Fantasy Travel Question

[Zane_Marlowe]

So I"m reading the Fantasy Hero travel table on page 333, and it's telling me that riding a mount is no faster than walking on foot. Travel values for walking and running (slow, and fast) are equal between the two modes. Now aside from the clear distinction in carrying capacity, doesn't it seem just obvious that horses will take you farther faster than if you're just on foot? Is there a rationale here I"m not getting?

[Lightning91]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

I don't understand....

 

In my FH on p.333, the riding horse is 0.5 KPH faster on easy and typical ground (note: walking on typical ground is 4.5 according to the errata, vice 5.5).

 

The two values are the same on rough ground, and you can't ride on very rough ground.

 

This seems appropriate to me.

[EvilDrPuma]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

Whose END would you rather burn all day: the horse's, or your own? I promise, if there are Long Term END rules on the table, you're going to go for the horse, which will typically have more END and more REC than a Heroic character.

[Kristopher]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

I've seen several references stating that a messenger on foot will cover 20 to 25 miles a day, while a messenger on horseback will cover 40 to 50 miles per day.

[Spence]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

I've seen several references stating that a messenger on foot will cover 20 to 25 miles a day' date=' while a messenger on horseback will cover 40 to 50 miles per day.[/quote']

 

Can cover.

 

If you don't want to founder the horse you won't really make too much more distance in a day, though riding will allow yu to outdistance those on foot since you can "rest" the horse a little by dismounting and walking. The main advantage to cavalry as a scouting force was they were great sprinters compared to men on foot, and the ride/walk/ride allowed more sustained travel giving more distance.

 

In order to get the 40 to 50 miles a day, you either trailed a string of remounts and released each horse as it became blown carrying you, or you used remounts from pre-established outposts, post houses or pony-express stations for example.

 

While an unencumbered horse will easily outrun or outwalk a man, once you pile on 300-500 pounds of rider, tack and gear, it will lose a lot of its natural advantage, and wear down fairly quickly if you insist on pushing the pace.

[Curufea]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

I don't know how well researched the travel stats are in the rulebook. So I recommend doing your own reference work on this.

[Spence]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

I don't know how well researched the travel stats are in the rulebook. So I recommend doing your own reference work on this.

 

Sound advice.

 

I took a look at the chart to refresh myself. It only has average KPH for casual travel which isn't too much different for walking. It has been a while since I did any serious riding, but when I was younger, especially when I was still at home and in school, my cousins and I spent our summers riding out to camp, fish and so on for days at a time. There wasn't much difference in "how fast", but there was a major difference in how much we could carry and how long we could do it. We could go further in a day mostly because we completely stopped to rest far less frequently, and for less time per stop till we made it to our camp site.

 

Of course we were never in a hurry either.

[Midas]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

So I"m reading the Fantasy Hero travel table on page 333' date=' and it's telling me that riding a mount is no faster than walking on foot. Travel values for walking and running (slow, and fast) are equal between the two modes. Now aside from the clear distinction in carrying capacity, doesn't it seem just obvious that horses will take you farther faster than if you're just on foot? Is there a rationale here I"m not getting?[/quote']

 

As I understand it, a marching horse can't forage, so you either have to carry grain in saddle bags (one day's worth space wise?), depend on a packhorse/mule/ox, or travel one day and feed, water, and rest the horse the next.

 

So yeah, as long as you can trade horses, you can go faster, but if you are travelling for distance, you won't make much more time.

 

Just my guess,

Midas

[Markdoc]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

Again, while I'm a bit dubious on the actual distances cited, I'll chime in with the rest - while horses can outpace men on foot in the short term, when it comes to sustained day to day travel, historically it seems they are not a great deal faster in good going and actually slower in rough going.

 

The exceptions to this are 1) if you are prepared to blow out your horse with a couple of days rough travel or 2) you have a string of horses, so each one can be lightly loaded and you can switch mounts - in which case you should be able to roughly double what a man on foot can do.

 

The biggest determinant of travel speed is actually food. A person on foot carrying his stuff, who can expect to have acomodation and food provided (ie: travelling along a road with plenty of inns) will do double or triple the distance per day of a person who has to forage and find a place to sleep, all things considered - if foraging is poor, probably more.

 

cheers, Mark

[Curufea]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

It should be noted though that official messengers did (in some cultures) have way stations where they could change horses.

[Zane_Marlowe]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

Wow! You guys are on top of this one! So to gather the threads together, the rationale seems to be something like: "you'll spend more time traveling, and spend more endurance (which the horse has in abundance) traveling faster on a mount than you would on foot; where horses are faster is just in the short periods of time, e.g., in combat." This seems perfectly legitimate given the reasons discussed so far.

