken in a movethrough. At -14" of velocity, it'd take 3" to come back up to full speed. Seems realistic that blasting through sandbags or a wall or whatever would slow you down.

 

Of course, there's nothing in the rules like that as far as I know.

 

In the end, do whatever is the most fun.

 

Well, there are the rules for KB through a barrier. That is pretty much what we are talking about, more or less.

 

But you are correct that there would definately be some kind of velocity penalty for hitting that intervening wall.

[wylodmayer]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

This brings up an interesting point, though, is it really true that the rules don't allow for multiple Moves Through?

 

I mean, I never really considered it, but doesn't it seem like as long as the person making the Move Through has movement left after taking damage from it, he should be able to continue in a more or less straight line, hitting anything in his path? This is, I believe, in genre for superhero games - there are several villains that use just this sort of tactic.

 

Hm... a check of the rules seem to indicate that you can keep moving after hitting someone, assuming you weren't stopped in your tracks - it would make sense that if there is someone in that line, you could hit that person, too.

 

Might a Move Through be then treated as a sort of AE: Line, allowing Dive for Cover as a defense?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

This brings up an interesting point, though, is it really true that the rules don't allow for multiple Moves Through?

 

I mean, I never really considered it, but doesn't it seem like as long as the person making the Move Through has movement left after taking damage from it, he should be able to continue in a more or less straight line, hitting anything in his path? This is, I believe, in genre for superhero games - there are several villains that use just this sort of tactic.

 

Hm... a check of the rules seem to indicate that you can keep moving after hitting someone, assuming you weren't stopped in your tracks - it would make sense that if there is someone in that line, you could hit that person, too.

 

Might a Move Through be then treated as a sort of AE: Line, allowing Dive for Cover as a defense?

 

As I understand it, if a character wants to make multiple attacks in one phase with Move Through he must use Sweep. But as has been stated already, this particular situation is not really covered in the rules.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

Well, there are the rules for KB through a barrier. That is pretty much what we are talking about, more or less.

 

But you are correct that there would definitely be some kind of velocity penalty for hitting that intervening wall.

Definitely a velocity penalty, but the rules for reduced KB after going through a wall shouldn't apply. KB is unpowered, You just go until you stop. When you're using a Movement Power, you go until you want to stop. In my suggestion, you either punch through as if through paper (you just had that much force) or you stop. I'm starting to like the idea of reducing velocity, but not reducing total inches moved in a Phase. That way you would easily protect people from a Move Through by placing that barrier an inch or two in front of the target and not giving the attack enough room to build back up to full velocity.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

This brings up an interesting point, though, is it really true that the rules don't allow for multiple Moves Through?

 

I mean, I never really considered it, but doesn't it seem like as long as the person making the Move Through has movement left after taking damage from it, he should be able to continue in a more or less straight line, hitting anything in his path? This is, I believe, in genre for superhero games - there are several villains that use just this sort of tactic.

 

Hm... a check of the rules seem to indicate that you can keep moving after hitting someone, assuming you weren't stopped in your tracks - it would make sense that if there is someone in that line, you could hit that person, too.

 

Might a Move Through be then treated as a sort of AE: Line, allowing Dive for Cover as a defense?

 

I think it is disallowed because the only potential target in the path would be the guy you already hit. You can only keep moving if the target takes KB, and that KB is going to be in the direction of the movement. So if the KB is low enough, and the Movement is high enough, you could slam into someone then run them over, all in the same action. Sounds abusive.

 

Then again, I like allowing people to slam target's into walls and do damage three times in the Phase. Once for the original Move Through, once for the KB into the wall behind the target, and once more for the "uncontrolled" Move Through as the attacker hits the target again. I allow this primarily because the damage done is usually low or the attacker is almost always left barely conscious.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

As I understand it' date=' if a character wants to make multiple attacks in one phase with Move Through he must use Sweep. But as has been stated already, this particular situation is not really covered in the rules.[/quote']

 

Page 397 covers this now I look at it properly: you CAN multiple move through using sweep (and that seems to be the only way you can multiple move through) BUT ONLY if all targets are in adjacent hexes.

 

That would indicate that, in the current scenario posed in the lead post of the thread, you cannot pull off a second attack as the intended target is not adjacent to the invisible barrier.

 

That or you need to use some other mechanic than move through to get through the invisible barrier.