 

I actually just looked up the Horse's running speed and endurance in the bestiary. They have a 40 END and a total running speed of 13", so what I may do is just rewrite the table (which is listed an optional alternative to calculating all the distances as they scale up) and scale accordingly. I'll post here again when I've got it done.

 

Thanks for the feedback!

[stewart]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

in my FH game, i simply worked it this way:

 

man (walking or running) and horse (walking): 20 ish miles per day.

 

a horse running can go 40 ish in one day, but it is exhusted by the end of it.

 

a char can push a horse to go 40 miles for 2 days (which gives the character teh ability to cover 80 miles in two days when walking it would take 4) but this destroys the poor horse (it goes lame after).

 

i don't know how exactly accurate that is, but it is an easy mechanic for everyone to remember. you have your normal miles per day (20), which you can double once (to 40) but then your horse NEEDS to recover, and you can double it again (for 80) but you loose your horse.

 

and of course, you make the characters unburden their horse the faster they want to travel.

 

: )

[Zane_Marlowe]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

Well, considerations about encumbrance are already built into the travel table, and are probably fine as built, but the question I had arose from what happens when an unencumbered rider on an otherwise unencumbered riding horse tries to get an average speed out of that horse in the course of a single traveling day. Given their naturally different speeds, I thought the table wasn't quite right, and am now working on a revision that seems reasonable given those differences.

 

So now I've been playing around with these speeds in Excel, and I'm finding that for an 8 hour travel day at conventional combat speeds (SPD + Running) you get the following: human = 35.71 miles, horse = 116.06 miles. That seems as wildly unrealistic as the text suggests, so assuming that average speed is less than combat speed, I tinker to get the following: human adjusted movement 4" = 23.81 miles, horse adjusted movement 7" = 62.50 miles.

 

Does 20-25 miles per day for humans and 50-60 miles per day for horses in relatively normal travel conditions sound unreasonable? Seems roughly okay to me, but I'm curious to know what further discussion reveals.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

Two minutes of research shows that the suggestions in FH are not too bad. The definitive work that most authors seem to quote is "Alexander the Great and the Logistics of the Macedonian Army."

I would guess that 20 miles a day is sustained travel with a fully packed traveling horse. For shorter distances, and less heavily encumbered, you could travel much farther.

 

Keith "On a road, take a bicycle" Curtis

[Midas]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

For shorter distances...you could travel much farther.

 

Y'know, in context that honestly makes sense.

Midas

[Manic Typist]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

Mounted- you'll travel further in a day, not faster. You need to rest less often, for less time, and can carry more gear. Additionally, some rivers that might prove troublesome for a person on foot can easily be crossed by a horse (of course others are still too deep/fast, etc).

 

Not to mention, if things get really rough, you can eat the horses.

[Midas]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

Does 20-25 miles per day for humans and 50-60 miles per day for horses in relatively normal travel conditions sound unreasonable? Seems roughly okay to me, but I'm curious to know what further discussion reveals.

 

Well, If I recall my early California history correctly, the reason the Missions were spaced 30 miles apart was because a travelling friar -presumably on foot, with a pack burro- could leave one mission in the morning and arrive at the next by that evening. So yeah, that sounds about right.

 

You also need to figure in size of the party. The larger the group the more time it takes for something to get done. For a modern example, one car can travel 100 mph down a freeway. One million cars can do about ten mph, if they are lucky.

 

Midas

[Curufea]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

The definitive work that most authors seem to quote is "Alexander the Great and the Logistics of the Macedonian Army."

 

I wish they wouldn't - the horses were a different breed, armies travel at slower rates and carry more, the terrain in the Mediterranean area is different from western Europe. There are other sources and time periods.

For example for the rpg I recently wrote I discovered a nice work on the economics of 18th century France - travel from Paris to Lyon took about 5 days in a dilligence (one of the more comfortable stage coaches). It travels around 2 leagues per hour (about 6mph or so). Whereas postal riders travel on horse 5-6 mph and generally cover 50-60 miles per day during that period.

- from "Economic and Social conditions in France during the Eighteenth Century by Hennri Sée translated by Edwin H. Zedel, 1927" (http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/see/18thCentury.pdf )

[Spence]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

 

Does 20-25 miles per day for humans and 50-60 miles per day for horses in relatively normal travel conditions sound unreasonable? Seems roughly okay to me, but I'm curious to know what further discussion reveals.

 

If the party consists of one horse per member, then I would shorten the mounted distance considerably.

 

As has been mentioned, messenger/couriers managed 40-50 a day, but they used remounts. Unless the a column was pushing their mounts and accepting the loss of horses, you really won’t be that much faster than 30-35 a day. And if you force march a horse at a high pace for a complete day you will just founder it.