[Rapier]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

Ok, lets throw some numbers in this:

 

Mack is a brick. Mack runs around and does LOTS of movethroughs. It's his schtick. Mack attacks (MACK ATTACK!) the Silver Ferret who is standing there concentrating on keeping one of Mack's teammates immobile with her TK.

 

Mack has 25" of Running and a 30 STR. When Mack begins his attack he is 8" away from Silver Ferret. Silver Ferret sees Mack coming and aborts to pop up a 10 DEF Invisible Force Wall 2" in front of her. Mack hits the ForceWall in an uncontrolled MoveThru.

 

Mack is doing his normal MoveThru damage: 6d6 (STR) + 8d6 (Velocity of 25" / 3) for 14d6 damage. Mack rolls his damage on the ForceWall: 59 STUN and 17 BODY (WHOA, now THATS a ROLL!). The FW drops because Mack exceeded it's DEF. Mack also takes the full 14d6 damage as if he hit the ground (uncontrolled movement striking an object, ala KB). Mack's a big guy so takes the hit and continues on his path to strike Silver Ferrett, but now he's at 15" (25" of movement - 10 DEF worth of Velocity). In the next two hexes he speeds up and reaches his full movement (25") just as he strikes Silver Ferret.

 

This is just another standard movethru so no need to go into it all again, but I would mention that Mack is now at a -2 (along with the -5 for velocity for a total of -8). Unless Mack has a few levels (which he does because he REALLY likes MoveThrus) he isn't going to hit!

 

Now, if the FW had 20 DEF? Mack would take all the damage and stop dead right there, since he only did 17 BODY.

 

What if Silver Ferret had only been 1" from the FW? Mack would have only been able to reach 20" of movement and now his full 25".

 

What if Silver Ferret (and this part gets hairy): Silver Ferret was initially 25" away from Mack. He could do his MoveThru but its at the very end of his movement (a total and complete full move just to reach her). After he goes through the FW, and loses all that momentum, can he still reach Silver Ferret? That's a toughy. The physicist in me says "HECK NO!" But this is, after all, comic book type physics with RPG physics thrown on top of it...so yes.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

Ok' date=' lets throw some numbers in this:[/quote']

 

Except for the additional -2 OCV to hit SF, that sounds good. Mack never rolled to hit the FW, to it doesn't count as an attack. Nor is he at half DCV all of a sudden. (you didn't mention this, that's the effect of Sweeping).

[Rapier]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

Except for the additional -2 OCV to hit SF' date=' that sounds good. Mack never rolled to hit the FW, to it doesn't count as an attack. Nor is he at half DCV all of a sudden. (you didn't mention this, that's the effect of Sweeping).[/quote']

 

I figure that a -2 compensates for the fact that he just got nailed pretty hard and that is bound to throw him off a bit.

 

Although I could see saying if he rolls 50% more BODY than DEF of the FW, I'd drop the -2.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

The most ambiguous part is determining how many dice of damage gets rolled.

 

It seems reasonable that Greased Lightning could be running faster than 30".

 

It also seems reasonable that the IPE Force Wall could have lower than 14 PD.

 

How much damage that is inflicted on the Force Wall by GL is not necessarily going be the same amount of damage that GL takes from hitting the Force Wall (which by the KB rules can't be more dice than it's PD). It seems we need a 2 step damage checking process.

 

So with the stated numbers, if GL doesn't break through the FoWall he takes 14d6 damage and stops.

But, if his initial impact does break the FoWa he should take some smaller number (probably 1/2 of his velocity-only based Move Through damage that DID break the FoWall).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

So: sweep move throughs* - can't do them unless the targets are in adjacent hexes: good rule or rubbish rule?

 

 

 

* Which is the only sort of multiple move through the rules allow for, as far as I can see

[Dust Raven]

Re: Move Through Interception

 

I figure that a -2 compensates for the fact that he just got nailed pretty hard and that is bound to throw him off a bit.

 

Although I could see saying if he rolls 50% more BODY than DEF of the FW, I'd drop the -2.

According to the rules for FW, all it does is subtract from the damage of an attack aimed at a target on the other side (or stops it if not enough BODY is rolled). There is no additional penalty of any kind, even with only STUN gets through an no BODY. I'm thinking the same should apply when doing a Move Through against a target on the other side of a FW. I wouldn't have the FW reduce any of the damage to the target, but neither would I have the attack only take impact damage once.