 

If I am mounted with tack and gear, I can ride for a period, say an hour, I then dismount and we walk leading the horse for 30 minutes. Then we stop and both rest, cool down a bit more and water 30 minutes. Repeat. Remember the more the horse carries the slower the pace and the longer the rest and we are usually talking several hundred pounds of armor, weapons and other assorted stuff, not to mention the riders 200-250(?) pounds. Plus a bit of cool down is very important to prevent injury to the horse, which is why you walk prior to rest and are careful before watering. If an overheated horse drinks too soon or too quickly there can be problems. If I am in a hurry I can extend it to 1 hour riding, 1 hour leading and 30 minute rest.

 

If I am on foot with pack and gear. I march for an hour and rest 30 minutes. In a hurry I march 30 minutes, take a 5 minute break, march for 30, take five and then after 2 hours rest for 30.

 

In a 12 hour period this would give the mounted traveler somewhere around 9 hours of march to 3 hours rest (1hr ride, 30min walk, 30 min rest, 1hr ride, 30min walk, 30 min rest, 1hr ride, 30min walk, 30 min rest, 1hr ride, 30min walk, 30 min rest, 1hr ride, 30min walk, 30 min rest, 1hr ride, 30min walk, 30 min rest).

 

In the same period a man on foot would get 8 hours march with 4 resting. (march 1hr, rest 30min, march 1hr, rest 30min, march 1hr, rest 30min, march 1hr, rest 30min, march 1hr, rest 30min, march 1hr, rest 30min, march 1hr, rest 30min, march 1hr, rest 30min).

 

Well trained troops can increase the pace considerably for short periods. But not sustained if they want to be any good at the other end.

 

One of the most common misconceptions is that having a horse will automatically allow you to double or better travel speed/distance. This can be true with preparation, post stations or remount strings. But one mount per member with no replacements, no. You will get there faster no doubt, and the longer the distance the greater the lead. You will also get there much more rested. But you won't double the distance or speed for more than short "bursts". There was a reason horses were abandoned overnight once a reliable car/truck hit the world. Horses require a LOT of upkeep and care.

 

 

The ratio I would use for common travel is 20-25 for walking, up to 30-35 for mounted.

[Spence]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

I wish they wouldn't - the horses were a different breed, armies travel at slower rates and carry more, the terrain in the Mediterranean area is different from western Europe. There are other sources and time periods.

For example for the rpg I recently wrote I discovered a nice work on the economics of 18th century France - travel from Paris to Lyon took about 5 days in a dilligence (one of the more comfortable stage coaches). It travels around 2 leagues per hour (about 6mph or so). Whereas postal riders travel on horse 5-6 mph and generally cover 50-60 miles per day during that period.

- from "Economic and Social conditions in France during the Eighteenth Century by Hennri Sée translated by Edwin H. Zedel, 1927" (http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/see/18thCentury.pdf )

 

Yes, exactly. But one thing to remember is Stage lines and postal riders never covered the entire route using the same coach team or mount. They switched out the horses. For a private party they usually don't have access to remounts every few miles. If they try to maintain such a pace with a single team/mount they will quickly drive their horses into the ground.

[Curufea]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

Yes' date=' exactly. But one thing to remember is Stage lines and postal riders never covered the entire route using the same coach team or mount. They switched out the horses. For a private party they usually don't have access to remounts every few miles. If they try to maintain such a pace with a single team/mount they will quickly drive their horses into the ground.[/quote']

 

Yes - it does seem to be a stable of the fantasy genre that adventurers never use public transport

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

The ratio I would use for common travel is 20-25 for walking, up to 30-35 for mounted.

 

For a completely realistic horse, I would agree with Spence and others, that a horse doesn't go much further than a person can. Carry more gear, allows the rider not to get tired, etc, but not further.

 

For a magical horse (or a horse that can receive magical assistance), then 2 or 2.5 times isn't unrealistic. Or you don't give a darn about the horse...

 

Note that any magical traveling spell will leave horses (even magical ones) in the dust.

[Markdoc]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

Yes - it does seem to be a stable of the fantasy genre that adventurers never use public transport

 

Well, buses don't run to most places that adventurers go to. When was the last time you saw a number 95 to the Lair of the Lich-king?

 

cheers, Mark

[Basil]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

Well, buses don't run to most places that adventurers go to. When was the last time you saw a number 95 to the Lair of the Lich-king?

 

cheers, Mark

 

Well, I could make a joke about the bus lines around Bill Gates's house...

[BrilliantHelm]

Re: Fantasy Travel Question

 

I don't understand....

 

In my FH on p.333, the riding horse is 0.5 KPH faster on easy and typical ground (note: walking on typical ground is 4.5 according to the errata, vice 5.5).

 

The two values are the same on rough ground, and you can't ride on very rough ground.

 

This seems appropriate to me.

 

Lightning is correct. I have been around horses and ridden horses for decades. When it comes to rocky ground, I get off and lead them so they won't go lame.